The problem is you have no queen, so after the first 3 roaches you're really not producing enough lings. Also, you have no speed. It's better in my opinion to just continue streaming roaches, since it makes better use of the larvae. The 3-roach-into-speedling opening from travis' thread is much more effective if you want to transition from roach into lings.

Absolutely true here - you just can't get enough lings to make them worthwhile, and since punching a hole in the wall (and creating a supply-lock situation) is so critical, roaches are the better way to go. If you really want that extra OOMPH from little weaklings, bring the drones. They pack almost as much punch as lings at this stage in the game and you'll never need to build more than 5 roaches using this build anyway (if he holds off your build and you need more than 5, you're -going- to lose).

As for the 3RR+speedlings - even at it's fastest timings it simply comes too late to win vs good toss opponents even when they are playing relatively standard. The fact is it relies on 3 roaches to punch a hole in a wall, which is tough when we're talking about 5:00 into the game. In fact, if anything, I think the 3RR+speedling build's success is simply showing you games that could have been very very easily won by a fast 3RR. If you can punch a hole that late in the game with 3 roaches, you could have roflstomped him a minute earlier with no trouble whatsoever using nothing but roaches.

These builds rely on their unusual and rare appearance for victory. It's all about enemies assuming they can stop it and still play their standard build. If every toss/terran could recognize it instantly and IMMEDIATELY throw down a forge/cannon or bunker (even at the cost of economy or their burned-in build order they have memorized) than the 3RR in all it's forms would be completely worthless. Thankfully for those of us trying to win more than 50% of our matches, most of our enemies lack this knowledge or flexibility. Will this work at high masters league levels? Probably not. Will it work up into the very high diamonds/low masters at +50% win rate? Yes. To that end, this thread will help not only the average zerg player looking to get a win, but also the TL reader who is playing as T or P so they can recognize the threat this build poses, it's potential best performed timings, and the proper response.

BTW, for anyone that is curious about using a 5RR instead - it's going to be significantly later. A 5RR with a queen is going to get those 5 roaches hatched and running to the enemy base roughly 17-20 seconds later than this 3RR can have the same 5 roaches up and running. In fact, the fastest possible 5 roaches (delaying the 3rd roach by about 5 seconds for faster 5 roaches and NOT building a queen) only saves you a second or two off the 5 roach timings on this 3RR. So, in essence, if you're looking to hit early with 3-5 roaches, this build is where it's at. A super fast 5RR is essentially just as all-in as this 3RR, even if you delay and go the queen route. I'd argue you'll win more games getting there 20 seconds earlier than you would having a potentially better economy.

bech

Denmark162 Posts

February 23 2011 15:03 GMT

#83

Right, I just tested this on a bronze account (im diamond myself). Obviously the bronze leaguers dont know what the hell to do, but as soon as you move up there it starts getting nasty.

I had a terran two-rax me.. he took alot of SCV losses before finally killing me off and then basically sucked so I could take him out by just.. playing normally after that.

A platinum toss scouted my pool just before it finished, assumed 7pool and cannoned the fuck up.. he had cannons before my roaches even reached his ramp - and this is in spite him not going forge first (he did however, go gate then forge when he saw it)..

In conclusion as strong as any other cheese. I think youll even be better off going 7RR.

Fulfillmen

United States12 Posts

February 23 2011 15:10 GMT

#84

The proper response for the toss should have been to drop an immediate forge, not his core. That way he would have had those 2 cannons up and running before you got there. Seems like just another cheese that will be easy to counter once people know to recognize it..

Protonoid

United States23 Posts

February 23 2011 18:38 GMT

#85

I'm in silver, and the 2-3 tosses I've done it against do their standard gate core gate and follow 1-2 zealots with chronoboosted stalkers. By pulling probes to tank for the stalkers, they can possibly stop me from killing them outright.
In this last time I tried it, he had 9 probes vs my 8 drones when my attack ended and I started macro-ing again. He was so scared of another rush he made probes, a forge, and 3 cannons, leaving me ahead while I took my natural.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

February 23 2011 18:44 GMT

#86

On February 24 2011 00:10 Fulfillmen wrote:
The proper response for the toss should have been to drop an immediate forge, not his core. That way he would have had those 2 cannons up and running before you got there. Seems like just another cheese that will be easy to counter once people know to recognize it..

I suspect that skipping the zealot and completing the wall-off with a 2nd gateway for 2 quick stalkers will hold this easily with minimal deviation. Forge+cannons will win too tho. I like to defend with as little deviation as possible, but given how all-in this build is, anything that defends the roaches will win the game.

thebigdonkey

United States354 Posts

February 23 2011 18:51 GMT

#87

On February 24 2011 03:44 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

This rush, if done properly, will hit you before you can possibly get stalkers out. The only response is forge.

Protonoid

United States23 Posts

February 23 2011 19:19 GMT

#88

On February 24 2011 03:51 thebigdonkey wrote:

Show nested quote +

This rush, if done properly, will hit you before you can possibly get stalkers out. The only response is forge.

Yes, it hits before stalkers, but stalkers can get out before I'm done knocking out his 2-3 pylons

Ncinerate

172 Posts

February 23 2011 19:26 GMT

#89

I don't think the "only" response is forge, but I think the -SMART- response is forge.

Even at the expense of economy, an immediate forge+cannon upon scouting this will almost certainly win you the game. Just learn to recognize it based upon the timings I've provided, drop the forge+cannon as soon as you recognize it's coming, and then comfortably build up your normal 4 gate rush + economy to smash the zerg a few moments later.

You can try to get fancy with a stalker etc, but you're playing with fire - it's very possible that the zerg will do critical damage and end up winning the game while you're trying to micro dance the stalker around. Considering the effectiveness of the -proper- response, why bother?

Markstar

Germany10 Posts

June 06 2011 11:25 GMT

#90

Hi,
I have a question about this build:

How do you scout?

I have tried this build and found it to be quite effective on 1v1 maps. In the videos, the player was lucky to find the opponent with the 1st overlord - but what if this doesn't work? There is not much room to allow scouting...

Thanks in advance!

IzieBoy

United States865 Posts

June 06 2011 11:38 GMT

#91

lol you don't...it's primarily a counter build to proxy gateways...
as a build 7RR is probably stronger

Markstar

Germany10 Posts

June 06 2011 12:28 GMT

#92

On June 06 2011 20:38 IzieBoy wrote:
lol you don't...it's primarily a counter build to proxy gateways...
as a build 7RR is probably stronger

Hmm, but that's not how it is used in the first post (is it?)...it's an aggressive all-in that requires you to know where your enemy is (otherwise you loose too much time running around with your roaches).

I adjusted the build slightly to squeeze a pair of lings in. And while the loss is not too great if you delay the extractor and then put 3 drones to it instead of 2, it still is a delay of a few seconds.

Poopfeast

160 Posts

June 06 2011 16:39 GMT

#93

On June 06 2011 20:25 Markstar wrote:
Hi,
I have a question about this build:

How do you scout?

I have tried this build and found it to be quite effective on 1v1 maps. In the videos, the player was lucky to find the opponent with the 1st overlord - but what if this doesn't work? There is not much room to allow scouting...

Thanks in advance!

Ok there's 3 places the opponent can be.
Your OL will scout 1 so only 2 left.
As you you press R to spawn your roaches, you send 1 drone to the other closest base.
You can miss the drone without cutting any roaches and you can just call him back.
If he's not at the dronescouted base he's at the last base obviously