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United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2011 11:42 ZidaneTribal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do. Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more.. Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?". you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them. Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!! sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light My life for auir All protoss needs to do is turtle until they have about a max army, any attack zerg can do will do little to no damage. Also early roach rush only kills the greedy protosses or those who don't know what they're doing. I agree zergs should experiment more but when it takes a drastically better zerg to beat a protoss of the same calibre something is wrong in the concept of the match up.
Uh, what? If the Protoss is of the same caliber, than the zerg isn't drastically better. That's what it means to be of the same caliber.
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On March 02 2011 12:43 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:42 ZidaneTribal wrote:On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
...
Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do. Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more.. Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?". you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them. Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!! sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light My life for auir All protoss needs to do is turtle until they have about a max army, any attack zerg can do will do little to no damage. Also early roach rush only kills the greedy protosses or those who don't know what they're doing. I agree zergs should experiment more but when it takes a drastically better zerg to beat a protoss of the same calibre something is wrong in the concept of the match up. Uh, what? If the Protoss is of the same caliber, than the zerg isn't drastically better. That's what it means to be of the same caliber.
I think we all know what he means is that it's tough for a Z player to beat a P of the same calibre and the Z player has to be drastically better to do so when playing a macro game.
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On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:
Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more..
Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?".
you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them.
Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!!
sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light
My life for auir
lol 10/10. THIS is how you troll.
/facepalm
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Hydras definitely have their spot in ZvP. Roach corruptor may be the way to deal with the colossus/gateway unit ball but the reinforcements when attacking this army are really a huge factor obviously. If the colossus count is 2-3 and you have 12-15 corruptors you should be reinforcing with ling/hydra to deal with the gateway units more effectively. Basically if you think the colossus will go down with your roach/corruptor push it is smart to use hydras, if you don't think the colossus will go down then you need to keep going roach/corruptor, in my opinion.
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I'd really disagree with some of your points in roach play. Roaches aren't exceptional against gateway units, they do fairly well with the speed upgrade but in even numbers it's not a complete domination. I'd say that you will normally get a hydra den in ZvP. People will argue this to death but even with colossi out I feel roach/hydra is stronger than pure roach. Hydras offer the greater range which lets them establish a good concave easier, you claim you can do the same thing with roaches in large numbers but with space constraints and realism I don't see that happening. Hydras also simply do much more damage than roaches. This isn't new to anyone but it's important to remember. Hydras often lose because their low health means they die before the can do their damage. With roaches tanking and Hydras doing their stuff it works quite well.
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I don't feel like the hydra is the weak link in this match up, it's the roach. I'm hoping that perhaps Day[9] will do a Funday Monday where Zerg are constrained to not making any roaches in ZvP. I've found that:
1) I can macro much better due to the freed up supply alone.
2) I can tech and get upgrades much quicker.
3) Roaches do lousy DPS in mid-late game, and end up blocking out other units which do better DPS.
They are suppose to tank damage, yet all they do is block space and supply of other potentially better units. You may as well use banelings instead - your roaches wouldn't live through the fight anyways, so you may as well do all your DPS up-front and let your other units try and clean up the mess.
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The thing is you cannot play roach only defensively. At least not for long against a solid gateway mix with sentries and proper ff control.
Roach hydra is a much better choice with proper creep spread. I usually play them semi-aggressive and when i lose the roaches i pull back and wait for roach reinforcements.
The key point in playing roach/hydra with our without corruptors are usually the upgrades. If you get a pretty fast 2/2 upgrade with hydra range and roach speed, or generally manage to stay ahead in upgrades, then there are several timings when you can kinda push the protoss or prevent him from taking a third or sniping it. Furthermore hydras simply give me the security to not die to all kinds of crap Protoss can pull and thus the security to drone up when necessary.
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now it is the roach that is weak?
Roach is by far the easily massable early unit in the game.
Good HP, Decent DMG, Larva efficient, scales great with upgrades.
Of course the roach gets weaker in the later stages, but that doesn't make it useless, it may be useless for your macro strategy. don't make your own inability to use roaches effectivly for fact.
if Zerg learns to play more aggressiv they will learn that Roaches are one off the best units of aggression (earlygame)
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I'm actually beginning to use much more Hydras in ZvP and less Roaches, just cuz a maxed Army made out of Roaches is too weak against a Deathball, but if you use your Corruptors well to snipe the Collossi before the fight get's in full-swing, the high DPS of the Hydras and the better spread because of their higher Range will work very well against Stalker/Zealot/VR's and hopefully not that many Collossi. If there are very few Collossi left and not many Zealots on the field, I'll reinforce with Speedlings and otherwise with Roaches.
I also like skipping Roaches if I don't scout a 4-Warpgate and on certain Maps, where it's easy to defend with Spine-Crawlers, I skip Roaches even if I see a 4-Warpgate. This just gets you a much faster tech and faster Hydras, which is very good against any sort of early Air-Aggression or any Midgame-pushes without Collossi.
