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Preemptive strike here: I know some people dislike cheesy strategies, I recognize this strategy requires little or no skill. I'm trying to share a -very- effective strategy that can steal a win from a vastly better opponent. Take it for what it's worth, use it or don't use it. I think all-in attacks have a place in everyone's back pocket, even if only to understand the timings so you can better recognize and defend against them.
I was fiddling around with the old Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty (LRSM) build a few days ago and realized something. The few games I -was- losing vs T and P seemed to be literally lost by seconds. A cannon came up 5 seconds too soon, a marauder popped a couple seconds seconds too early, a bunker got built just a HAIR too soon. Things only seemed to get worse as I got more fancy, trying to deny scouting and delaying roach warrens until scout workers were dead. I was still winning with remarkable frequency, but the beatings were coming more frequently as I climbed into facing 3000 point diamonds. People were scouting and properly countering despite my attempts to prevent it. I was literally losing games by the skin of my teeth.
I realized, if I really wanted to maximize my ability to win with 3RR cheese, I needed to hit faster.
To that end, a new build order:
Send OL to enemy ramp (keep him off the ramp, but in visual range) 3 drones 9/10 spawning pool 2 drones 10/10 extractor as -soon- as it can be built (at 25 minerals, right after building the 10/10 drone) 9/10 Roach warren as -soon- as possible 2 drones on gas as soon as it pops (yes, only 2) 8/10 Overlord 3 roaches started ASAP
With a proper quick start/drone split, your 3 roaches will be hatched and heading to the enemy base somewhere between 3:30 and 3:35, and that's at least 10 seconds (or more) earlier than my original 3RR. You'll hit earlier and you'll hit HARD, with 5 roaches hatched by somewhere around 4:05, and 3 of them hitting STUPID early. Also, since I haven't actually had to build more than 5 roaches to win with this build, it's possible that you could send all your drones as soon as you start the 5th roach, to assist at the front (the replays below I don't do this, I'll post some updated ones with the drones assisting soon).
Once at the enemy base, focus on getting them supply blocked ASAP - knock down pylons or supply depots. Don't let them surround your roaches with workers (back down the ramp if necessary stutter-stepping). Once they are supply blocked your fourth and fifth roaches will arrive (and perhaps all your drones if you're so inclined) and the game is yours - watch my replays to get a feel for what I prioritize. I haven't lost using this variation vs P and T, perhaps because it's obscure enough that people don't understand the FAST timings and just how much danger they are in.
Here's a few replays:
VS 2931 Diamond Protoss (he tries to get the panic cannons up - oops, roaches are too early!) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142305-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple
VS Diamond Terran (an easy victory) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142124-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
VS 3000 point Diamond Protoss (botched my build, arrived over ten seconds late, still cream him despite his panic cannons) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142138-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Toss's last words? "Those were some early roaches..."
It's balls-out, you're going straight 3RR with no scout denial, no fall-back plan. It works.
Have you tried it? Any thoughts for improvement? I know these strategies tend to generate alot of armchair quarterbacking, but seriously, try this build. Practice it once or twice to get the timing down (roaches need to hatch @ 3:35 or earlier or your timing is off). Try it in a game or two - it'll only take a few minutes because it's such a quick win. I think you'll be surprised.
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This sounds cool but I am still waiting for someone to find Zerg version of 2marauder+1 marine pressure expand build. I hate playing defensive zerg as was given to us in SC2.
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Now I have to learn more proper responses.
Op, anything in mind besides fast cannon?
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On February 22 2011 01:45 iChau wrote:Now I have to learn more proper responses. Op, anything in mind besides fast cannon?
That's literally it. You need a super fast forge and cannon.
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I dunno how it goes for Protoss but any decent T will start massing bunkers when they see such an early pool. You might get lucky once in a while on 4player maps when your base gets scouted last but as you said that strat is designed for inferior players to win sometimes.
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If this strategy is so dependent on timings that are just a few seconds faster, does having a bigger map weaken the strategy?
Im in class so I can't watch your replays, but in Xel Naga, if you your opponent had reacted faster, would he have stopped you? Or is it countered by the fact that the scout is delayed as well?
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I was a tad suspicious that this known strategy was first posted by you on TL. So I did some sleuthing, otherwise known as using the search function: 2 things came up, a 3 roach speedling all-in, and 3 roach rush, and looking over it's OP it is the exact same as yours (in terms of BO and concept). So I suggest taking these replays to that strat thread.
Here's a link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165468
+ Show Spoiler +next time use the search function before you get too eager about creating a thread
edit: wtf you wrote the same thread twice, do you have amnesia?
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If that terran scouted at all, you would have lost.
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On February 22 2011 01:52 elkram wrote:I was a tad suspicious that this known strategy was first posted by you on TL. So I did some sleuthing, otherwise known as using the search function: 2 things came up, a 3 roach speedling all-in, and 3 roach rush, and looking over it's OP it is the exact same as yours (in terms of BO and concept). So I suggest taking these replays to that strat thread. Here's a link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165468+ Show Spoiler +next time use the search function before you get too eager about creating a thread edit: wtf you wrote the same thread twice, do you have amnesia? In the second paragraph he says it's an improved version...
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On February 22 2011 01:52 lyAsakura wrote: If that terran scouted at all, you would have lost.
And if he built a bunker 2 minutes in and pumped out 4marines and put all of his SCV's on auto repair he would have won too. What's your point?
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OUCH. As a Toss this build would make me cry. I just wish for the zerg's sake it wasn't such an all-in. It's basically like a 6 pool, just a bit more durable.
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On February 22 2011 01:48 Mercury- wrote: I dunno how it goes for Protoss but any decent T will start massing bunkers when they see such an early pool. You might get lucky once in a while on 4player maps when your base gets scouted last but as you said that strat is designed for inferior players to win sometimes.
If you watch the replays, the terran tries to get a bunker up but it never completes because the roaches show up so early. The toss's try to drop a forge+cannons but are unable to get them up in time for the same reasons. 3 roaches trash a building cannon pretty damn quick - and the followup 2 roaches (and possibly drones) help finish the enemy off. Getting them into supply block -is- important though, you want to try to cut unit production ASAP.
