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On March 01 2011 00:35 flodeskum wrote:
Thing is, hydras don't just kill gateway units, they shit on the entire protoss arsenal from great height - the collusus and templar excluded of course.
So we basically have the same problem as in tvp, gateway units are too weak and the colossus is way to strong.
... anyway, clearly the best solution would be some sort of bunker build time increase...
I didn't know Blizzard employees posted on TL.
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The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
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On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
The problem is that the Collosi with FF is far to easy to use. Personally i feel any gameplay involving the Collosi and ForceField to be very boring to watch.
PvX- Protoss make Collosi Ball. X makes mass Anti air to kill collosi inorder to Rape Protoss Ball. Protoss makes Stalkers to kill anti air and FF to Trap units. Thats every protoss match-up except for PvP were the counter to collosi is more Collosi.
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On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do.
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hydras are an emergency unit. very short build time on that hydra den and you can attack both air and ground units. the spire takes forever to finish. so if you need to defend vs 3 or less phoenix or 1 or two banshees get hydras and connect your bases. otherwise get em when you can afford to throw away your cash.
funny thing i ve seen today in that ace vs idra replay: how ace got 15phoenix and just lifeted every single hydra that idra built. so dont get more than 3 id say. better 2 at most.
hydralisks might be useful vs heavy marauder hellion builds. but you d have to split them.
has anyone ever tested mass hydra vs mass carrier? i can imagine lots of those interceptors go down in hydra dps.
hm what else.. one possibly valuable position for hydras would be to actually protect brood lords from vikings and the likes in a situation where fungal ccs the terran army, the blords dps and the vikings go down to hydra dmg. that would actually force terran to get bcs. a more appropriate counter to the very long and expensive tech to blords. (i mean how can you counter a unit that expensive with such a crap?) ye but need very very good micro managment to make it happen.
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its not thats hyrdras cant beat colsi its the whole aggro thing if an equal supply of hydras fought and equal colsi the fight is not as one sided as u may think..
for protoss the only way to win against zerg or terran for that matter is to have those higher tech units once we lose the voids of colsi are army is well dead.
i am not saying colsi or high temps arent strong but with out them u will never see a protoss win again our units are far to weak ( by units i mean; Zealot, Stalker, Sentry) the Fact is gateway units dont stand a chance against marine/ marrauder | or roaches | or hydras | or roaches and hydras.
so plz stop whinning about Toss being over powered and start thinking about how to beat or stop our tech cuz with out tech protoss aint winning any games
On February 26 2011 13:10 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, so it pretty much makes sense that they have the same speed, dont you think? also, hydras are faster on creep. Except Colossi are way more powerful. So Hydralisk should be more mobile to compensate. I'm not saying hydra should be fast, just fast er. Don't you think it's a little dull to have in a game "Well derp I made the wrong unit!" There should be some advantage the hydralisk has over colossus. Right now it's just "If they have colossus, don't make hydra."
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Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do.
This is pretty accurate. I think the whole zvp matchup is badly designed. There are several things that are bad about it, some on both sides, but the end result is that the P ball is too strong. Colossi seem intended to be a hard-counter-ish unit, in that they hard counter everything on the ground and are countered by air. But Zerg have pathetic air when it comes to an actual fight (mutas are notable only for their speed and ease of tech-switching) and yet their ground army is hard-countered by colossi the hardest. Terran at least have tanks, thors, and marauders which stand up to colossi better than zerg units, plus they have vikings which can kill the things much better than corruptors.
A corruptor does 10.6 DPS at range 6 to Massive, while a viking does 14 DPS at range 9, costs less gas, gets its bonus damage against VR's also, and can land. The extra durability of the corruptors isn't terribly relevant, both due to the range of the vikings and due to the fact that their goal is to kill the colossi quickly before they wipe out your entire army.
Corruptors are *not* really a hard counter to colossi. They can kill them, sure, but you have to spend at least as much on them as he has spent colossi, and then once you kill the colossi, the corruptors have nothing to do. You could spend 2250/1500 on fifteen corruptors in order to deal with six colossi costing 1800/1200. Of course, after those corruptors kill the colossi, your investment is useless, while he's still killed thousands of resources worth of roach/hydra/ling/whatever with those colossi in the meantime.
There's also the issue that corruptors do not kill VR's effectively, making the VR/Colossus deathball even worse to deal with.
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On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do.
Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more..
Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?".
you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them.
Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!!
sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light
My life for auir
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On March 02 2011 11:21 ZeRoMist wrote:
its not thats hyrdras cant beat colsi its the whole aggro thing if an equal supply of hydras fought and equal colsi the fight is not as one sided as u may think..
for protoss the only way to win against zerg or terran for that matter is to have those higher tech units once we lose the voids of colsi are army is well dead.
i am not saying colsi or high temps arent strong but with out them u will never see a protoss win again our units are far to weak ( by units i mean; Zealot, Stalker, Sentry) the Fact is gateway units dont stand a chance against marine/ marrauder | or roaches | or hydras | or roaches and hydras.
so plz stop whinning about Toss being over powered and start thinking about how to beat or stop our tech cuz with out tech protoss aint winning any games
"Stop them from teching" is not a meaningful contribution to the conversation. Stopping a P player from teching to colossi after a careful sentry expand opening is impossible.
