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On March 03 2011 04:30 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 12:40 GinDo wrote:
Wow only a few months ago Zerg was saying the same for Terran.Especially this line thats bolded.Ironically the only change that happened was an increase in roach range, but that seriously didn;t really change anything in the match up, but zerg stopped complaining as much.
1-range on the Roaches did have a huge impact. Roaches can finally get in range of the Terran army and shoot them. Before Roaches got that one range upgrade tons of units would die before they even got a shot in. The same thing still happens, but now that the ranges are closer, it makes it a lot easier. Either way, it wasn't just the roach range upgrade that made it easier on Zergs. Terran did get a lot of nerfs as well.
I hardly ever see roaches in ZvT unless terran goes mech. The big change was the nerf to tanks vs unarmored units allowed ling/bling to be viable. Ling/bling/muta vs tank/marine is a pretty even fight right now, but can you imagine if tanks were still doing +15 damage? It would pretty much be unplayable.
In retrospect, it's clear that zerg was right to complain about the ZvT matchup a few months back. So just maybe they're right to complain about the current ZvP as well?
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On March 02 2011 12:40 GinDo wrote:
Wow only a few months ago Zerg was saying the same for Terran.Especially this line thats bolded.Ironically the only change that happened was an increase in roach range, but that seriously didn;t really change anything in the match up, but zerg stopped complaining as much.
Back on Topic- It seems the problem Zerg is having revolves around Splash. Tanks, Collosi, Storm. Blame Blizzard on their Clumpy game engine.
Zerg=Small units with low HP that Clump.
Hate to break it to you but it wasn't the roach range increase that changed that... it was the reaper nerf. In addition the bolded line is still accurate and Zerg QQ never really stopped (for a reason)
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For me, hydras are my my ant-protoss-one baser. Except for 4gate in which you can't get them in time (but roaches are fine anyway), hydras dominate protoss one base attacks. Void rays, immortals, phoenix, etc. are all ineffective when you have some hydras with lings/roaches.
They really are a fantastic unit, its just too bad they melt to collossi.
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On March 03 2011 09:46 dave333 wrote:
For me, hydras are my my ant-protoss-one baser. Except for 4gate in which you can't get them in time (but roaches are fine anyway), hydras dominate protoss one base attacks. Void rays, immortals, phoenix, etc. are all ineffective when you have some hydras with lings/roaches.
They really are a fantastic unit, its just too bad they melt to collossi.
unfortunately their use got quite reduced as barely any good protoss is playing one base in a while
though i recently watched some games where hydras were used with OL drops against protoss FE into phoenix play (i think foxmoon vs atnsocke)
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Playing as zerg i have built starts around lings, muta, infesters, roaches, and broodlords (never really get around to ultra, never get enough gas =P). But I have never built anything around the hydra cuz you tend to just get rolled over (by you i mean me.). I mean im sure if i had the control of a bitchin rock star from mars i could make something happen but seeing as i dont, the hydras only come out in very rare specific situations. This general "feel" alone says to me something needs to be done about hydra.
bear in mind this is the opinion of a gold level player so yes obviously it could be more of an issue with my skill level than anything else but by far the hydra is the least used unit in the game for me. Right behind reapers.
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I'm curious how Moon will fare against Ace in the finals. it looks like Moon absolutely loves hydras be it for overlord drops or for making up the majority of his ground army, and he makes it work by making enough Corruptors to take down Collossi down fast leaving the Protoss ball with a unit comp that Hydras are effective against (except for HTs).
however, I don't think Ace can tech rush for HTs because of the threat of aggression from Moon. Moon has definitely shown a willingness to attempt doom drops or roach/ling pressure like on G5 Meta against Squirtle.
anyways, curious to see if Moon can continue to make his hydralisk heavy unit comp work for him against Ace or whether Ace will punish Moon for using a unit that many consider to become too much of a liability the longer the game goes.