I believe a toss -could- drop an immediate forge and get cannons up in time if he scouted quickly and IMMEDIATELY realized the trouble he was in. Most players don't realize just how quickly these roaches can arrive though, so they play expecting roaches 20-45 seconds later. As I said in my initial post, I think the success is largely because the timings on this attack are so much faster than anything people are used to seeing from roaches.
As for bigger maps, I don't really think this is a good build for maps like scrap station for obvious reasons. Semi-long rush distances it seems to work fine (the response is delayed due to the scout probe delay), although you might run into the problem my old 3RR was (losing by the skin of your teeth). Bear in mind, my old 3RR was still winning at around 75% efficiency vs P and T in the reasonably high diamonds and it was hitting somewhere between 10-15 seconds later than this (or more). So, it'll still win a lot of games.
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On February 22 2011 01:52 elkram wrote:I was a tad suspicious that this known strategy was first posted by you on TL. So I did some sleuthing, otherwise known as using the search function: 2 things came up, a 3 roach speedling all-in, and 3 roach rush, and looking over it's OP it is the exact same as yours (in terms of BO and concept). So I suggest taking these replays to that strat thread. Here's a link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165468+ Show Spoiler +next time use the search function before you get too eager about creating a thread edit: wtf you wrote the same thread twice, do you have amnesia?
Yeah, that was -my- original thread ;p. The threads look similar because the concept is similar (3 roaches early), but this build is -considerably- faster.
That older post is my fancier 3RR that tried to deny scout and do fake expos etc. This build is hitting 10-20 seconds faster and winning games that I was -losing- with my original 3RR (even at -best- the old build was at least 7+ seconds later). I think it warrants a new thread as it entails completely different timings and is IMHO more effective.
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I think a lot of free wins could be had off this build merely from BO copying players who see a roach warren building and just don't realize how early it is. "Like....ok, 11 pool.....ok, going 1 base roach...guess I need to go robo.....HOLY CRAP THERE'S THREE ROACHES AT MY FRONT DOOR!!!!"
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It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling.
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This looks awesome to try! Def gonna do this once or twice when I offrace
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On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. Except for the fact that if this fails......its an auto-win for P/T. T can marines scv "all-in" as part of normal gameplay and still be completely fine.
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On February 22 2011 02:16 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. Except for the fact that if this fails......its an auto-win for P/T. T can marines scv "all-in" as part of normal gameplay and still be completely fine.
No, you're thinking of 2 Rax aggression.
Marine scv all-in is when you bring ALL YOUR SCVS. If held off, its an autowin for the other player just the same.
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Canada13372 Posts
now theres something else for me to worry about :/ Thanks for a faster Roach Rush build :D lol
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Tried it in a couple customs, its a pretty good all-in, the only problem had was the first game i messed up the build and arrived a little late and ran into stalkers being chronoed out. Basically you do it perfect or you lose :>
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On February 22 2011 02:17 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 02:16 Sm3agol wrote:On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. Except for the fact that if this fails......its an auto-win for P/T. T can marines scv "all-in" as part of normal gameplay and still be completely fine. No, you're thinking of 2 Rax aggression. Marine scv all-in is when you bring ALL YOUR SCVS. If held off, its an autowin for the other player just the same.
not its not lol. its happened like 10 times in gsl, they mule up and then marine scv "all in" again.
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Can you pull out your zealot and build pylon in that place and build 2-3 gateways to block off your ramp until your wp finishes?
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On February 22 2011 02:42 Bowdy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 02:17 ch33psh33p wrote:On February 22 2011 02:16 Sm3agol wrote:On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. Except for the fact that if this fails......its an auto-win for P/T. T can marines scv "all-in" as part of normal gameplay and still be completely fine. No, you're thinking of 2 Rax aggression. Marine scv all-in is when you bring ALL YOUR SCVS. If held off, its an autowin for the other player just the same. not its not lol. its happened like 10 times in gsl, they mule up and then marine scv "all in" again.
So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs?
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On February 22 2011 02:49 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 02:42 Bowdy wrote:On February 22 2011 02:17 ch33psh33p wrote:On February 22 2011 02:16 Sm3agol wrote:On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. Except for the fact that if this fails......its an auto-win for P/T. T can marines scv "all-in" as part of normal gameplay and still be completely fine. No, you're thinking of 2 Rax aggression. Marine scv all-in is when you bring ALL YOUR SCVS. If held off, its an autowin for the other player just the same. not its not lol. its happened like 10 times in gsl, they mule up and then marine scv "all in" again. So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs?
I think you're generalizing a bit. The scv marine all in doesn't have to kill you, it has to do a lot of damage. If he kills a lot of drones and forces a lot of zerglings, he can do it again, but it won't be "weaker with less economy and with less scv's", he waits 5 minutes, gets twice the marines, twice the scv's and does it again. I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but it's happened in GSL alone more times than I can remember, and here's a vod of somebody doing it to idra. Idra holds it but don't act like nobody does it and nobody loses to it. http://www.justin.tv/reason111/b/279573126
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Thanks for the build man, this will cause some hilarious rage in 2v2s.
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I like your build, although doing it this way removes about 2 seconds from the last roach, which could make a difference:
9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor 9 Roach Warren 8 Overlord (This is where it changes, 8 ovie instead of 9 ovie) 8 3 roaches
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Bleh, I used this to get to masters. Now it has more publicity, doubt it's gonna work anymore :|
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On February 22 2011 02:58 Bowdy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 02:49 ch33psh33p wrote:On February 22 2011 02:42 Bowdy wrote:On February 22 2011 02:17 ch33psh33p wrote:On February 22 2011 02:16 Sm3agol wrote:On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. Except for the fact that if this fails......its an auto-win for P/T. T can marines scv "all-in" as part of normal gameplay and still be completely fine. No, you're thinking of 2 Rax aggression. Marine scv all-in is when you bring ALL YOUR SCVS. If held off, its an autowin for the other player just the same. not its not lol. its happened like 10 times in gsl, they mule up and then marine scv "all in" again. So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs? I think you're generalizing a bit. The scv marine all in doesn't have to kill you, it has to do a lot of damage. If he kills a lot of drones and forces a lot of zerglings, he can do it again, but it won't be "weaker with less economy and with less scv's", he waits 5 minutes, gets twice the marines, twice the scv's and does it again. I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but it's happened in GSL alone more times than I can remember, and here's a vod of somebody doing it to idra. Idra holds it but don't act like nobody does it and nobody loses to it. http://www.justin.tv/reason111/b/279573126
I think you misunderstood me. I never said at any point nobody loses to it. Or that nobody does it. Its pretty apparent on that front.
