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The hydralisk is perhaps the only unit in the zerg army (With the exception of the infestor), which can be considered a support unit, roach+hydra is the one of the few zerg combos where units actually help each other, instead of getting in the way with a too different movement speed, or range.
Hydralisks by themself are good against voidrays, stalkers, immortals, but they will not live through sentry/zealot, and they are horrible units outside creep, you need roaches to "tank".
Hydralisks do well against pretty much everything, but the problem with high templars and collosi is that they destroy hydras so much, that they become practicaly useless as soon as the tech is up.
Perhaps the right idea is to make hydras less powerful against gateway units, but more resistant against the high tech AOE? To make the game less hardcounter based
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On February 28 2011 17:45 Bagonad wrote:
The hydralisk is perhaps the only unit in the zerg army (With the exception of the infestor), which can be considered a support unit, roach+hydra is the one of the few zerg combos where units actually help each other, instead of getting in the way with a too different movement speed, or range.
Hydralisks by themself are good against voidrays, stalkers, immortals, but they will not live through sentry/zealot, and they are horrible units outside creep, you need roaches to "tank".
Hydralisks do well against pretty much everything, but the problem with high templars and collosi is that they destroy hydras so much, that they become practicaly useless as soon as the tech is up.
Perhaps the right idea is to make hydras less powerful against gateway units, but more resistant against the high tech AOE? To make the game less hardcounter based
That would take off any Zerg timing attacks there are. Hydra drops vs. Forge Fast Expand. Hydra Timing attack vs. a Stargate opening etc.
I'd rather have a scout-and-adapt based decision/micro/macro game than just a micro/macro game with Roach/Hydra based army vs. a Core Protoss army.
I know this happens in the late-game, but I'd rather have a series of timing attacks and defends with different compositions in early/mid-game than games that start building the core army from the 1st second of the game.
Maybe upgrade Hydralisk off-creep movement speed, maybe. They are not supposed to be used against Splash damage units and that's a fact. They are good Timing push units and IMO that is enough.
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i just want hydra to move as fast as roaches, exactly the same speed.
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While the BW hydra did less damage but was faster, the SC2 hydra is stronger but slower. Survivability is similar, but the cost differs a lot (+25/+25/+1). Does this make up for the increased damage?
I'd say there are 4 options that are discussable, 2 regarding cost and 2 regarding survivability:
- Lower mineral cost by 25 minerals (-> 75/50/2). This would free up minerals for zerglings/expos, but a light-based army is very weak against storm/collossi.
- Lower gas cost by 25 gas (-> 100/25/2). Seems quite fair to me. You don't make that many hydras. Zerg needs a lot of gas and this would free up max 250/500 gas for more hydras or better yet, other tech.
- Increase hydra base armor by 1 (0 -> 1). This will be very strong for early hydra tech (I'd love to see that). But is borderline OP (although the marauder is OP in a similar fashion). It wouldn't help much vs collossi/storm.
- Increase hydra hp by 10 (80->90). This would help vs everything and prevents 1-shot storms. It would at least force new strats on the pro level and may not even be OP. Ridiculous that the Infestor has more hp.
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On February 28 2011 23:01 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i just want hydra to move as fast as roaches, exactly the same speed.
Roaches and Hydras have the same speed -.-
Upgrades roaches have a speed of 3 off creep,
meaning they are even faster then stalker, and thus faster than most Protoss units.
(fully upgraded roaches imho are one of the best units in the game)
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On February 26 2011 13:24 Exe_adrian wrote:
A health buff to Hydralisks seems a reasonable idea, but why not just reduce the supply cost to 1?
By doing that you can effectively have a bigger army to deal with that massive 200/200 Protoss Deathball, when going roach, hydra at least. And since Roaches used to have 1 supply cost but were still considered to good, why not just give that to Hydras, I cannot see how this would make them op like the roaches used to be.
actually, roaches at 1 supply aren't op now either.... While the testing I did wasn't done by pros/isn't perfect. Me and another player went into the unit tester and built 130 roaches (and other combos) and they lost horribly to toss death ball, Terran tank/marine/thor/medi/maurader etc. They didn't even beat 110 marines w/ 10 medivacs (in fact they lost pretty bad).
What I'm trying to say is that a lot of people assume and say something when they really don't know what they are talking about; and it hinders the growth of the game and the community.
It will not just help the Speedling+Hydra opening build the OP was talking about, but will also help the zerg in general feel more "swarmish". I'm pretty sure many people have noticed how small the zerg army looks or feels when compared to a Protoss or Terran maxed army.
changing the hydra to 1 food and moving it to tier 1 while making its damage proportionate to it's cost (back to 75/25) and adding a speed upgrade in the hydra den would be a dream come true.
