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Viperbird
United States118 Posts
Then just for the heck of it put 150 of each against each other, same results, 2 stalkers left over. Stalkers have 2x the total HP and Hydras have 2x the dps. Also hydras dont do bonus damage whereas stalkers do more to armored. Sure stalkers do cost more than hydras, but only 25 minerals more, not a lot. Usually gas is the limiting factor. I think perhaps we are misusing the word "counter" here. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On February 26 2011 18:32 xuanzue wrote: hydras need so many creep. a good buff can be that the hydras can generate creep in a minor radius than a overlord generates. Or just upgrade Hydralisk Off-creep movement speed, that should work too. And it's less gimmicky. Personally I would say that Hydralisks are a "timing push"-oriented unit. They are slow as hell and a bit weak in an army, but they have a great effect for example, against Mass Stalker transition vs. Mutas. I wouldn't use Hydras in my army without thinking about a Timing Attack with them. Like if my opponent goes Forge FE, I 2base Hydra drop his main because he is a bit weak when it arrives. I like to transition from a 2base Fast Spire into 3base Hydralisk because Hydralisks are good against units the Protoss uses to counter Mutas with. I don't know if it's a good timing if he just goes Robo and Colossus, but I certainly believe that I can attack before he has critical Colossus numbers. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 26 2011 18:03 Viperbird wrote: Was bored and did some tests in the unit tester... 20 hydras vs 20 stalkers, they come out dead even, sometimes 1 stalker left, sometimes 1 hydra left. ( 0 updgrades, off creep, hydra range upgrade for even range on both units) Then just for the heck of it put 150 of each against each other, same results, 2 stalkers left over. Stalkers have 2x the total HP and Hydras have 2x the dps. Also hydras dont do bonus damage whereas stalkers do more to armored. Sure stalkers do cost more than hydras, but only 25 minerals more, not a lot. Usually gas is the limiting factor. I think perhaps we are misusing the word "counter" here. Not only are hydras cheaper, but you can mass them more easily and faster than you can mass stalkers. Assuming 1 base toss vs. 2 base zerg, which is typical, you can support 3 gateways worth of stalkers on non-stop production. So.... 3 stalkers per warpgate cooldown, if you dump all your resources into it. Stalkers are expensive. The zerg can easily make way more hydras in the time it takes to get a decent sized stalker ball. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Ever heard of a player called Marineking? Like that of the marine. It has some of the highest DPS stimmed, as well as movementspeed can be healed and dropped, produced with reactored baracks, it has a decent HP/cost compared to some other ranged units. But it costs no gas. OH wait, that's actually not a weakness. Or the stalker, one of the fastest units, can blink which makes them the most mobile ground unit in the game. Its downside could be the cost. | ||
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GreenManalishi
Canada834 Posts
Actually that sounds super overpowered. Oh well. | ||
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Thule
Netherlands5 Posts
But that'd make too much sense, so I don't expect Blizzard to do that. | ||
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Karn3
United Kingdom134 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
They do good against gateway units, great when sitting behind roaches, and rape protoss air. Ever seen a toss open up with a stargate and some gateways? Thats the time to make hydras, and then to counterattack right away. Just a handful of hydras behind a few roaches will do wonders against any stargate opening. Even hydra-ling is pretty decent there. You can also use them against pure gateway openers, and they will do quite well there too. Thats it. They are not a lategame unit. And they are not meant to be used against colossi or templar tech. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On February 26 2011 20:16 Belha wrote: Hydralisk is fine. A unit that rapes non-storm gate units, rapes the roach counter (you MUST focus fire inmortal with your hydras), rapes air, but gets raped by expensive tier 3 protoss units. Is not a stample, as it is the roach. The propblem with the hydra is how useless it is aganist T, and how cheaply terran get a similar unit (stimmed shield-Marine) which is uberly cost-efective. and by rape you mean they come out about even | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On February 26 2011 21:13 Geo.Rion wrote: and by rape you mean they come out about even Hydras do extremely well against gateway units. Provided of course they are sitting safely behind a bunch of roaches. Saying that hydras counter gateway units is like saying colossi counter hydras. True, if you match 1 hydra with 1 stalker, the match is pretty even. Just the same as matching 1 colossus with 3 hydras, and again, its pretty even. But have the hydras sitting behind some roaches, or have the colossus sitting behind a deathball, and suddenly, the high dps is way more beneficial, while the low amount of life becomes much less important. How 1 type of unit does against another type of unit isnt really important at all in most situations. Whats important, is what adding that unit does to your army as a whole. | ||
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B12ad
United States137 Posts
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
Hydras are good against gateway units. They don't 'demolish them'. They trade well with a gateway army, and very well with a roach/hydra mix against a gateway army, assuming you don't engage in a choke and get split by force fields. But demolish? No. Collosi demolish hydras; they literally evaportate into flames within a volley. Gateway amounts don't melt under roach/hydra fire, they trade. It's a world of difference. | ||
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rolfe
United Kingdom1266 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