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Great timings. I just tried this build twice on the ladder. The first time I tried I thought the Protoss player was going for proxy gates on close position on Metalopolis. He also scouted me. My overlord just didn't go far enough in his base to see that he Forge FE (3 cannons)... utter failure, but great laughs. My timings were off too and I made one drone too much...
This build totally worked on Xel Nage caverns the second time though against another Protoss player (all in with drones). The timing was late by a couple seconds, but I arrived before any unit could finish, destroying the two pylons. It can be hard to tell if the other player doesn't scout perfectly (this player didn't) ie. fear of morphing zerglings, since it looks like a 8/9 pool, but is much more powerful. He was quite mad, saying "bleh. what a joke".
"Stupid early" is quite accurate to describe this build. A nice trick to have in your arsenal, but indeed entirely "balls-out".
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I think you misunderstood me. I never said at any point nobody loses to it. Or that nobody does it. Its pretty apparent on that front.
How did I misunderstand this:
On February 22 2011 03:06 ch33psh33p wrote: So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs?
That's exactly what you said.
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On February 22 2011 03:02 Shintuku wrote: I like your build, although doing it this way removes about 2 seconds from the last roach, which could make a difference:
9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor 9 Roach Warren 8 Overlord (This is where it changes, 8 ovie instead of 9 ovie) 8 3 roaches
You're actually right - somehow I posted the build order wrong - I don't rebuild a drone to make an ol @ 9 supply.
Not sure how I messed that up writing it down, but there you have it! I'll fix the original post, thanks!
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On February 22 2011 03:09 Bowdy wrote:Show nested quote +I think you misunderstood me. I never said at any point nobody loses to it. Or that nobody does it. Its pretty apparent on that front.
How did I misunderstand this: Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 03:06 ch33psh33p wrote: So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs? That's exactly what you said.
How do you get, nobody does it from that post?
I said it wasn't impossible to hold a second one. Thats all.
Done here.
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Hey Ncinerate, I have a build that gives you 2 more drones before you make roaches but doesn't affect the spawning time of the roaches:
9 Pool 10 Extractor as soon as you have ~70 Minerals 9 Drone 10 Roach Warren --> 2 Drones on gas 9 Drone 10 Overlord --> 3 Roaches
Replay to see hatch time of roaches
PS: As soon as I wrote this, I realized that the two additional drones won't allow you to build a 5th roach because you are capped at 18/18 after the 4th roach! I still post this in case anyone finds it usefull.
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These are always nice tricks to have, but I never like relying on them. They don't really give you much real practice and all these early-game zerg shenanigans rely on the opponent not reacting properly.
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just a post to remember =)
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Can you pull out your zealot and build pylon in that place and build 2-3 gateways to block off your ramp until your wp finishes
Easily. Or you can build a Forge + Cannon in time. And chronoboost a stalker out.
This rush wins you exactly one game against somebody who has never seen it. Unlike Cannon-rushes, Proxy raxes or Marine rushes, Zerg cheese is just garbage as it leaves you with pitiful 8 drones. againt like 20 of the opponent even it deals some damage.
Might win you some games on ladder, but unlike the cheese of other races it's not even close to viable in a tournament setting.
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On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling.
exactly my thoughts. Also, if it becomes prevalent, it will force T/P into more honest play, instead of being able to ignore almost all early Z aggression. This may actually make my thumb up steppes of war...
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On February 22 2011 02:43 CanucksJC wrote: Can you pull out your zealot and build pylon in that place and build 2-3 gateways to block off your ramp until your wp finishes? Warpgates hasn't even started researching when the roaches pop, you are going to have to wait a long time for that.
Probably better to just wall in with another gateway or forge, chrono that stalker and go to town. Even if he kills your gateway you just have to surround the roaches with your probes + Zealot + Stalker and you should win the fight. By the time the rush hits you should be at around 22 probes, so even if you lose some you are pretty far a head, especially if you follow up with a 4WG, he just isn't going to have the eco to stop that
Easily. Or you can build a Forge + Cannon in time. And chronoboost a stalker out.
Maybe from a 9 scout, you probably wont have it out in time from a 13 scout or scouting them last on a 4player map
EDIT:
Watched the replay, that 3k Diamond toss handled it a bit poorly. He built a second extractor instead of building a cannon (delayed it), if he brought all his probes to defend, what would you have done? Your roaches would have taken too much damage to contest any further cannons. Or even worse, what if he sent that Zealot straight to your base whilst he defended with probes while the Cannons were building?
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On February 22 2011 02:49 ch33psh33p wrote: So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs?
This is offtopic but the only way to hold it off is to use (and lose) drones. Because of the MULE Terran is usually ahead in economy after the all-in. The exception to this is if Z makes early banelings and manages not to lose too many drones, or if he has really sick queen/ling/drone micro.
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On February 22 2011 03:50 Suptzs wrote:Hey Ncinerate, I have a build that gives you 2 more drones before you make roaches but doesn't affect the spawning time of the roaches: 9 Pool 10 Extractor as soon as you have ~70 Minerals 9 Drone 10 Roach Warren --> 2 Drones on gas 9 Drone 10 Overlord --> 3 Roaches Replay to see hatch time of roachesPS: As soon as I wrote this, I realized that the two additional drones won't allow you to build a 5th roach because you are capped at 18/18 after the 4th roach!I still post this in case anyone finds it usefull.
Still a pretty cool variation on the build - more economy, faster followup once the OL is up...
Course, the loss of the 5th roach might not make it worth it, in my experience with the build it seems the 5th roach seals the deal. Considering this is a pure all-in, I'm not sure the extra economy (or extra 2 drones on the attack if you bring em) would make up for the loss of an early roach.
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As a protoss player, these new roach all ins are such a pain to deal with. I have yet to find a effective way to deal with it aside from slamming down a forge and a complete wall off.