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On February 26 2011 18:03 Viperbird wrote:
Was bored and did some tests in the unit tester... 20 hydras vs 20 stalkers, they come out dead even, sometimes 1 stalker left, sometimes 1 hydra left. ( 0 updgrades, off creep, hydra range upgrade for even range on both units)
Then just for the heck of it put 150 of each against each other, same results, 2 stalkers left over.
Stalkers have 2x the total HP and Hydras have 2x the dps. Also hydras dont do bonus damage whereas stalkers do more to armored.
Sure stalkers do cost more than hydras, but only 25 minerals more, not a lot. Usually gas is the limiting factor. I think perhaps we are misusing the word "counter" here.
25 minerals extra per stalker with 20 stalkers is 500 minerals. So go make 20 zerglings for equal cost and tell me how that battle turns out.
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One of the problems I face in this match up (and hydralisks play a factor) is that:
If protoss turtles on 2 (or 3) bases I have a hard time winning the game. Why? The "appropriate" response as a zerg is to take the map. The problem with taking the map is simply that it doesn't reward zerg enough! Even if you can max faster, have a higher econ, reinforce faster, throw waves of units at someone, it doesn't matter since the 200/200 protoss ball will only lose 20 supply when you chuck your roach/hydra/corruptor/ling army at it. I think realistically zerg needs to tech to Broods faster OR have a highly mobile muta/ling army hitting different spots and ready to tech switch on a dime. "taking the map" just doesn't seem to reward zerg enough.
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On March 03 2011 01:11 DiracMonopole wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 18:03 Viperbird wrote:
Was bored and did some tests in the unit tester... 20 hydras vs 20 stalkers, they come out dead even, sometimes 1 stalker left, sometimes 1 hydra left. ( 0 updgrades, off creep, hydra range upgrade for even range on both units)
Then just for the heck of it put 150 of each against each other, same results, 2 stalkers left over.
Stalkers have 2x the total HP and Hydras have 2x the dps. Also hydras dont do bonus damage whereas stalkers do more to armored.
Sure stalkers do cost more than hydras, but only 25 minerals more, not a lot. Usually gas is the limiting factor. I think perhaps we are misusing the word "counter" here. 25 minerals extra per stalker with 20 stalkers is 500 minerals. So go make 20 zerglings for equal cost and tell me how that battle turns out.
His point is that Hydras are not as hard a counter to gateway units as many people seem to think - you often hear arguments that resemble "hydras rape gateway units!" or something similar, implying that the relation between Hydras and gateway units resembles that of Blue-Flame Hellions against Zerglings or Banelings against Marines.
Which is simply exaggerated - they are cost-efficient and even better with upgrades since the attack upgrade of Z scales "faster" then the toss defensive upgrades (because of the separated shield/armor upgrades), but still very dependant on Lings/Roaches to tank damage for them.
People give Hydras too much and Roaches not enough credit, which is imho the only thing those figures are meant to show.
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On March 03 2011 03:38 lambnrice wrote:
One of the problems I face in this match up (and hydralisks play a factor) is that:
If protoss turtles on 2 (or 3) bases I have a hard time winning the game. Why? The "appropriate" response as a zerg is to take the map. The problem with taking the map is simply that it doesn't reward zerg enough! Even if you can max faster, have a higher econ, reinforce faster, throw waves of units at someone, it doesn't matter since the 200/200 protoss ball will only lose 20 supply when you chuck your roach/hydra/corruptor/ling army at it. I think realistically zerg needs to tech to Broods faster OR have a highly mobile muta/ling army hitting different spots and ready to tech switch on a dime. "taking the map" just doesn't seem to reward zerg enough.
Well... When you have taken the map, you are on t3, Ultras to kill FFs and even possibly BL.
Roach/Hydra/Corruptor isn't the best late-game strat around. It's very good in mid-game tho'. You basically have units that are less supply efficient than the Protoss army.
Ultras to kill FF, a buttload of Banelings and something else. He will definitely lose more than 20 supply worth of units.