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It just gets crushed by collo. The big problem i feel is that the Collos aoe is in a striaght line so goodbye arch idea.
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i was very surprised to see moon succeed with that kind of play. i think its going in the right direction making use of zerg unit mobility and dragging the p around without ever really having to face the p in bad spots open and vulnerable to the p deathball. id love to see him use nydus aswell. but really gotta hand it to moon for playing such amazing games.
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hydras are the bane existence of any toss ranged unit, counting aoe units as their own class even if ranged  . And hydras are normal speed ... just not normal for someone used to zerg. Anyway since the hydra is such a beast it has some units that are beasts when dealing with hydras. So plan B for the zerg, get rid of the non ranged units and lose your army at the same time, build up hydras and run over the rest.
Plan A is do a hydra push from 2 bases do some nice damage and retreat in time, and techswitch to conter the hydra conter, so you can hold back your hydras until the hydra conter is gone and win.
tosses seem to struggle abit against 2 base aggression if they are rushing with their tech and expanded fast. If this 2 base aggression is successful the toss is slowed in the tech and you got the time to conter it and all the toss can do is try to get 200 supply and look how the zerg is taking the whole map.
One reason is probably because there are alot of possibilitys for the zerg to go at once lair is done. And when you tech and expanded you can't prepare for all of it.
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i guess its not worth pointing out that hydras that cant run away(forcefield) lose to zealots and cost double as much and lose to stalkers when shooting through gaurdian shield
where does this myth come from that hydras are a "good" unit vs gateway. they are about even cost for cost, if you are lucky or your playing the only protoss in the whole game who doesnt like sentries. and then you are opening yourself up to getting analy fisted by colossi in about 3/4 minutes time.
and saying that hydras are normal speed is stupid. i played around a bit with hydra ling earlier against a friend but i could barely touch his units because even on an "open" map like shakuras by the time i can catch the colossi he can get up a hill with them. zerg units need to be as fast as they are to ever get a favorable battle area, right now even on creep the hydras speed is pathetic.
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On February 26 2011 13:10 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, so it pretty much makes sense that they have the same speed, dont you think? also, hydras are faster on creep. Except Colossi are way more powerful. So Hydralisk should be more mobile to compensate. I'm not saying hydra should be fast, just fast er. Don't you think it's a little dull to have in a game "Well derp I made the wrong unit!" There should be some advantage the hydralisk has over colossus. Right now it's just "If they have colossus, don't make hydra."
Also Collosi cost a hell of alot more and are a bit higher up(Not by much granted) tech wise.
Collosi -300 mineral, 200 Gas 75 second build time 6 supply
Hydralisk - 100 mineral, 50 gas 33 second build time 2 supply
So with costing over 3x as much, why should the hdyralisk have an advantage over its counter that costs 3x as much? that would be just silly...
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Being even for cost against gateway units is good. That's the idea behind zerg; you get strong economic/production abilities and overwhelm your opponent despite being less cost efficient. The fact that hydras are even for cost against gateway tips them in zergs favor.
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Hydra's are just principle reinforce units, along with Zerglings, that are MADE to be streetsweepers that prevent and suitable counter from the Protoss once it's lost its critical mass ball.
Hydras are, in abstract, utterly overpowering, each creep highway hydralisk is the proverbial equivalent of a superdurable perma-stimmed marine and a half. But, as a Protoss player, I feel as though they've been short changed. Give Hydralisks another two points of damage to make them utterly despicable, and let's call it even :D
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On March 05 2011 11:08 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Hydras are, in abstract, utterly overpowering, each creep highway hydralisk is the proverbial equivalent of a superdurable perma-stimmed marine and a half. :D
i think you might be inflating the Hydras dps just a little.
3 roaches cost the same as 2 hydras, 3 roaches have 24 dps 2 hydras have 29-ish dps
with +2 attack its even worse,
3r = 30 dps
2h = 33-ish dps
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Hydras atm have a pretty limited role in ZvP currently.