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Nice, but more importantly, what do you call this all-in build if the previous was Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty? Do you call it the Almighty Omega Swift Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty (AOSLRSM)!?
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On February 22 2011 04:50 Sajuuk7 wrote: Nice, but more importantly, what do you call this all-in build if the previous was Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty? Do you call it the Almighty Omega Swift Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty (AOSLRSM)!?
Rolls right off the tongue.
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BTW, for the record - going for a 6 pool 2RR is fail. Your roaches hit the ground earlier, but the third is far too late and it lacks the punch to knock open a door.
Still testing some other ideas on variations, but it seems pretty polished as-is .
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has anyone run this through evolution chamber to determine if this is the FASTEST possible? I am running right now and will report the results shortly... I don't see myself using this, but it is interesting...
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Incontrol said about a similar build, as toss, the correct response is to forge and cannon asap. Cancelling your core may be necessary as everything becomes secondary to getting your cannon up asap.
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Just did, his build is basically the same, the computer can get them out 7 seconds faster. This is fasssttt
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The guy lost on Lost Temple because instead of throwing down a forge right away which you definitely should upon seeing that many roaches, he reacts with a cyber core. Notice how the cannons was already building when you arrived. Forge just as he scouted + 2 cannons I think would have held it off pretty easily.
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this build is hilarious. but like every other roach rush it loses to anyone who gets a forge when they see the warren, even if that means going gate-forge-core. I want to see if the old method of getting a fast second gate after core will work too.
I still like this cheese, i'm stealing this for customs and smurfing
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On February 22 2011 04:57 ibgeekn4me wrote: has anyone run this through evolution chamber to determine if this is the FASTEST possible? I am running right now and will report the results shortly... I don't see myself using this, but it is interesting...
His build is exactly what evolution chamber comes up with. It's the fastest way to get 3 Roaches bar none.
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On February 22 2011 02:17 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 02:16 Sm3agol wrote:On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments.
It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time.
Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. Except for the fact that if this fails......its an auto-win for P/T. T can marines scv "all-in" as part of normal gameplay and still be completely fine. No, you're thinking of 2 Rax aggression. Marine scv all-in is when you bring ALL YOUR SCVS. If held off, its an autowin for the other player just the same.
Completely disagreed. To hold off 2-rax aggression you 99% of the time need to pull drones, and the only way it's truly "held off" is if you come out with much more drones than they have scv's. If the scv/drone count is even close to similar at the end of the battle, terran calls mules and very quickly overtakes zerg in economy. If terran trades scv's effeciently for drones, it's gg.
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roach all-ins. ugh. i think if the protoss is diligent about scouting they will notice that you have a roach warren going down with no second overlord and no queen and they'll know what's coming. then a good FF or two will allow them to hold. it would still be hard as hell to hold off though. please don't do this to me on ladder.
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Only watched 1 replay so far but the guy had 5 probes queued up at his nex and didn't drop the forge instantly after seeing pool with 9 drones. Lol. Gonna watch the rest now.
Second protoss doesn't pylon scout on a 4 player map, sees roach warren on 15 and drops the forge on 19.
The reactions are so ridiculously bad I'm just gonna assume this doesn't work as of now. :p
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There has never been a 1-base roach build that comes out ahead. AFAIK all good toss scout on 9 against zerg, partly to check for early pool, but also to block a 15 hatch. (This is not needed against T and P.) If you don't make any lings before your roach warren, it will get scouted, which means you auto-lose. If you make lings and chase off the probe before the roach warren, it will come too late, and the toss will have stalkers and sentries out.
There is no timing gap where the toss is vulnerable as long as he is diligent with that probe. 7RR, 5RR, 3R+speedlings, this new 3RR--they are all hard countered by a diligent 9-scout. Period.
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On February 22 2011 06:57 spacenegroes wrote: There has never been a 1-base roach build that comes out ahead. AFAIK all good toss scout on 9 against zerg, partly to check for early pool, but also to block a 15 hatch. (This is not needed against T and P.) If you don't make any lings before your roach warren, it will get scouted, which means you auto-lose. If you make lings and chase off the probe before the roach warren, it will come too late, and the toss will have stalkers and sentries out.
There is no timing gap where the toss is vulnerable as long as he is diligent with that probe. 7RR, 5RR, 3R+speedlings, this new 3RR--they are all hard countered by a diligent 9-scout. Period.
How does the 9 probe go about killing 3roaches + reinforcements :O
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On February 22 2011 07:49 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 06:57 spacenegroes wrote: There has never been a 1-base roach build that comes out ahead. AFAIK all good toss scout on 9 against zerg, partly to check for early pool, but also to block a 15 hatch. (This is not needed against T and P.) If you don't make any lings before your roach warren, it will get scouted, which means you auto-lose. If you make lings and chase off the probe before the roach warren, it will come too late, and the toss will have stalkers and sentries out.
There is no timing gap where the toss is vulnerable as long as he is diligent with that probe. 7RR, 5RR, 3R+speedlings, this new 3RR--they are all hard countered by a diligent 9-scout. Period. How does the 9 probe go about killing 3roaches + reinforcements :O
Are you trolling?
Diligent scouting/micro-ing the probe in their base lets you know exactly what they're doing, especially since they're not building lings to kill off the scout. Once the warren drops, or even before that, you're gonna know something is wrong.
As far as i'm concerned, this is only plausible on a 4 player map with an unlucky scout.
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On February 22 2011 08:03 RoseTempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 07:49 Rotodyne wrote:On February 22 2011 06:57 spacenegroes wrote: There has never been a 1-base roach build that comes out ahead. AFAIK all good toss scout on 9 against zerg, partly to check for early pool, but also to block a 15 hatch. (This is not needed against T and P.) If you don't make any lings before your roach warren, it will get scouted, which means you auto-lose. If you make lings and chase off the probe before the roach warren, it will come too late, and the toss will have stalkers and sentries out.
There is no timing gap where the toss is vulnerable as long as he is diligent with that probe. 7RR, 5RR, 3R+speedlings, this new 3RR--they are all hard countered by a diligent 9-scout. Period. How does the 9 probe go about killing 3roaches + reinforcements :O Are you trolling? Diligent scouting/micro-ing the probe in their base lets you know exactly what they're doing, especially since they're not building lings to kill off the scout. Once the warren drops, or even before that, you're gonna know something is wrong. As far as i'm concerned, this is only plausible on a 4 player map with an unlucky scout.