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On February 26 2011 13:28 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:21 Whitewing wrote:
Hydralisks demolish gateway units: protoss HAS to get aoe to deal with them, they're too strong vs. everything else protoss has.
Problem is, once that AoE is out, it's too strong vs. the hydralisks.
Hydras should go back to being a cheaper, tier 1 unit, and be a bit weaker than they are now so that zerg has an early game AA unit (other than the queen), and so they can play a support role throughout the game. Roaches should go up to tier 2, and have their 2 armor back. It's a solid idea... but it'd break ZvZ sooooo badly.
how do you break a mirror >.>
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On February 26 2011 13:38 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:35 justindab0mb wrote:
Ehem... the reason my roaches aren't attacking isn't because of poor micro... it's because of this particular spell which is VERY powerful (hint, it starts with an F)...
Isnt it awesome to have an ability called burrow wich allows you to crawl under the forcefields and get into a superior position while regenerating health at an insane rate, then?
isn't it awesome having a unit that is permanently invisible, flys and detects?
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On February 28 2011 23:54 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:28 Taf the Ghost wrote:On February 26 2011 13:21 Whitewing wrote:
Hydralisks demolish gateway units: protoss HAS to get aoe to deal with them, they're too strong vs. everything else protoss has.
Problem is, once that AoE is out, it's too strong vs. the hydralisks.
Hydras should go back to being a cheaper, tier 1 unit, and be a bit weaker than they are now so that zerg has an early game AA unit (other than the queen), and so they can play a support role throughout the game. Roaches should go up to tier 2, and have their 2 armor back. It's a solid idea... but it'd break ZvZ sooooo badly. how do you break a mirror >.>
I'll tell you how. Tier 1 hydralisks, meet the baneling. It kills you cost effectively every time and you will die to the lings that run rampant after. AKA every ZvZ will turn into a baneling/zergling fest.
Lets say we take that out of the equation, lets say we teched to the lair and we want mutalisks. Welp, no more. Hydra's outrange mutalisks by a lot and even with less damage they would still tear them a new one.
The way ZvZ is now its very dynamic. Neither the roach path or the ling/bling path is unviable. Hydra's are good for support in ZvZ and a bit in ZvP. And I don't mind that as long as there are other units that are more viable.
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On February 26 2011 17:45 Whitewing wrote:
And what the hell is a 'hard' counter anyway? A unit that you get to stomp the everloving shit out of another unit with no difficulty? I wasn't aware such a relationship existed between units.
In BW there really wasn't such a term, and some would have you believe that the term shouldn't be used now but yes Colossi stomp the everloving shit out of hydras with practically no difficulty. hellions w/ blue flame stomp the everloving shit out of lings. high templar stomp the everloving shit out of marines. tanks stomp the everloving shit out of everything (jk, just most things).
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On February 26 2011 19:09 GreenManalishi wrote:
Make hydra worth 1 supply? Revert some of their stats to BW levels and costs as well? I'd pay 75 mineral and 25 gas for 80 hp, 8 damage at .82 speed, and 1 supply.
Actually that sounds super overpowered. Oh well.
drop hp to 65, 7 damage is 8.4 dps and 1 supply for the unit. Makes it barely better dps than the marine (not stimmed) and quite a bit larger. Add in a movement speed upgrade and remove "light" and this unit still wouldn't be op.
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It's actually really simple. Hydras are awesome ZvP, but melt to colossi and/or storm. So you make them when you don't have to fight colossi, or have to stand still in the middle of a storm. It may however be nice to add in some in a roach composition if you feel you can spare the gas.
so...
if you get 4gated, or get stargated or whatever, or if you for some reason don't have to be afraid of meeting storm/colossi, you can add lots of hydras to your roaches assuming you are willing to commit to a timing push before colossi are out. If you are hydra-heavy and attack into gateway/stargate/immortal or whatever, you annihilate everything. And when his colossi later gets out, they are awkward and naked without gateway units, if you don't just win outright. That also gives you map-control, and he can't secure his third = you win. Hydras can be awesome. If you wait for him to get colossuses with lance, or templars, and you have lots of hydras meeting his death-ball, they suck. If you send your super-expensive slow hydras into his +2 meatgrinder colossus death-ball, you can't whine for loosing.