Roach + Hydra is only slightly more effective than pure Roach or Roach + Ling vs pure gateway. Any gateway army is going to do OK against any Roach +/- Ling +/- Hydra comp with good positioning, terrain and forcefields.
If they are going collo, it hard counters any of the above unit comps. If anything, I think going Hydra against collo is a bad move because it arrives around the same time colossus does anyway. The days of a timing push with Roach Hydra are gone, the Protoss builds have refined, and they will get collo out in time to stop it. You are either better off going allin with ling / roach +/- drops or nydas (as FD tried to do in the GSL recently) before collo spawns. Or skipping hydra and getting a good number of corrupters faster.
Vs stargate I think Hydra are only bad vs a bad protoss (heavy VR without collo or whatever). Vs phoenix harrass a few spores and queens are fine.
The only role for Hydra ZvP right now is vs gateway immortal, which is rare, and also quite hard to differentiate from gateway collo.
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I think Hydras play a very limited role against Protoss (and no role at all VS Terran).
They´re dps is good, but imo they dont counter Gateway units in a way that they are a must have against them.
Take this example: 4gate against Zerg is a strong (all in) build because Zerg doesnt have more economy then Toss and if Zergs not going blindly against he won´t have Speedlings and Roaches.
So every Warp-in Toss can decide if he wants to have more Roach counters or more Speedling/Zergling counters on the field.
But once u went on to the midgame you will have Zerglingspeed and Roaches with Roachspeed and if u want it even Burrow/Regeneration for your Roaches. And this unit combo is absolutly fine vs Gateway attacks. (ofc it depends very strongly on positioning, ForceFields etc. how the battle will end but its the same for Hydras)
If you go more Hydras instead of Roaches its way more gas expenssive but performs equally to upgraded Roach/ling against Gateway units.
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On February 26 2011 12:58 Valcio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 12:56 dark fury wrote:
The only problem with the colossus is that it counters Hydralisks. That doesnt mean its overpowered or anything like that. You are not supposed to be able to kill a colossus based army with a hydralisk based army, just like you dont beat a marauder based army with stalkers. With blink micro you can.
I'd love to see u try. Marauders beat stalkers hands down with stim pack and same economy. The stalkers don't stand a chance, however they may wish to jump here and there.
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On March 05 2011 10:40 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:10 DoubleReed wrote:Yeah, so it pretty much makes sense that they have the same speed, dont you think? also, hydras are faster on creep. Except Colossi are way more powerful. So Hydralisk should be more mobile to compensate. I'm not saying hydra should be fast, just fast er. Don't you think it's a little dull to have in a game "Well derp I made the wrong unit!" There should be some advantage the hydralisk has over colossus. Right now it's just "If they have colossus, don't make hydra." Also Collosi cost a hell of alot more and are a bit higher up(Not by much granted) tech wise. Collosi -300 mineral, 200 Gas 75 second build time 6 supply Hydralisk - 100 mineral, 50 gas 33 second build time 2 supply So with costing over 3x as much, why should the hdyralisk have an advantage over its counter that costs 3x as much? that would be just silly...
You are going to have like 5 colossi... My 30 hydra will melt to your 5 colossi if you have gateway support; Now my unit costs more.
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Hydras either need to
Have more hp
OR
back to 1 food, tier 1, and speed and range upgradeable + damage nerf
You either make it a heavy dps unit, or you make it a zerg unit, easily massasble.
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i recommend all of you to watch SanZenith vs OGS.TheWind
+ Show Spoiler +Even though thewind lost the series 2-1, especialy in the last game on xel naga he showed GREAT strategy and uderstanding of the matchup, dropping at the perfect timing while taking out expansions. He managed to lose the game cause of some really bad mistake (leaving corruptors on H position at the opponents xel naga tower, attacking with 6 brood lords but no corrupters/hydras to counter void rays
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EPT