Yes I was trolling, but I want to know the response to this He left it out. Nvm, i guess its insta cannon.
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On February 22 2011 08:17 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 08:03 RoseTempest wrote:On February 22 2011 07:49 Rotodyne wrote:On February 22 2011 06:57 spacenegroes wrote: There has never been a 1-base roach build that comes out ahead. AFAIK all good toss scout on 9 against zerg, partly to check for early pool, but also to block a 15 hatch. (This is not needed against T and P.) If you don't make any lings before your roach warren, it will get scouted, which means you auto-lose. If you make lings and chase off the probe before the roach warren, it will come too late, and the toss will have stalkers and sentries out.
There is no timing gap where the toss is vulnerable as long as he is diligent with that probe. 7RR, 5RR, 3R+speedlings, this new 3RR--they are all hard countered by a diligent 9-scout. Period. How does the 9 probe go about killing 3roaches + reinforcements :O Are you trolling? Diligent scouting/micro-ing the probe in their base lets you know exactly what they're doing, especially since they're not building lings to kill off the scout. Once the warren drops, or even before that, you're gonna know something is wrong. As far as i'm concerned, this is only plausible on a 4 player map with an unlucky scout. Yes I was trolling, but I want to know the response to this He left it out.
If I run in and see a 9-pool (which basically means halfway-completed pool), i immediately drop a forge at the choke, stop probe production until I can get up a gateway and a cannon, then watch to see what you do with your larvae while resuming probes. If you save them for the pool to pop, I know it's lings, and I complete the wall with a second pylon and let my cannon take care of your lings.
This build, however, builds drones while the pool is going, and also gets a gas. Obvious roach rush is obvious. Then of course a roach warren goes down to give it away, and I'll continue probe production and get a gas into a cycore when I can. I throw down a second cannon when the roach warren pops (so I don't get tricked by a cancel, and since the roach build time + walk time is way more than I need to get a cannon up).
Run the scout probe away, hide it to use for forward pylons/checking on zerg expo timing down the line.
After that I defend against the roaches mostly passively with the cannons, then get up a couple more gateways, macro up. If zerg expanded relatively quickly, I'm ahead, I just need to do a standard 3 gate expo and pressure at the standard timings. If zerg stayed on 1 base, check for ninja expos, get a robo asap to check what he's doing, expand safely and kill.
Again, no 1 base roach push has ever come out ahead if toss pylon scouts.
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My friend and I both started using the build in our ZZ 2s team. It is amazingly fun, I fell in love with the roach all over again. After the rush he starts macro'ing hard into mutas, while I build a queen after the 5th roach and keep going all in.
Most the time we just slapped apart their feeble defenses and completely destroyed one of the opponents economy. He goes into muta harrass mode then I start building my econ and get upgrades.
We ran into trouble against a terran/protoss team on a map that allowed a co-defense where the protoss went blind forge first and the terran went double rax marauder after scouting. A lot of 2v2 maps don't allow for co-defense and blind forge is rare, so I think it's a way strong build for 2s. It's probably our new standard opening from now on as it snatched us sooo many wins tonight.
Thank you so much for the build.
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some1 just did it to me, i easily stopped it. i started with 2 gate cause i thought it would be some lingrush, but saw the gas and teched with 1 gas to stalker while doing 1 cannon. i even did build a stargate and could easily stop it with jsut 2 gates and a cannon...
dno how ppl can even lose to it tbh
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This thread made me 2 lose two ladder games! (3500Master league) I tried vs P and T on Xelnaga. The terran gets the bunker up in time while the protoss makes two gates/forge and chronoboosts 3 zealots + 1 cannon before my roaches get there.
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it was me vs cyclone btw lol^^
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On February 22 2011 23:41 DiaBoLuS wrote: some1 just did it to me, i easily stopped it. i started with 2 gate cause i thought it would be some lingrush, but saw the gas and teched with 1 gas to stalker while doing 1 cannon. i even did build a stargate and could easily stop it with jsut 2 gates and a cannon...
dno how ppl can even lose to it tbh
I stopped a 2rax last time, don't know how people can even lose to 2rax lol
Seriously, if you're actually wondering why people lose, watch his replays (or even try it yourself). I'm not sure what kind of answer you expect to a post like this.
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3 roach rushing was very common a few months back (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165468 is the nearly identical build). Now that it's less popular it has some use as a surprise strategy. I think my total record with the original build is about 4-1 (against toss only). It's useful to know, but it's not a build you can rely on. Basically, you're hoping the protoss will either scout too late, scout the spawning pool but not the roach warren and incorrectly expect speedlings, or just panic (which is not uncommon). The game I lost was due to the probe just hanging around to see what the extractor was for, and then seeing the roach warren go down. It's basically an auto-loss in that case, and 10 seconds is not going to make a difference against any quality player.
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I pretty much always open forge against Zerg so I guess this isn't much of a problem....?
