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Rushing ghosts isn't the right way to go about it. You are too vulnerable to almost every single standard opener a Terran can throw at you unless you turtle hard.
What I opt for instead when I play Ghost TvT is a 2 Rax Stim expand, which establishes a really strong economy early on and can apply some early pressure. You need to get the extra gas from expansion, that way you can get the Moebius Reactor upgrade and Infantry upgrades. This also let's you seamlessly add on Bio units into your Ghost army and help you deal with tanks. Also, the extra gas will let you tech to Medivacs.
Ghost drops are also really, really strong from what I've found. You can kill workers extremely quickly with snipe, and Ghosts are so durable that they can take a small group of marines head on with the support of your Medivac.
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On February 25 2011 00:46 Kornholi0 wrote:
So you mean like exactly 99% of every Terran opening beats this straight up?
Like even if you masses marines you'd still win, you'd eventually get enough to go mass raven marine..? against the ghosts...?
... Sure it "barely" counters iEchoic's build which isn't even an issue, if you want to beat his build... Don't go marine tank >.>
A) Don't insert random %ages you sound stupid.
B) No, this build does not INSTA LOSE to everything. You make an early push, and are usually able to do some heavy damage. But you scan the ramp before u go up obviously, if they have a good defense you simply pull back and transition out. Ghosts are actually really useful for a long period regardless what build they've gone.
C) One ghosts could EMP ravens (another reason why its not a terrible reason to have a ghost academy up in the first place)
D) This build isn't "MASS GHOSTS ALL GAME LONG"... It's a ghost opening, which you transition out of later game once they either transition out of hellion/banshee or they get a critical mass at which point you're definitely better off with marauder/viking.
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On February 24 2011 07:54 SpunXtain wrote:
If you EMP the orbital command centres they cannot scan your ghosts, and this can be a very good harassment strategy.
Omg, I've never thought about this!! It's so strange that I'd always thought likely targets of EMP are units and maybe protoss buildings to get rid of shields... Never would i have connected that you can EMP the orbital command  thanks
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i Echoic build is for pro people and it is hard to do successfully! I'm platinumT and by far I've killed 2-3platinum T using that build.......I believe this ghost build is too risky!
TanksVikings is so much fun
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SC2 is all about risk and reward.
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Might try this build, it actually does sound viable.
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Whatever you transition into, you should always keep a squad of ghosts and a medivac + nuke on your sideboard. Take a careful drop in the main, emp orbital, launch nuke and snipe the shit out of workers. Plant the nuke between your ghosts and the ramp their army will come back on.
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Tried it once as well, esp. on maps like SoW and other small maps. Followed up with BioTank and 2 GAs with two Nukes. A nuke takes 30 seconds or so to "research", so you can almost constantly cloack Ghosts and nuke the shit out of your opponent.
As said, Banshee, Marinepushes and Hellions loose to it. On the other hand you more or less instant loose if he did set up a Bunker full of marines in time, so you can't get in. He bunkers up until he got like 2-3 Tanks and makes a go - really a weak timing window in the Ghost build, cant really do shit against it, due to too less tanks being ready, no nukes, only Marines... argl.
I'd advice to build GAs hidden at more or less random safe spots on the map, if he realizes Ghosts are comming, it's essentielly lost. Might as well rally Ghosts "hidden" in your base or into bunker, so he cant see when he scans the choke.
gl with it, always lovely to see ghosts out there, although i guess it is not the most effective way of playing, it certainly is a quite funny approach to tvt 
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Hmm, how would nukes with a transition into tanks play against a tanking player? you could theoritically use the ghost for spotting due to cloak, as well as nukes to force the enemy tanks to move away or die, allowing you to gain ground.
I'm not a terran player, so got no idea if/how this transition would work, but may keep you alive against the viking/tank terrans?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 24 2011 09:20 Zarahtra wrote:
Interesting, though it seems a bit boned vs anything else. That is a bit horrible, since at the time you need to commit to the build, you won't have any clear hints that you are facing iEchoic and I'd assume it's basically a BO loss vs mech/1 rax FE with bunkers?
(note: I watched only first replay)I'm also not totally convinced that the ghosts could truly deal with well controlled hellions/banshees for harass. In a straight up fight though, those combos seem pretty damn deadly vs the iEchoic build.
