EPTI tried vs P and T on Xelnaga. The terran gets the bunker up in time while the protoss makes two gates/forge and chronoboosts 3 zealots + 1 cannon before my roaches get there.
[D] ZvP/T 3RR at it's absolute fastest - 3:33 FTW! - Page 4
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cyclone25
Romania3344 Posts
I tried vs P and T on Xelnaga. The terran gets the bunker up in time while the protoss makes two gates/forge and chronoboosts 3 zealots + 1 cannon before my roaches get there. | ||
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
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bmn
886 Posts
On February 22 2011 23:41 DiaBoLuS wrote: some1 just did it to me, i easily stopped it. i started with 2 gate cause i thought it would be some lingrush, but saw the gas and teched with 1 gas to stalker while doing 1 cannon. i even did build a stargate and could easily stop it with jsut 2 gates and a cannon... dno how ppl can even lose to it tbh I stopped a 2rax last time, don't know how people can even lose to 2rax lol Seriously, if you're actually wondering why people lose, watch his replays (or even try it yourself). I'm not sure what kind of answer you expect to a post like this. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
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Poocs
94 Posts
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
On February 22 2011 01:37 Ncinerate wrote: Preemptive strike here: I know some people dislike cheesy strategies, I recognize this strategy requires little or no skill. I'm trying to share a -very- effective strategy that can steal a win from a vastly better opponent. Take it for what it's worth, use it or don't use it. I think all-in attacks have a place in everyone's back pocket, even if only to understand the timings so you can better recognize and defend against them. I was fiddling around with the old Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty (LRSM) build a few days ago and realized something. The few games I -was- losing vs T and P seemed to be literally lost by seconds. A cannon came up 5 seconds too soon, a marauder popped a couple seconds seconds too early, a bunker got built just a HAIR too soon. Things only seemed to get worse as I got more fancy, trying to deny scouting and delaying roach warrens until scout workers were dead. I was still winning with remarkable frequency, but the beatings were coming more frequently as I climbed into facing 3000 point diamonds. People were scouting and properly countering despite my attempts to prevent it. I was literally losing games by the skin of my teeth. I realized, if I really wanted to maximize my ability to win with 3RR cheese, I needed to hit faster. To that end, a new build order: Send OL to enemy ramp (keep him off the ramp, but in visual range) 3 drones 9/10 spawning pool 2 drones 10/10 extractor as -soon- as it can be built (at 25 minerals, right after building the 10/10 drone) 9/10 Roach warren as -soon- as possible 2 drones on gas as soon as it pops (yes, only 2) 8/10 Overlord 3 roaches started ASAP With a proper quick start/drone split, your 3 roaches will be hatched and heading to the enemy base somewhere between 3:30 and 3:35, and that's at least 10 seconds (or more) earlier than my original 3RR. You'll hit earlier and you'll hit HARD, with 5 roaches hatched by somewhere around 4:05, and 3 of them hitting STUPID early. Also, since I haven't actually had to build more than 5 roaches to win with this build, it's possible that you could send all your drones as soon as you start the 5th roach, to assist at the front (the replays below I don't do this, I'll post some updated ones with the drones assisting soon). Once at the enemy base, focus on getting them supply blocked ASAP - knock down pylons or supply depots. Don't let them surround your roaches with workers (back down the ramp if necessary stutter-stepping). Once they are supply blocked your fourth and fifth roaches will arrive (and perhaps all your drones if you're so inclined) and the game is yours - watch my replays to get a feel for what I prioritize. I haven't lost using this variation vs P and T, perhaps because it's obscure enough that people don't understand the FAST timings and just how much danger they are in. Here's a few replays: VS 2931 Diamond Protoss (he tries to get the panic cannons up - oops, roaches are too early!) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142305-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple VS Diamond Terran (an easy victory) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142124-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war VS 3000 point Diamond Protoss (botched my build, arrived over ten seconds late, still cream him despite his panic cannons) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142138-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns Toss's last words? "Those were some early roaches..." It's balls-out, you're going straight 3RR with no scout denial, no fall-back plan. It works. Have you tried it? Any thoughts for improvement? I know these strategies tend to generate alot of armchair quarterbacking, but seriously, try this build. Practice it once or twice to get the timing down (roaches need to hatch @ 3:35 or earlier or your timing is off). Try it in a game or two - it'll only take a few minutes because it's such a quick win. I think you'll be surprised. Have you ever thought of pulling drones off gas and then producing lings to follow up behind the roaches instead of an all in with drones? Even thought they do not have the speed bonus I believe it would be a good way to clean up everything if you lose some roaches or something instead of bringing all drones. Also have you considered maybe only bringing half drones, while still producing roaches/lings? | ||