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On February 22 2011 01:37 Ncinerate wrote:Preemptive strike here: I know some people dislike cheesy strategies, I recognize this strategy requires little or no skill. I'm trying to share a -very- effective strategy that can steal a win from a vastly better opponent. Take it for what it's worth, use it or don't use it. I think all-in attacks have a place in everyone's back pocket, even if only to understand the timings so you can better recognize and defend against them.I was fiddling around with the old Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty (LRSM) build a few days ago and realized something. The few games I -was- losing vs T and P seemed to be literally lost by seconds. A cannon came up 5 seconds too soon, a marauder popped a couple seconds seconds too early, a bunker got built just a HAIR too soon. Things only seemed to get worse as I got more fancy, trying to deny scouting and delaying roach warrens until scout workers were dead. I was still winning with remarkable frequency, but the beatings were coming more frequently as I climbed into facing 3000 point diamonds. People were scouting and properly countering despite my attempts to prevent it. I was literally losing games by the skin of my teeth. I realized, if I really wanted to maximize my ability to win with 3RR cheese, I needed to hit faster. To that end, a new build order: Send OL to enemy ramp (keep him off the ramp, but in visual range) 3 drones 9/10 spawning pool 2 drones 10/10 extractor as -soon- as it can be built (at 25 minerals, right after building the 10/10 drone) 9/10 Roach warren as -soon- as possible 2 drones on gas as soon as it pops (yes, only 2) 8/10 Overlord 3 roaches started ASAP With a proper quick start/drone split, your 3 roaches will be hatched and heading to the enemy base somewhere between 3:30 and 3:35, and that's at least 10 seconds (or more) earlier than my original 3RR. You'll hit earlier and you'll hit HARD, with 5 roaches hatched by somewhere around 4:05, and 3 of them hitting STUPID early. Also, since I haven't actually had to build more than 5 roaches to win with this build, it's possible that you could send all your drones as soon as you start the 5th roach, to assist at the front (the replays below I don't do this, I'll post some updated ones with the drones assisting soon). Once at the enemy base, focus on getting them supply blocked ASAP - knock down pylons or supply depots. Don't let them surround your roaches with workers (back down the ramp if necessary stutter-stepping). Once they are supply blocked your fourth and fifth roaches will arrive (and perhaps all your drones if you're so inclined) and the game is yours - watch my replays to get a feel for what I prioritize. I haven't lost using this variation vs P and T, perhaps because it's obscure enough that people don't understand the FAST timings and just how much danger they are in. Here's a few replays: VS 2931 Diamond Protoss (he tries to get the panic cannons up - oops, roaches are too early!) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142305-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-templeVS Diamond Terran (an easy victory) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142124-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-warVS 3000 point Diamond Protoss (botched my build, arrived over ten seconds late, still cream him despite his panic cannons) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142138-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsToss's last words? "Those were some early roaches..." It's balls-out, you're going straight 3RR with no scout denial, no fall-back plan. It works. Have you tried it? Any thoughts for improvement? I know these strategies tend to generate alot of armchair quarterbacking, but seriously, try this build. Practice it once or twice to get the timing down (roaches need to hatch @ 3:35 or earlier or your timing is off). Try it in a game or two - it'll only take a few minutes because it's such a quick win. I think you'll be surprised.
Have you ever thought of pulling drones off gas and then producing lings to follow up behind the roaches instead of an all in with drones? Even thought they do not have the speed bonus I believe it would be a good way to clean up everything if you lose some roaches or something instead of bringing all drones. Also have you considered maybe only bringing half drones, while still producing roaches/lings?
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What are the advantages of this improved build over the preexisting 3 RR? I understand that this improved method is to have the attacking units there faster but isn't it weaker economically than the original 3 RR?
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On February 23 2011 01:38 EvilZergling wrote: What are the advantages of this improved build over the preexisting 3 RR? I understand that this improved method is to have the attacking units there faster but isn't it weaker economically than the original 3 RR?
I don't think econ matters in an all-in cheese build.
Hopefully builds like these will be weakened once we get bigger maps =/....
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Well, you're right, econ is not the point of these type of builds but I've been able to recover from failing on these attacks by still keeping up my econ after it failed. I don't think you are going to be able to come back after a failed attack with this improved build.
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This build followed by mass lings seems like it would be ridiculously effective. All you really need to do is crack the wall, and you've basically won unless he has multiple cannons down.
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Hmmm I tried it out a couple of times with a terran friend on xel naga. After scouting the early warren, he skipped gas and went 2 rax + bunkers for defense. I dont think there was anything I could have done to break him with my 5 roachs...
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On February 22 2011 01:37 Ncinerate wrote:Preemptive strike here: I know some people dislike cheesy strategies, I recognize this strategy requires little or no skill. I'm trying to share a -very- effective strategy that can steal a win from a vastly better opponent. Take it for what it's worth, use it or don't use it. I think all-in attacks have a place in everyone's back pocket, even if only to understand the timings so you can better recognize and defend against them.I was fiddling around with the old Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty (LRSM) build a few days ago and realized something. The few games I -was- losing vs T and P seemed to be literally lost by seconds. A cannon came up 5 seconds too soon, a marauder popped a couple seconds seconds too early, a bunker got built just a HAIR too soon. Things only seemed to get worse as I got more fancy, trying to deny scouting and delaying roach warrens until scout workers were dead. I was still winning with remarkable frequency, but the beatings were coming more frequently as I climbed into facing 3000 point diamonds. People were scouting and properly countering despite my attempts to prevent it. I was literally losing games by the skin of my teeth. I realized, if I really wanted to maximize my ability to win with 3RR cheese, I needed to hit faster. To that end, a new build order: Send OL to enemy ramp (keep him off the ramp, but in visual range) 3 drones 9/10 spawning pool 2 drones 10/10 extractor as -soon- as it can be built (at 25 minerals, right after building the 10/10 drone) 9/10 Roach warren as -soon- as possible 2 drones on gas as soon as it pops (yes, only 2) 8/10 Overlord 3 roaches started ASAP With a proper quick start/drone split, your 3 roaches will be hatched and heading to the enemy base somewhere between 3:30 and 3:35, and that's at least 10 seconds (or more) earlier than my original 3RR. You'll hit earlier and you'll hit HARD, with 5 roaches hatched by somewhere around 4:05, and 3 of them hitting STUPID early. Also, since I haven't actually had to build more than 5 roaches to win with this build, it's possible that you could send all your drones as soon as you start the 5th roach, to assist at the front (the replays below I don't do this, I'll post some updated ones with the drones assisting soon). Once at the enemy base, focus on getting them supply blocked ASAP - knock down pylons or supply depots. Don't let them surround your roaches with workers (back down the ramp if necessary stutter-stepping). Once they are supply blocked your fourth and fifth roaches will arrive (and perhaps all your drones if you're so inclined) and the game is yours - watch my replays to get a feel for what I prioritize. I haven't lost using this variation vs P and T, perhaps because it's obscure enough that people don't understand the FAST timings and just how much danger they are in. Here's a few replays: VS 2931 Diamond Protoss (he tries to get the panic cannons up - oops, roaches are too early!) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142305-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-templeVS Diamond Terran (an easy victory) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142124-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-warVS 3000 point Diamond Protoss (botched my build, arrived over ten seconds late, still cream him despite his panic cannons) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142138-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsToss's last words? "Those were some early roaches..." It's balls-out, you're going straight 3RR with no scout denial, no fall-back plan. It works. Have you tried it? Any thoughts for improvement? I know these strategies tend to generate alot of armchair quarterbacking, but seriously, try this build. Practice it once or twice to get the timing down (roaches need to hatch @ 3:35 or earlier or your timing is off). Try it in a game or two - it'll only take a few minutes because it's such a quick win. I think you'll be surprised.