Gateway units are somewhat weaker than roach/hydra, although not *that* much weaker. However, protoss has two great equalizers: warpin and forcefield.
Everyone knows forcefield is good.
Warp-in means that there is less of a defender's advantage when defending against a gateway push. If a Terran player wants to hit you at 10:00 with rax/factory units, he will have about 8:30 worth of money in his army: the stuff that hits you at 10:00 was paid for at 8:30, started walking toward your base at 9:15, and got there at 10:00. (Roughly.)
Meanwhile, the last of the gateway units that are hitting you at 10:00 were paid for at 9:50 -- five seconds to warp in and five seconds to walk from the proxy pylon to the battle. Does this mean that 4-gate pushes are imbalanced? They're certainly strong, but they're beatable; the warpin mechanic is a neat part of the race.
Gateway units aren't that weak. People die to 4-gate and 6-gates all the time, and the very fact that an aggressive zerg is unable to apply enough pressure to slow a protoss' tech indicates that they're good on defense, too. (Forcefields...)
Oh, and if an equal supply of hydras fought an equal supply of colossi (that's 3 hydras per colossus) it'd be an absolute slaughter. I suggest you try it.
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Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army
This is not practical, and your post lost credibility after this. (Not all games hit the 200/200 mark, but most of them get over 140-150, easily high enough for colossi to be relevant.)
for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that
Forcefields.
and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more..
The reason zerg reaches max food faster is because they have, indirectly, a lower army size cap because roaches and lings cost so much food. Attacking sooner just means losing stuff to forcefields; it is very, very difficult to press the attack against a protoss army in a defensible position.
Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?".
You cannot stop protoss from teching to colossi.
you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box.
You sound like Gene Ray, honestly, between the claims of openminded enlightenment and liberally-ladled-out accusations of stupidity toward everyone else. (Gene Ray is the Time Cube guy: see timecube.com.)
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On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do. Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more.. Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?". you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them. Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!! sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light My life for auir
All protoss needs to do is turtle until they have about a max army, any attack zerg can do will do little to no damage. Also early roach rush only kills the greedy protosses or those who don't know what they're doing.
I agree zergs should experiment more but when it takes a drastically better zerg to beat a protoss of the same calibre something is wrong in the concept of the match up.
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I would love to see Hydras bumped down to 1 food. It would make end-game Zerg armies more on-par with the Protoss.
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KevinIX, that would be interesting, but it creates an interesting dichotomy, where roaches are good for their mineral/gas cost but bad for their food cost, and marines are bad for their mineral/gas cost and good for their food cost.
I'm not sure that's a good idea; hydras would become the most expensive and strongest unit in the game for its food cost.
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the one and only thing hydras miss currently is...
speed.
they should be as fast as speedroaches are. give them a bloody upgrade.
also i've stopped making hydras in ZvP, instead making lings, they do just as much damage as the hydras will (unless i magically get a golden attack spot where my hydras doesn't melt instantly) also lings are cheaper on both food and mineral/gas usage which gives me more corruptors
but to be honest, i personally think we need to up the bunker build time...
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On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do. Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more.. Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?". you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them. Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!! sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light My life for auir
And so the only possible way for a Z to beat a P, in your opinion, is to roach rush every game? 7rr or 3r/lings? Sure i can win my way to masters doing that every game but i don't think my gameplay would improve any bit and to be honest, i'd rather a long macro game because it's so much more fun.
I play Z and sure there are many diamonds (i'm not masters) that won't know how to counter early roach aggression. But the point here, is that a Z player of a certain calibre would almost certainly lose to a less adept P player because of how ridiculously strong the late game deathball is. A good P player would have VRs as well as phoenixes (or phoenii, as Artosis calls it) protecting their stalker/colo ball. And corruptors built to counter the colo just wouldn't cut it against their air units and thus the need for hydras in a late game situation. Which in turn, gets slagged by thermal lance and psi storms.
But anyway i don't think that this problem would kill the game. I still feel that this matchup is largely winnable for Z because if the game goes to the stage of 200 supply, Z usually has the advantage simply because its much easier to remax and maintain a large army. But of course, this is assuming that the player expands and continues to macro and maintain an economic lead. Also, I feel that the nydus is being underused. It can be used effectively to harass especially in late game situations when you can flood lings (cheap) into undefended mains to take out production structures the same way T uses medievac drops.
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On February 26 2011 13:05 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:03 dark fury wrote:
Why would you even compare hydras and colossus like that? Both are glass cannon units. Fragile, extreme damage, and slow. When you grab hydras you are sacrificing mobility for power, much like the colossus.