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On February 26 2011 21:34 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:13 Geo.Rion wrote:On February 26 2011 20:16 Belha wrote:
Hydralisk is fine. A unit that rapes non-storm gate units, rapes the roach counter (you MUST focus fire inmortal with your hydras), rapes air, but gets raped by expensive tier 3 protoss units. Is not a stample, as it is the roach. The propblem with the hydra is how useless it is aganist T, and how cheaply terran get a similar unit (stimmed shield-Marine) which is uberly cost-efective. and by rape you mean they come out about even Hydras do extremely well against gateway units. Provided of course they are sitting safely behind a bunch of roaches. Saying that hydras counter gateway units is like saying colossi counter hydras. True, if you match 1 hydra with 1 stalker, the match is pretty even. Just the same as matching 1 colossus with 3 hydras, and again, its pretty even. But have the hydras sitting behind some roaches, or have the colossus sitting behind a deathball, and suddenly, the high dps is way more beneficial, while the low amount of life becomes much less important. How 1 type of unit does against another type of unit isnt really important at all in most situations. Whats important, is what adding that unit does to your army as a whole.
Not only do you have gameplay working against you but you also are neglecting quite a bit, starting with colossi having 9 range targeting priority on hydras...
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On March 01 2011 00:22 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:09 GreenManalishi wrote:
Make hydra worth 1 supply? Revert some of their stats to BW levels and costs as well? I'd pay 75 mineral and 25 gas for 80 hp, 8 damage at .82 speed, and 1 supply.
Actually that sounds super overpowered. Oh well. drop hp to 65, 7 damage is 8.4 dps and 1 supply for the unit. Makes it barely better dps than the marine (not stimmed) and quite a bit larger. Add in a movement speed upgrade and remove "light" and this unit still wouldn't be op.
Lol I'm pretty sure that would break the game.
Zerg has very strong production rates in exchange for inefficient units. Removing absolutely ALL the weaknesses of the Hydralisk ( Speed and Cost) would most definitely break the game.
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Thing is, hydras don't just kill gateway units, they shit on the entire protoss arsenal from great height - the collusus and templar excluded of course.
So we basically have the same problem as in tvp, gateway units are too weak and the colossus is way to strong.
... anyway, clearly the best solution would be some sort of bunker build time increase...
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On March 01 2011 00:29 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:22 ixi.genocide wrote:On February 26 2011 19:09 GreenManalishi wrote:
Make hydra worth 1 supply? Revert some of their stats to BW levels and costs as well? I'd pay 75 mineral and 25 gas for 80 hp, 8 damage at .82 speed, and 1 supply.
Actually that sounds super overpowered. Oh well. drop hp to 65, 7 damage is 8.4 dps and 1 supply for the unit. Makes it barely better dps than the marine (not stimmed) and quite a bit larger. Add in a movement speed upgrade and remove "light" and this unit still wouldn't be op. Lol I'm pretty sure that would break the game. Zerg has very strong production rates in exchange for inefficient units. Removing absolutely ALL the weaknesses of the Hydralisk ( Speed and Cost) would most definitely break the game.
reducing dps to marginally better than the marine (worse than stim) would even out the speed and cost portion. Terran can consistently make more marines than a Z can consistently make roaches and based off of the changes that I would propose the marines would be better than the hydra (like bw) but the hydra wouldn't be completely outclassed.
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On February 28 2011 23:56 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:38 dark fury wrote:On February 26 2011 13:35 justindab0mb wrote:
Ehem... the reason my roaches aren't attacking isn't because of poor micro... it's because of this particular spell which is VERY powerful (hint, it starts with an F)...
Isnt it awesome to have an ability called burrow wich allows you to crawl under the forcefields and get into a superior position while regenerating health at an insane rate, then? isn't it awesome having a unit that is permanently invisible, flys and detects?
observers prevent you from burrowing under forcefeild? now thats new, you should tell the top zerg players to immidietly stop using burrow to counter forcefield!
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I was thinking
T1 Hydra
75/25
10dmg, Same attack speed
80Health, Unit type changed to Normal
Makes him equitable to two marines. Not the same, but close
Roach turned into an anti-armor tankish T2 for 100/50
Maybe with a 15+10 armored or something attack.
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Why are people giving such specific stats when they clearly haven't tested anything?
If Hydras were faster and/or Colossi were slower, I think that would be a significant change enough. That way, the weaker zerg army could still outmaneuver the colossi-based army if they can't face them directly. Hydras would be perfectly solid units if their speed was reasonable.
And don't tell me "oh but the hydra is as fast as-" No. Seriously. We're zerg. We're supposed to be faster than you. Especially with such a fragile unit, zerg needs speed. Hydras are incredibly slow for being zerg and being so fragile.
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Hydras need a nerf =/ Just putting it out there.
Mass roaches will kill a collosus ball used right. That's why if you see the opponent mass roaches, the response is that you *MUST* get immortals and not collosus because immortals are that much more efficient against mass roaches.
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EPT