One thing. As a Terran, if I scout that you've taken gas and pool that early, I will delay my OC for faster bunker. It's not about getting it out as fast as possible so much as getting the biggest change in threat level as fast as possible.
Most people play in "sweeps". This means that they will take a threat assessment when they first check your base. Then they will continually take threat assessments until their scouting peon dies.
Then they will take assessments slightly less often but just as periodically.
If you have a 9pool, most 3k+ masters will immediately reprioritize and bunker up or forge up and wham... those seconds you shaved off your build they shaved off of their build.
Ideally what you want is a spike in threat right after their sweep.
But take it FWIW, I'm terrible
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On February 23 2011 02:47 Sm3agol wrote: This build followed by mass lings seems like it would be ridiculously effective. All you really need to do is crack the wall, and you've basically won unless he has multiple cannons down.
The problem is you have no queen, so after the first 3 roaches you're really not producing enough lings. Also, you have no speed. It's better in my opinion to just continue streaming roaches, since it makes better use of the larvae. The 3-roach-into-speedling opening from travis' thread is much more effective if you want to transition from roach into lings.
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Im not sure that following it up with lings would make a difference really. Following it up with a hatch, or some drones seems like a better idea. Either the toss cuts probe pruduction, pulls guys off gas, and possibly cancels his cybercore to throw down a forge asap, and then 3-4 cannons asap, or he dies. No real point in following up the attack with tons of lings, if you are already in his base with 5 roaches, and supply capped him, is there?
Instead of gearing the follow up for just beating him harder if he is dying, I think itd be better to try and work out something in case he did hold it off. I mean, if he cut probes, delayed his cybercore, and made 4 cannons and a full walloff... Well a bunch of extra lings isnt going to help you out all that much here Id think, but perhaps if you pull all drones off gas right after you have enough for the initial 5, and dont actually suicide those 5 if he has the proper defences... you could get a queen that is fairly fast, and youd have a pretty big window of time to just drone as much as you want/can, you might be able to get an expo and a decent number of drones before the toss can really put any pressure on you.
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Played against this last week - scouted it and thought it was the 5RR. got boned hard, cannon was 15 seconds too late. At least now I have a better idea of the timings of buildings - thanks OP.
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Have only used this twice, both against terran. Once on steppes, the other on blistering. Both of the terrans scouted the roach warren, neither of them put down a bunker. I won both.
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What makes this build all-in to my mind is the lack of Queen. With injects, you can rapidly buff up to a reasonable drone count.
A 9 Pool Queen inject --> roach rush should hit the same fifth-roach timing with more drones and production capacity, at the cost of failing to do whatever damage the first four do by virtue of arriving early. (Although in that scenario, it's possible you could afford early Zerglings do do some harm.)
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Hey, I've got a great idea. let's come up with more all-ins. That's just what this game needs.
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On February 23 2011 03:59 MrPrezbo wrote: Hey, I've got a great idea. let's come up with more all-ins. That's just what this game needs.
What do you think this post accomplished.
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i tried this build and it works pretty well vs protoss (as most early roach builds do)
vs terran i kept losing to scvs repairing the wall. the problem is when they see the early pool they wall off. then when my roaches arrive i have to kill the depot. unfortunately he has rines which have more range so unless he mismicros it's difficult to kill them. meanwhile he's building more and more rines (and occasionally a bunker) while my slow ass reinforcements are coming. then i lose.
usually now what i like to do is if i see he delayed his orbital i make the 3 roaches, kill the scout, and go to his ramp. then i expand. he won't scout the expansion with a worker (unless he's a sneaky bastard) since i'm guarding his ramp and by the time scan is up hopefully i have enough of a headstart. also usually they scan my main to see my drone count. then i get a queen asap and go normally i'll try to find a replay of this because i think it's a great fake build because of lack of scouting on the terrans side (at least for a little). to make it more tricky you could even expand to a different base. the only weakness of this is you have little to no drones so you have to hope you scared him enough so he doesn't tech
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On February 23 2011 03:59 MrPrezbo wrote: Hey, I've got a great idea. let's come up with more all-ins. That's just what this game needs.
Hell yeah brother! Keep coming up with all ins until blizz realizes that the current map pool sucks and makes bigger maps.
: )
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On February 23 2011 03:15 whatthefat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 02:47 Sm3agol wrote: This build followed by mass lings seems like it would be ridiculously effective. All you really need to do is crack the wall, and you've basically won unless he has multiple cannons down. The problem is you have no queen, so after the first 3 roaches you're really not producing enough lings. Also, you have no speed. It's better in my opinion to just continue streaming roaches, since it makes better use of the larvae. The 3-roach-into-speedling opening from travis' thread is much more effective if you want to transition from roach into lings.
Absolutely true here - you just can't get enough lings to make them worthwhile, and since punching a hole in the wall (and creating a supply-lock situation) is so critical, roaches are the better way to go. If you really want that extra OOMPH from little weaklings, bring the drones. They pack almost as much punch as lings at this stage in the game and you'll never need to build more than 5 roaches using this build anyway (if he holds off your build and you need more than 5, you're -going- to lose).
As for the 3RR+speedlings - even at it's fastest timings it simply comes too late to win vs good toss opponents even when they are playing relatively standard. The fact is it relies on 3 roaches to punch a hole in a wall, which is tough when we're talking about 5:00 into the game. In fact, if anything, I think the 3RR+speedling build's success is simply showing you games that could have been very very easily won by a fast 3RR. If you can punch a hole that late in the game with 3 roaches, you could have roflstomped him a minute earlier with no trouble whatsoever using nothing but roaches.