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
I understand that this improved method is to have the attacking units there faster but isn't it weaker economically than the original 3 RR? | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
On February 23 2011 01:38 EvilZergling wrote: What are the advantages of this improved build over the preexisting 3 RR? I understand that this improved method is to have the attacking units there faster but isn't it weaker economically than the original 3 RR? I don't think econ matters in an all-in cheese build. Hopefully builds like these will be weakened once we get bigger maps =/.... | ||
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
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Protonoid
United States23 Posts
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
On February 22 2011 01:37 Ncinerate wrote: Preemptive strike here: I know some people dislike cheesy strategies, I recognize this strategy requires little or no skill. I'm trying to share a -very- effective strategy that can steal a win from a vastly better opponent. Take it for what it's worth, use it or don't use it. I think all-in attacks have a place in everyone's back pocket, even if only to understand the timings so you can better recognize and defend against them. I was fiddling around with the old Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty (LRSM) build a few days ago and realized something. The few games I -was- losing vs T and P seemed to be literally lost by seconds. A cannon came up 5 seconds too soon, a marauder popped a couple seconds seconds too early, a bunker got built just a HAIR too soon. Things only seemed to get worse as I got more fancy, trying to deny scouting and delaying roach warrens until scout workers were dead. I was still winning with remarkable frequency, but the beatings were coming more frequently as I climbed into facing 3000 point diamonds. People were scouting and properly countering despite my attempts to prevent it. I was literally losing games by the skin of my teeth. I realized, if I really wanted to maximize my ability to win with 3RR cheese, I needed to hit faster. To that end, a new build order: Send OL to enemy ramp (keep him off the ramp, but in visual range) 3 drones 9/10 spawning pool 2 drones 10/10 extractor as -soon- as it can be built (at 25 minerals, right after building the 10/10 drone) 9/10 Roach warren as -soon- as possible 2 drones on gas as soon as it pops (yes, only 2) 8/10 Overlord 3 roaches started ASAP With a proper quick start/drone split, your 3 roaches will be hatched and heading to the enemy base somewhere between 3:30 and 3:35, and that's at least 10 seconds (or more) earlier than my original 3RR. You'll hit earlier and you'll hit HARD, with 5 roaches hatched by somewhere around 4:05, and 3 of them hitting STUPID early. Also, since I haven't actually had to build more than 5 roaches to win with this build, it's possible that you could send all your drones as soon as you start the 5th roach, to assist at the front (the replays below I don't do this, I'll post some updated ones with the drones assisting soon). Once at the enemy base, focus on getting them supply blocked ASAP - knock down pylons or supply depots. Don't let them surround your roaches with workers (back down the ramp if necessary stutter-stepping). Once they are supply blocked your fourth and fifth roaches will arrive (and perhaps all your drones if you're so inclined) and the game is yours - watch my replays to get a feel for what I prioritize. I haven't lost using this variation vs P and T, perhaps because it's obscure enough that people don't understand the FAST timings and just how much danger they are in. Here's a few replays: VS 2931 Diamond Protoss (he tries to get the panic cannons up - oops, roaches are too early!) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142305-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple VS Diamond Terran (an easy victory) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142124-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war VS 3000 point Diamond Protoss (botched my build, arrived over ten seconds late, still cream him despite his panic cannons) http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142138-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns Toss's last words? "Those were some early roaches..." It's balls-out, you're going straight 3RR with no scout denial, no fall-back plan. It works. Have you tried it? Any thoughts for improvement? I know these strategies tend to generate alot of armchair quarterbacking, but seriously, try this build. Practice it once or twice to get the timing down (roaches need to hatch @ 3:35 or earlier or your timing is off). Try it in a game or two - it'll only take a few minutes because it's such a quick win. I think you'll be surprised. One thing. As a Terran, if I scout that you've taken gas and pool that early, I will delay my OC for faster bunker. It's not about getting it out as fast as possible so much as getting the biggest change in threat level as fast as possible. Most people play in "sweeps". This means that they will take a threat assessment when they first check your base. Then they will continually take threat assessments until their scouting peon dies. Then they will take assessments slightly less often but just as periodically. If you have a 9pool, most 3k+ masters will immediately reprioritize and bunker up or forge up and wham... those seconds you shaved off your build they shaved off of their build. Ideally what you want is a spike in threat right after their sweep. But take it FWIW, I'm terrible  | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On February 23 2011 02:47 Sm3agol wrote: This build followed by mass lings seems like it would be ridiculously effective. All you really need to do is crack the wall, and you've basically won unless he has multiple cannons down. The problem is you have no queen, so after the first 3 roaches you're really not producing enough lings. Also, you have no speed. It's better in my opinion to just continue streaming roaches, since it makes better use of the larvae. The 3-roach-into-speedling opening from travis' thread is much more effective if you want to transition from roach into lings. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Following it up with a hatch, or some drones seems like a better idea. Either the toss cuts probe pruduction, pulls guys off gas, and possibly cancels his cybercore to throw down a forge asap, and then 3-4 cannons asap, or he dies. No real point in following up the attack with tons of lings, if you are already in his base with 5 roaches, and supply capped him, is there? Instead of gearing the follow up for just beating him harder if he is dying, I think itd be better to try and work out something in case he did hold it off. I mean, if he cut probes, delayed his cybercore, and made 4 cannons and a full walloff... Well a bunch of extra lings isnt going to help you out all that much here Id think, but perhaps if you pull all drones off gas right after you have enough for the initial 5, and dont actually suicide those 5 if he has the proper defences... you could get a queen that is fairly fast, and youd have a pretty big window of time to just drone as much as you want/can, you might be able to get an expo and a decent number of drones before the toss can really put any pressure on you. | ||
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Robellicose
England245 Posts
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
A 9 Pool Queen inject --> roach rush should hit the same fifth-roach timing with more drones and production capacity, at the cost of failing to do whatever damage the first four do by virtue of arriving early. (Although in that scenario, it's possible you could afford early Zerglings do do some harm.) | ||
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MrPrezbo
92 Posts
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Turo
Canada333 Posts
On February 23 2011 03:59 MrPrezbo wrote: Hey, I've got a great idea. let's come up with more all-ins. That's just what this game needs. What do you think this post accomplished. | ||
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aeoliant
Canada361 Posts
vs terran i kept losing to scvs repairing the wall. the problem is when they see the early pool they wall off. then when my roaches arrive i have to kill the depot. unfortunately he has rines which have more range so unless he mismicros it's difficult to kill them. meanwhile he's building more and more rines (and occasionally a bunker) while my slow ass reinforcements are coming. then i lose. usually now what i like to do is if i see he delayed his orbital i make the 3 roaches, kill the scout, and go to his ramp. then i expand. he won't scout the expansion with a worker (unless he's a sneaky bastard) since i'm guarding his ramp and by the time scan is up hopefully i have enough of a headstart. also usually they scan my main to see my drone count. then i get a queen asap and go normally i'll try to find a replay of this because i think it's a great fake build because of lack of scouting on the terrans side (at least for a little). to make it more tricky you could even expand to a different base. the only weakness of this is you have little to no drones so you have to hope you scared him enough so he doesn't tech | ||
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