Good forcefield use will render the lings completely useless and the collossus will melt both easily. The gas you invested into hydralisks will likewise keep your corruptors behind and without roaches the hydras will die too quick. I've seen this many times on ladder and in VODs but it almost never works and only if the protoss hasn't played against it before. to deny scouting observers, sure 2 hydras per base is useful but hydra/ling as an offensive choice is bad. A good or decent P will watch their minimap and stop nydus worms in base as well as kill the overlords. Overlord Hydra drops are the most efficient and likely of the two choices though. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:35 B12ad wrote: Hydralisks are good when you use them in this matchup correctly. You can't be afraid of potential threats, you need to use your lair tech in order to scout their tech route. If they have a Robotics then that's when you have to be careful whether you go hydra, I still think it's a smart idea to go at least like 16 hydras if they get more than 2 immortals, and then go spire for corrupters and completely techswitch if they did. Zerg is better at techswitching so take advantage of it. Corrupters are only good against colossi while hydralisks are good against everything but colossi when there is any roach support. whats the point of being able to techswitch when you have no techs you can switch to?roaches are the backbone of your army but due to low range their damage output is quite low and with forcefields they will die to colossi quick whats the point of a unit that has some resistence when it just cant kill anything but zealots?yes you need hydras because their dps is way higher as well as they have more range and will be able to hit stalkers and immortals so you suggest to get 16 hydras if they got more than 2 immortals - lets say its 4 immortals then its 16 supply compared to 32 covered by hydras; they kill immortals quick but also die extremely fast to colossi the point im referring to is that both races have its counters for x and y but the point is that the protoss has way more effective counters - in damage and even more in supply just imagine that one colossus has the same supply than 3 hydras and costs of 300/200 compared to 300/150 and the colossus will easily win(not even talking about a comparison of costs/effect of both their range upgrades); on the other hand hydras are supposed to counter immortals - will 2 hydras beat one immortal? so what would be a better counter for immortals?zerglings ofc - 8 zergling against one immortal would be quite fine, wouldnt it?it just never happens because of forcefields - the naked truth is that colossi will destroy all zerg ground units besides ultras because their damage output before they die is too low; then you have to bring a useless unit of 2 supply to kill the colossi and then you block a lot of supply and stalkers with ff and guardian shield beat your ground army because its slightly stronger but most of all larger due to the fact that you sit on 20+ useless supply | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
On February 26 2011 20:02 morimacil wrote: They do good against gateway units well, 20 hydras with range upgrade will loss vs 18 chargelots, i don't see the hydras working good against all the gateway units as you're saying. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Most of the time it's best to just avoid hydra's. Pure hydra's aren't that strong, they do worse then pure roach at that point as they are just shitty without a meatshield. Off creep zealots also do fairly well against them. Hydra's can be good when you have a roach meatshield as they provide really good DPS then without dying so much. Still in many situations I actually think infestors are actually a better backup unit as they are even more pop effective then hydra's and do more DPS when used well, especially after 1.3 with current notes. Hydra's are good for 2 things only now, a timing push when the opponent went air a la nestea, completely skipping roaches. This works really well when P tries to go air on small maps (which is just suicide). The other scenario is hydra's when you are respawning with the '300 food' attack. They are quite larvae efficient so they are excellent for the instant respawn after you have killed all colossi. Many pro's just mindlessly mix them in all the time against Zerg now (morrow for example) and always spend early money on the range upgrade. Imo that is just completely wrong and instead focussing on pure roach with spire is much better. Also pure roach is hardly weaker then roach/hydra against immortals. The immortals will still have a good target for their insane damage anyway. They will only die a bit quicker to hydra focus if you do that. Protoss can never go lots of immortals early on anyway because it is too risky against a muta switch and robo's are too expensive. If they go mass immortal you can always switch in hydra's later. TL;DR It's best to skip hydra's early on completely unless you need them for quick AA or you want to do a timing push (usually against stargate opening). Pure roach is just better for everything else, unless there are LOTS of immortals in which case you can just mix in hydra's later. In the PTR roach, infestor, corruptor is even more insane as HT's got nerfed and infestors got a pretty big buff against protoss. | ||
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Airact
Finland366 Posts
On February 27 2011 01:13 Markwerf wrote: TL;DR It's best to skip hydra's early on completely unless you need them for quick AA or you want to do a timing push (usually against stargate opening). Pure roach is just better for everything else, unless there are LOTS of immortals in which case you can just mix in hydra's later. In the PTR roach, infestor, corruptor is even more insane as HT's got nerfed and infestors got a pretty big buff against protoss. How exactly are Roaches better in every thing else than AA and Timing attacks? I find Hydra drop being much better against a Forge Fast Expand than any Roach variation due to Hydras simply sniping stuff faster. Of course this can be counter as a timing attack as well. Hydras are better in timing pushes because of the same thing, and because of their longer range, they can fight better against Forcefields. As for Defence, Hydras behind Spine Crawlers are better than Roaches and Spine crawlers because Hydras can shoot behind the Crawler better than Roaches can. And they have more damage. If I want to be constantly aggressive and go for a Contain, I just go fast units like Mutalisks and Zerglings. Or course Muta/Ling loses against certain composition but what tells you to get more than 6-10 Mutalisks in the first place? Secure a 3rd and transition before he can exploit the fact that your force is weak to certain timing attacks. I personally like to open either Mutas or Hydras in ZvP unless it's a almost Pure-Zealot 4gate where Roaches are needed. I see Roaches needed against a fast 4gate and as Tank units, but never before your 3rd base unless it's the 4gate attack. Zerg is good at transitioning, use it to your advantage instead of thinking about one composition all the time. Not pointing the one I quoted, but overall. | ||
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