A good ghost opening like the QXC one is actually strong against nearly every terran opener, and does decently against the others. Pretty much the only thing that will straight up beat a ghost opener is a thor rush, and you can still beat it, it's just hard.
Bio rush: you get 20 damage to light with a ghost, and snipe decimates bio balls. A couple ghosts will do massive damage to the ball, way inordinate of their cost. You should have some marines too, so you'll be fine.
Bio/tank push: This one is a little dicey, use the ghosts to take out all the bio support and then clean up the tanks after. It'll take careful micro but it's do-able.
Banshee rush: easiest thing in the world. Push EMP, aim, click, win.
Hellion rush/drop: A couple ghosts demolish this. Move your scvs away carefully and take out the hellions with the ghosts. You do have to spot the hellions BEFORE they are roasting scvs, but that applies to every other build also.
Raven opener: EMP.
Fast Expand: You can nuke! Nuke is very underused and very powerful. You can clear out add-ons and supply depots with them easily, as well as roast workers. Most people don't use Nukes because they don't get ghosts and it's a tech deviation. Since you already have the tech, it's easy to incorporate. You can nuke important buildings and worker lines to punish the terran for not having the units or the proper detection to stop you. Nukes one shot supply depots, tech labs, reactors, bunkers, sensor towers, and missile turrets in the center of the blast, and will often put these buildings in the red even if they're not in the center. Fun fact: You can emp command centers to stop scans. What's really fun, is if you get two ghost academies with 2 nukes, and nuke each base at the same time or double nuke important buildings.
Later on, you can use nukes against tank lines to force them to unsiege and run away. If you do it right, you can stim your marines and cancel the nuke right as they unsiege, run in and clean the tanks out.
You can also snipe worker lines and 3 shot scvs with a ghost.
From a ghost opening, you can use your ghost as your harass unit and take map control. You force your enemy to get missile turrets, save scans, or get ravens to deal with cloaked ghost harass and nukes. You can easily transition from there into any other terran build, and secure an expansion. You don't need to hide your ghost academies, and it's recommended that you don't, since he could take them out with a little luck (and luck based strategies suck >_<). If he bunker rushes you, you could be in trouble if you don't stop the bunker from going down, but you should be making sure that type of nonsense isn't occuring and holding xel-naga watchtowers etc.
Ghost openings in TvT are awesome.
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On February 25 2011 09:28 SpunXtain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 00:46 Kornholi0 wrote:
So you mean like exactly 99% of every Terran opening beats this straight up?
Like even if you masses marines you'd still win, you'd eventually get enough to go mass raven marine..? against the ghosts...?
... Sure it "barely" counters iEchoic's build which isn't even an issue, if you want to beat his build... Don't go marine tank >.> A) Don't insert random %ages you sound stupid. B) No, this build does not INSTA LOSE to everything. You make an early push, and are usually able to do some heavy damage. But you scan the ramp before u go up obviously, if they have a good defense you simply pull back and transition out. Ghosts are actually really useful for a long period regardless what build they've gone. C) One ghosts could EMP ravens (another reason why its not a terrible reason to have a ghost academy up in the first place) D) This build isn't "MASS GHOSTS ALL GAME LONG"... It's a ghost opening, which you transition out of later game once they either transition out of hellion/banshee or they get a critical mass at which point you're definitely better off with marauder/viking.
Literally any opening can beat this =/
Ghosts are defensive spell casting, with offensive calldown (nuke). Which is a very useful thing to have, I'd say that ghosts should be less focused on the build and more of a build that allows ghosts to be used, such as a marauder medivac play would do well etc etc.
But seriously this is good against like 1 rax expanding and the 3 rax stim push (which still doesn't even do that great against it)... Both of which aren't very common among terrans, this is one of those builds I'd practice a few times and keep in my back pocket if I ever got good enough to play against TLO lol.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 05 2011 18:54 Kornholi0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 09:28 SpunXtain wrote:On February 25 2011 00:46 Kornholi0 wrote:
So you mean like exactly 99% of every Terran opening beats this straight up?
Like even if you masses marines you'd still win, you'd eventually get enough to go mass raven marine..? against the ghosts...?