Getting rid of your mid-game Roach/Hydra/Corruptor to free supply for t3 is another case tho'
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On March 03 2011 04:18 Airact wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 03:38 lambnrice wrote:
One of the problems I face in this match up (and hydralisks play a factor) is that:
If protoss turtles on 2 (or 3) bases I have a hard time winning the game. Why? The "appropriate" response as a zerg is to take the map. The problem with taking the map is simply that it doesn't reward zerg enough! Even if you can max faster, have a higher econ, reinforce faster, throw waves of units at someone, it doesn't matter since the 200/200 protoss ball will only lose 20 supply when you chuck your roach/hydra/corruptor/ling army at it. I think realistically zerg needs to tech to Broods faster OR have a highly mobile muta/ling army hitting different spots and ready to tech switch on a dime. "taking the map" just doesn't seem to reward zerg enough. Well... When you have taken the map, you are on t3, Ultras to kill FFs and even possibly BL. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor isn't the best late-game strat around. It's very good in mid-game tho'. You basically have units that are less supply efficient than the Protoss army. Ultras to kill FF, a buttload of Banelings and something else. He will definitely lose more than 20 supply worth of units. Getting rid of your mid-game Roach/Hydra/Corruptor to free supply for t3 is another case tho'
You just told Zergs to use the 2 least cost-effective units in the game against one of the most cost-effective death balls in the game. Logic, ftw? You would waste a ton of money on Ultras and Banelings to kill a whole 60 food if you got lucky. Banelings won't do shit if the Protoss spreads his units out a little bit, which isn't that hard to do. And if your Ultras get sniped quickly, FFs will just make you run.
On March 02 2011 12:40 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:42 ZidaneTribal wrote:On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
...
Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do. Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more.. Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?". you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them. Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!! sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light My life for auir All protoss needs to do is turtle until they have about a max army, any attack zerg can do will do little to no damage. Also early roach rush only kills the greedy protosses or those who don't know what they're doing. I agree zergs should experiment more but when it takes a drastically better zerg to beat a protoss of the same calibre something is wrong in the concept of the match up. Wow only a few months ago Zerg was saying the same for Terran.Especially this line thats bolded.Ironically the only change that happened was an increase in roach range, but that seriously didn;t really change anything in the match up, but zerg stopped complaining as much. Back on Topic- It seems the problem Zerg is having revolves around Splash. Tanks, Collosi, Storm. Blame Blizzard on their Clumpy game engine. Zerg=Small units with low HP that Clump.
1-range on the Roaches did have a huge impact. Roaches can finally get in range of the Terran army and shoot them. Before Roaches got that one range upgrade tons of units would die before they even got a shot in. The same thing still happens, but now that the ranges are closer, it makes it a lot easier.
Either way, it wasn't just the roach range upgrade that made it easier on Zergs. Terran did get a lot of nerfs as well.
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If Blizzard increases Hydras - actually my favourite unit in sc1 - speed, I'm going to switch to Zerg.
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I think a core issue is that more bases aren't rewarded enough. As you move past the bases, you get less and less benefit because of the supply needed to run those bases. At most, you want three bases and maybe a few gas only bases because more bases than that just eats up too much supply in workers. This is obviously primarily a problem with zerg, since we need more bases for the stronger econ, but more bases means less army supply.
The strength of two base collossus/void ray is unbelievable given that its....two bases. It should take way more than two bases to develop a ball like that. In BW, the end case scenario was both zerg and protoss fighting to hold expo since the main/nat would be completely eaten up. You would use your more agile zerg force (cracklings and defilers) to try and snipe expos while the protoss ball would move around.
But now, the amount of stuff you can pump out of two base and small map size means this doesn't happen as much. Instead, you can get this enormous protoss deathball that can go win the game immediately. BW did not have such a deathball; you had reavers and templar as the primary toss power units, neither of which compare to collossi when it comes to making an uber deathball. Not to mention dark swarm/plague gave the zerg some extra edge as well.
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On March 03 2011 04:30 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 04:18 Airact wrote:On March 03 2011 03:38 lambnrice wrote:
One of the problems I face in this match up (and hydralisks play a factor) is that:
If protoss turtles on 2 (or 3) bases I have a hard time winning the game. Why? The "appropriate" response as a zerg is to take the map. The problem with taking the map is simply that it doesn't reward zerg enough! Even if you can max faster, have a higher econ, reinforce faster, throw waves of units at someone, it doesn't matter since the 200/200 protoss ball will only lose 20 supply when you chuck your roach/hydra/corruptor/ling army at it. I think realistically zerg needs to tech to Broods faster OR have a highly mobile muta/ling army hitting different spots and ready to tech switch on a dime. "taking the map" just doesn't seem to reward zerg enough. Well... When you have taken the map, you are on t3, Ultras to kill FFs and even possibly BL. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor isn't the best late-game strat around. It's very good in mid-game tho'. You basically have units that are less supply efficient than the Protoss army. Ultras to kill FF, a buttload of Banelings and something else. He will definitely lose more than 20 supply worth of units. Getting rid of your mid-game Roach/Hydra/Corruptor to free supply for t3 is another case tho' You just told Zergs to use the 2 least cost-effective units in the game against one of the most cost-effective death balls in the game. Logic, ftw? You would waste a ton of money on Ultras and Banelings to kill a whole 60 food if you got lucky. Banelings won't do shit if the Protoss spreads his units out a little bit, which isn't that hard to do. And if your Ultras get sniped quickly, FFs will just make you run. Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 12:40 GinDo wrote:On March 02 2011 11:42 ZidaneTribal wrote:On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
...
Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do. Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more.. Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?". you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them. Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!! sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light My life for auir All protoss needs to do is turtle until they have about a max army, any attack zerg can do will do little to no damage. Also early roach rush only kills the greedy protosses or those who don't know what they're doing. I agree zergs should experiment more but when it takes a drastically better zerg to beat a protoss of the same calibre something is wrong in the concept of the match up. Wow only a few months ago Zerg was saying the same for Terran.Especially this line thats bolded.Ironically the only change that happened was an increase in roach range, but that seriously didn;t really change anything in the match up, but zerg stopped complaining as much. Back on Topic- It seems the problem Zerg is having revolves around Splash. Tanks, Collosi, Storm. Blame Blizzard on their Clumpy game engine. Zerg=Small units with low HP that Clump. 1-range on the Roaches did have a huge impact. Roaches can finally get in range of the Terran army and shoot them. Before Roaches got that one range upgrade tons of units would die before they even got a shot in. The same thing still happens, but now that the ranges are closer, it makes it a lot easier.
Really? Every TvZ I pray the Zerg goes Roach so i can roffle stomp him. Any Tech Terran gets pretty much counters Roaches. Marines,Maruaders, Tanks. The onlything that patch did was make it so Roach all ins are stronger. But no change, Roaches still crap in TvZ
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His point is that Hydras are not as hard a counter to gateway units as many people seem to think - you often hear arguments that resemble "hydras rape gateway units!" or something similar, implying that the relation between Hydras and gateway units resembles that of Blue-Flame Hellions against Zerglings or Banelings against Marines.
Which is simply exaggerated - they are cost-efficient and even better with upgrades since the attack upgrade of Z scales "faster" then the toss defensive upgrades (because of the separated shield/armor upgrades), but still very dependant on Lings/Roaches to tank damage for them. Of course they need something to tank damage, they are far too fragile for their DPS to be put at the front line. It' would be a bit like throwing colossi at an equal cost of roaches, the colossi will die, but the unit is still are very effective against groups of roaches.
10 zealots will defeat 10 hydras, even without charge, but if you replace 2 hydras with 8 zerglings, the zerg wins overwhelmigly. You just need something to cover the hydras whenever you make some.
Note that I don't play zerg, so I can't speak about roaches or hydras vs gateway.
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On March 02 2011 20:02 freetgy wrote:
now it is the roach that is weak?
Roach is by far the easily massable early unit in the game.
Good HP, Decent DMG, Larva efficient, scales great with upgrades.
Of course the roach gets weaker in the later stages, but that doesn't make it useless, it may be useless for your macro strategy. don't make your own inability to use roaches effectivly for fact.
if Zerg learns to play more aggressiv they will learn that Roaches are one off the best units of aggression (earlygame)
First off, roach is more massable than banelings? They are the same cost, and banelings are less food, so I must disagree with that statement.
Secondly, Roaches aren't useless, but I don't see a reason to make them over banelings. I don't roach rush or be aggressive early with roaches, since it forces you to justify their cost by doing damage to the P economy.
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On March 03 2011 04:18 Airact wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 03:38 lambnrice wrote:
One of the problems I face in this match up (and hydralisks play a factor) is that:
If protoss turtles on 2 (or 3) bases I have a hard time winning the game. Why? The "appropriate" response as a zerg is to take the map. The problem with taking the map is simply that it doesn't reward zerg enough! Even if you can max faster, have a higher econ, reinforce faster, throw waves of units at someone, it doesn't matter since the 200/200 protoss ball will only lose 20 supply when you chuck your roach/hydra/corruptor/ling army at it. I think realistically zerg needs to tech to Broods faster OR have a highly mobile muta/ling army hitting different spots and ready to tech switch on a dime. "taking the map" just doesn't seem to reward zerg enough. Well... When you have taken the map, you are on t3, Ultras to kill FFs and even possibly BL.
This is flawed logic. It can't be assumed that I'm on t3 when i have taken the map. One happens before the other, and if it is simultaneous it's hard to imagine not dying before this happens.
Roach/Hydra/Corruptor isn't the best late-game strat around. It's very good in mid-game tho'. You basically have units that are less supply efficient than the Protoss army.
Ultras to kill FF, a buttload of Banelings and something else. He will definitely lose more than 20 supply worth of units.
Getting rid of your mid-game Roach/Hydra/Corruptor to free supply for t3 is another case tho'
These unit compositions sound great, and they probably are. The problem is safely getting to them without pouring too much econ into other units. The other problem is - are we to never pressure protoss until this stage in the game? If this is true (which i dont believe it is), that would suggest the match up has some inherent problems.
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EPT