Accept Protoss grab colossi to win, while Zerg grab Hydra to survive. Huge difference. And don't call the Hydra extreme damage when you compare it with the colossi. Hydras are useless off creep, need a range upgrade to even be used. Colossi do massive amounts of splash damage, and with a range upgrade, can't be reached by the Zerg army when force-fields and unit placement is done correctly. Zerg are missing a unit that has any kind of purpose like that. Zerg T3 is a joke compared to the other races. Ultralisks: melee unit and easily sniped by any T1/T2 level army. Broodlords: easily picked off by blink stalkers/stimmed marines. Zerg don't have a viable and useful tech against Colossi that doesn't make it a balancing issue between a ground unit that can only hit ground, or an air unit that can only target air.
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On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
The corrupter really doesn't pwn that colossus. You need a ton of corruptors in order to be able to destroy the colossi before they've already eliminated your ground army. And even if you successfully kill off the colossi with the corruptors, you're left with a unit that can't target the gateway units. And what about the Protoss integrating void rays into his build? Then he has an air unit that not only targets ground and unleashes great dps, but he does bonus damage against the Zergs anti air. Do you not see the issue here?
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On March 02 2011 11:54 entropius wrote:
I'm not sure that's a good idea; hydras would become the most expensive and strongest unit in the game for its food cost.
Not really... Both ghosts and ravens are exactly the same cost for population (150/1pop).
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On February 26 2011 13:10 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, so it pretty much makes sense that they have the same speed, dont you think? also, hydras are faster on creep. Don't you think it's a little dull to have in a game "Well derp I made the wrong unit!" There should be some advantage the hydralisk has over colossus. Right now it's just "If they have colossus, don't make hydra."
Why should you reward a player for only making one type of unit? The whole point of acting and reaction is to constantly have a better mix than the other guy. Spamming one unit is stupid.
Your opponent makes colossi? Great, make things good against them. If you lose because they went colossi and you decided to go hydra because "screw it, I want hydras," then you deserve to lose. Imagine if you went mass hydra and the protoss decided "screw it, I want mass phoenix or VR;" you'd crush it. If the Protoss then came onto the forums and cried that hydras were overpowered because "durp I made the wrong unit" and that pho/VR need buffs to be able to deal with hydras, you'd turn around and tell them its their own fault for not making the right units.
Well, that goes for you, too.
The whole premise of the game is to figure out what the opponent is doing and react appropriately, not just build something because you feel like it.
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On March 02 2011 11:42 ZidaneTribal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:31 ZeRoMist wrote:On March 02 2011 10:55 jyLee wrote:On March 02 2011 10:35 Krede wrote:
The real problem is that the corruptor pwns the colossus. To fix this obvious problem we need to secure some kind of antiair ability for the colossus - or at least ensure that the colossus can outrun the corruptor!
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Seriously, here's my point: You cannot discuss balance around 2 units. You need to take a look at the entire match up. Hydras have a specific roll in the zvp match up, colossus another and the corruptor a third.
Flawed logic. So the zerg is forced to get corruptors JUST to counter a single unit that has absolutely zero use other than to morph into broodlords later on, while the colossus shits on everything zerg can put out there. 200/200 battles in zvp are already heavily in favor of p but now you have a chunk of that food taken up by corruptors that can only shoot at colossus. Now its not just a matter of remacroing up fast enough to pick away at the 200 food toss army when your 200 z army is so far behind. Hydras need to be moved into tier one and corruptors need to be more versatile. Nerfing colossus is probably not the way to go. Idra and Artosis got it right when they said sc2 is balanced around too many hard counters and not enough soft counters so skill doesnt play as much a role as builds do. Heres a cool plan dont let the toss get a 200 200 army for good grief do none of u see how strong early roaches are against toss a roach rush is one of the scarest things for me to see coming not much i can do about that and hey zergs you max out faster then any other race so why not attack more.. Instead of saying GOD this units is so strong its should be nerfed why not say " how do i not let them get the unit or how do i kill him with out have to actually fight him?". you are all thinking about this with a one dimensional mind open up think out side the box. The answer to winning a game should never be how can i cry enough to get blizzard to make this unit weaker its should be how do i change and adpt to the way things are and overcome them. Take real war as an example just cuz the other guys have more money which mean they can have all the better stuff doesnt mean they always win and dont say they do go look back in history viet nam anyone!! sorry mod for the double post i didnt mean to i wrote the last replay before seeing this and my passion for my race made me have to set things in a different light My life for auir All protoss needs to do is turtle until they have about a max army, any attack zerg can do will do little to no damage. Also early roach rush only kills the greedy protosses or those who don't know what they're doing. I agree zergs should experiment more but when it takes a drastically better zerg to beat a protoss of the same calibre something is wrong in the concept of the match up.
Wow only a few months ago Zerg was saying the same for Terran.Especially this line thats bolded.Ironically the only change that happened was an increase in roach range, but that seriously didn;t really change anything in the match up, but zerg stopped complaining as much.
Back on Topic- It seems the problem Zerg is having revolves around Splash. Tanks, Collosi, Storm. Blame Blizzard on their Clumpy game engine.
Zerg=Small units with low HP that Clump.
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