... Sure it "barely" counters iEchoic's build which isn't even an issue, if you want to beat his build... Don't go marine tank >.> A) Don't insert random %ages you sound stupid. B) No, this build does not INSTA LOSE to everything. You make an early push, and are usually able to do some heavy damage. But you scan the ramp before u go up obviously, if they have a good defense you simply pull back and transition out. Ghosts are actually really useful for a long period regardless what build they've gone. C) One ghosts could EMP ravens (another reason why its not a terrible reason to have a ghost academy up in the first place) D) This build isn't "MASS GHOSTS ALL GAME LONG"... It's a ghost opening, which you transition out of later game once they either transition out of hellion/banshee or they get a critical mass at which point you're definitely better off with marauder/viking. Literally any opening can beat this =/ Ghosts are defensive spell casting, with offensive calldown (nuke). Which is a very useful thing to have, I'd say that ghosts should be less focused on the build and more of a build that allows ghosts to be used, such as a marauder medivac play would do well etc etc. But seriously this is good against like 1 rax expanding and the 3 rax stim push (which still doesn't even do that great against it)... Both of which aren't very common among terrans, this is one of those builds I'd practice a few times and keep in my back pocket if I ever got good enough to play against TLO lol.
By the time a 3 rax stim push hits, you'll have several ghosts on the field. Ghosts do exceptionally well against marines, and snipe one shots them if no combat shields, and even if there are shields, it one shots after stim. You'll easily have 8-10 snipes, and ghosts do well against marines with auto-attack. The marauders are a little tougher, but you don't ONLY have ghosts, you have marines too. Ghost harass can be quite powerful too, on par with banshee harass (both units cloak, both do very good damage vs. scv lines, but the ghost is often times a better fighting unit, and EMP is so good. It's also hilarious to EMP command centers and deny scans or mule calldowns, and there's no better way to harass a terran than to nuke his building add-ons.
Ghosts are actually STRONG. 100 hit points, 13.4 dps vs. light units, snipe deals 45 units instantly to biological units from huge range for a measly 25 energy. Ghosts spawn with the ability to one shot 2 marines, 3 with moebius reactor. You're also immediately safe from banshee and hellion openers by opening ghost.
It's a robust, safe, and reasonable opening that many people refuse to do because it's different.
For the record, it's been used in the GSL quite effectively. MVP.Noblesse demolished MakaPrime.WE with a ghost opening build, and MakaPrime.WE is (or was) considered to be an amazingly strong terran player.
EDIT: they're also great to have late game vs. a bio build, as EMP will shut down medivac healing, and nuke makes fighting against mech so much easier, as good nukes will allow you to control positioning (and shut down ravens).
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Glad to see some people agree; ghosts are a very viable unit and people underestimate how useful they are in TvT because they're so used to tank/marine only builds. Truth is there is a lot you can do with ghosts all game long, including nukes, emps, scouting, harassment etc. and opening with them can be pretty safe if you play it well.
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On March 10 2011 07:40 SpunXtain wrote:
Glad to see some people agree; ghosts are a very viable unit and people underestimate how useful they are in TvT because they're so used to tank/marine only builds. Truth is there is a lot you can do with ghosts all game long, including nukes, emps, scouting, harassment etc. and opening with them can be pretty safe if you play it well.
So maybe we can take this discussion not as just a "ghost centric" build, but a viable defensive and offensive option thats often overlooked by terrans in the TvT mu
I like the ghost build, but I find a wall off is almost essential and protecting the mineral line from hellions is difficult to deal with if you have your ghosts "out" at their base. Generally, I lost if it came down to my ghosts in his base and his hellions in mine. It's a nice build to throw out everyone once in a while, and I feel with a lot more practice you could adapt to any situation, but I'm definitely not comfortable enough to make it a standard like cloaked banshee.
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On February 25 2011 12:05 ashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 07:54 SpunXtain wrote:
If you EMP the orbital command centres they cannot scan your ghosts, and this can be a very good harassment strategy.
Omg, I've never thought about this!! It's so strange that I'd always thought likely targets of EMP are units and maybe protoss buildings to get rid of shields... Never would i have connected that you can EMP the orbital command thanks
What you want to do is to emp the orbital and then nuke his depots. Most competent players will move their workers/army away, resulting in little damage, so nuking depots is guaranteed damage that shuts down production for a bit.
Ofc, there are innovative ways to kill nuking ghosts without detection, i.e. using hellion/tank splash on your own units.
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Noblesse vs Maka on Scrap Station was probably the best ghost build I've seen.
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EPT