These builds rely on their unusual and rare appearance for victory. It's all about enemies assuming they can stop it and still play their standard build. If every toss/terran could recognize it instantly and IMMEDIATELY throw down a forge/cannon or bunker (even at the cost of economy or their burned-in build order they have memorized) than the 3RR in all it's forms would be completely worthless. Thankfully for those of us trying to win more than 50% of our matches, most of our enemies lack this knowledge or flexibility. Will this work at high masters league levels? Probably not. Will it work up into the very high diamonds/low masters at +50% win rate? Yes. To that end, this thread will help not only the average zerg player looking to get a win, but also the TL reader who is playing as T or P so they can recognize the threat this build poses, it's potential best performed timings, and the proper response.
BTW, for anyone that is curious about using a 5RR instead - it's going to be significantly later. A 5RR with a queen is going to get those 5 roaches hatched and running to the enemy base roughly 17-20 seconds later than this 3RR can have the same 5 roaches up and running. In fact, the fastest possible 5 roaches (delaying the 3rd roach by about 5 seconds for faster 5 roaches and NOT building a queen) only saves you a second or two off the 5 roach timings on this 3RR. So, in essence, if you're looking to hit early with 3-5 roaches, this build is where it's at. A super fast 5RR is essentially just as all-in as this 3RR, even if you delay and go the queen route. I'd argue you'll win more games getting there 20 seconds earlier than you would having a potentially better economy.
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Right, I just tested this on a bronze account (im diamond myself). Obviously the bronze leaguers dont know what the hell to do, but as soon as you move up there it starts getting nasty.
I had a terran two-rax me.. he took alot of SCV losses before finally killing me off and then basically sucked so I could take him out by just.. playing normally after that.
A platinum toss scouted my pool just before it finished, assumed 7pool and cannoned the fuck up.. he had cannons before my roaches even reached his ramp - and this is in spite him not going forge first (he did however, go gate then forge when he saw it)..
In conclusion as strong as any other cheese. I think youll even be better off going 7RR.
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The proper response for the toss should have been to drop an immediate forge, not his core. That way he would have had those 2 cannons up and running before you got there. Seems like just another cheese that will be easy to counter once people know to recognize it..
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I'm in silver, and the 2-3 tosses I've done it against do their standard gate core gate and follow 1-2 zealots with chronoboosted stalkers. By pulling probes to tank for the stalkers, they can possibly stop me from killing them outright. In this last time I tried it, he had 9 probes vs my 8 drones when my attack ended and I started macro-ing again. He was so scared of another rush he made probes, a forge, and 3 cannons, leaving me ahead while I took my natural.
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On February 24 2011 00:10 Fulfillmen wrote: The proper response for the toss should have been to drop an immediate forge, not his core. That way he would have had those 2 cannons up and running before you got there. Seems like just another cheese that will be easy to counter once people know to recognize it..
I suspect that skipping the zealot and completing the wall-off with a 2nd gateway for 2 quick stalkers will hold this easily with minimal deviation. Forge+cannons will win too tho. I like to defend with as little deviation as possible, but given how all-in this build is, anything that defends the roaches will win the game.
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On February 24 2011 03:44 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 00:10 Fulfillmen wrote: The proper response for the toss should have been to drop an immediate forge, not his core. That way he would have had those 2 cannons up and running before you got there. Seems like just another cheese that will be easy to counter once people know to recognize it.. I suspect that skipping the zealot and completing the wall-off with a 2nd gateway for 2 quick stalkers will hold this easily with minimal deviation. Forge+cannons will win too tho. I like to defend with as little deviation as possible, but given how all-in this build is, anything that defends the roaches will win the game.
This rush, if done properly, will hit you before you can possibly get stalkers out. The only response is forge.
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On February 24 2011 03:51 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 03:44 kcdc wrote:On February 24 2011 00:10 Fulfillmen wrote: The proper response for the toss should have been to drop an immediate forge, not his core. That way he would have had those 2 cannons up and running before you got there. Seems like just another cheese that will be easy to counter once people know to recognize it.. I suspect that skipping the zealot and completing the wall-off with a 2nd gateway for 2 quick stalkers will hold this easily with minimal deviation. Forge+cannons will win too tho. I like to defend with as little deviation as possible, but given how all-in this build is, anything that defends the roaches will win the game. This rush, if done properly, will hit you before you can possibly get stalkers out. The only response is forge.
Yes, it hits before stalkers, but stalkers can get out before I'm done knocking out his 2-3 pylons
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I don't think the "only" response is forge, but I think the -SMART- response is forge.
Even at the expense of economy, an immediate forge+cannon upon scouting this will almost certainly win you the game. Just learn to recognize it based upon the timings I've provided, drop the forge+cannon as soon as you recognize it's coming, and then comfortably build up your normal 4 gate rush + economy to smash the zerg a few moments later.
You can try to get fancy with a stalker etc, but you're playing with fire - it's very possible that the zerg will do critical damage and end up winning the game while you're trying to micro dance the stalker around. Considering the effectiveness of the -proper- response, why bother?
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Hi, I have a question about this build:
How do you scout?
I have tried this build and found it to be quite effective on 1v1 maps. In the videos, the player was lucky to find the opponent with the 1st overlord - but what if this doesn't work? There is not much room to allow scouting...
Thanks in advance!
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lol you don't...it's primarily a counter build to proxy gateways... as a build 7RR is probably stronger
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On June 06 2011 20:38 IzieBoy wrote: lol you don't...it's primarily a counter build to proxy gateways... as a build 7RR is probably stronger Hmm, but that's not how it is used in the first post (is it?)...it's an aggressive all-in that requires you to know where your enemy is (otherwise you loose too much time running around with your roaches).
I adjusted the build slightly to squeeze a pair of lings in. And while the loss is not too great if you delay the extractor and then put 3 drones to it instead of 2, it still is a delay of a few seconds.
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On June 06 2011 20:25 Markstar wrote: Hi, I have a question about this build:
How do you scout?
I have tried this build and found it to be quite effective on 1v1 maps. In the videos, the player was lucky to find the opponent with the 1st overlord - but what if this doesn't work? There is not much room to allow scouting...
Thanks in advance!
Ok there's 3 places the opponent can be. Your OL will scout 1 so only 2 left. As you you press R to spawn your roaches, you send 1 drone to the other closest base. You can miss the drone without cutting any roaches and you can just call him back. If he's not at the dronescouted base he's at the last base obviously
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