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Bowdy
United States232 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:17 ch33psh33p wrote: No, you're thinking of 2 Rax aggression. Marine scv all-in is when you bring ALL YOUR SCVS. If held off, its an autowin for the other player just the same. not its not lol. its happened like 10 times in gsl, they mule up and then marine scv "all in" again. | ||
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CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:42 Bowdy wrote: not its not lol. its happened like 10 times in gsl, they mule up and then marine scv "all in" again. So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs? | ||
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Bowdy
United States232 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:49 ch33psh33p wrote: So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs? I think you're generalizing a bit. The scv marine all in doesn't have to kill you, it has to do a lot of damage. If he kills a lot of drones and forces a lot of zerglings, he can do it again, but it won't be "weaker with less economy and with less scv's", he waits 5 minutes, gets twice the marines, twice the scv's and does it again. I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but it's happened in GSL alone more times than I can remember, and here's a vod of somebody doing it to idra. Idra holds it but don't act like nobody does it and nobody loses to it. http://www.justin.tv/reason111/b/279573126 | ||
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
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Shintuku
Canada76 Posts
9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor 9 Roach Warren 8 Overlord (This is where it changes, 8 ovie instead of 9 ovie) 8 3 roaches | ||
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Hummingb1rd
United States97 Posts
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:58 Bowdy wrote: I think you're generalizing a bit. The scv marine all in doesn't have to kill you, it has to do a lot of damage. If he kills a lot of drones and forces a lot of zerglings, he can do it again, but it won't be "weaker with less economy and with less scv's", he waits 5 minutes, gets twice the marines, twice the scv's and does it again. I'm not saying it isn't stupid, but it's happened in GSL alone more times than I can remember, and here's a vod of somebody doing it to idra. Idra holds it but don't act like nobody does it and nobody loses to it. http://www.justin.tv/reason111/b/279573126 I think you misunderstood me. I never said at any point nobody loses to it. Or that nobody does it. Its pretty apparent on that front. | ||
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Stoneskin
Canada1 Post
This build totally worked on Xel Nage caverns the second time though against another Protoss player (all in with drones). The timing was late by a couple seconds, but I arrived before any unit could finish, destroying the two pylons. It can be hard to tell if the other player doesn't scout perfectly (this player didn't) ie. fear of morphing zerglings, since it looks like a 8/9 pool, but is much more powerful. He was quite mad, saying "bleh. what a joke". "Stupid early" is quite accurate to describe this build. A nice trick to have in your arsenal, but indeed entirely "balls-out". | ||
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Bowdy
United States232 Posts
I think you misunderstood me. I never said at any point nobody loses to it. Or that nobody does it. Its pretty apparent on that front. How did I misunderstand this: On February 22 2011 03:06 ch33psh33p wrote: So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs? That's exactly what you said. | ||
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Ncinerate
172 Posts
On February 22 2011 03:02 Shintuku wrote: I like your build, although doing it this way removes about 2 seconds from the last roach, which could make a difference: 9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor 9 Roach Warren 8 Overlord (This is where it changes, 8 ovie instead of 9 ovie) 8 3 roaches You're actually right - somehow I posted the build order wrong - I don't rebuild a drone to make an ol @ 9 supply. Not sure how I messed that up writing it down, but there you have it! I'll fix the original post, thanks! | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On February 22 2011 03:09 Bowdy wrote: How did I misunderstand this: That's exactly what you said. How do you get, nobody does it from that post? I said it wasn't impossible to hold a second one. Thats all. Done here. | ||
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Suptzs
Switzerland48 Posts
9 Pool 10 Extractor as soon as you have ~70 Minerals 9 Drone 10 Roach Warren --> 2 Drones on gas 9 Drone 10 Overlord --> 3 Roaches Replay to see hatch time of roaches PS: As soon as I wrote this, I realized that the two additional drones won't allow you to build a 5th roach because you are capped at 18/18 after the 4th roach! I still post this in case anyone finds it usefull. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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pilsken
Germany441 Posts
Can you pull out your zealot and build pylon in that place and build 2-3 gateways to block off your ramp until your wp finishes Easily. Or you can build a Forge + Cannon in time. And chronoboost a stalker out. This rush wins you exactly one game against somebody who has never seen it. Unlike Cannon-rushes, Proxy raxes or Marine rushes, Zerg cheese is just garbage as it leaves you with pitiful 8 drones. againt like 20 of the opponent even it deals some damage. Might win you some games on ladder, but unlike the cheese of other races it's not even close to viable in a tournament setting. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:12 -Archangel- wrote: It is not like he is giving us a build that will let you win all tournaments. It is an all in that works as well as terran marine+scv all in if it is not scouted in time and not reacted in time. Lets just enjoy some easy wins that will let us not be as frustrated when playing Zerg. After losing to some stupid early all in from terran or toss this rush is a perfect way to let off some steam, better then 6-7 pooling. exactly my thoughts. Also, if it becomes prevalent, it will force T/P into more honest play, instead of being able to ignore almost all early Z aggression. This may actually make my thumb up steppes of war... | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:43 CanucksJC wrote: Can you pull out your zealot and build pylon in that place and build 2-3 gateways to block off your ramp until your wp finishes? Warpgates hasn't even started researching when the roaches pop, you are going to have to wait a long time for that. Probably better to just wall in with another gateway or forge, chrono that stalker and go to town. Even if he kills your gateway you just have to surround the roaches with your probes + Zealot + Stalker and you should win the fight. By the time the rush hits you should be at around 22 probes, so even if you lose some you are pretty far a head, especially if you follow up with a 4WG, he just isn't going to have the eco to stop that Easily. Or you can build a Forge + Cannon in time. And chronoboost a stalker out. Maybe from a 9 scout, you probably wont have it out in time from a 13 scout or scouting them last on a 4player map EDIT: Watched the replay, that 3k Diamond toss handled it a bit poorly. He built a second extractor instead of building a cannon (delayed it), if he brought all his probes to defend, what would you have done? Your roaches would have taken too much damage to contest any further cannons. Or even worse, what if he sent that Zealot straight to your base whilst he defended with probes while the Cannons were building? | ||
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LWr
60 Posts
On February 22 2011 02:49 ch33psh33p wrote: So you're saying if you held off the first one, somehow you can't hold off a delayed, weaker one with less economy backing it and less scvs? This is offtopic but the only way to hold it off is to use (and lose) drones. Because of the MULE Terran is usually ahead in economy after the all-in. The exception to this is if Z makes early banelings and manages not to lose too many drones, or if he has really sick queen/ling/drone micro. | ||
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Ncinerate
172 Posts
On February 22 2011 03:50 Suptzs wrote: Hey Ncinerate, I have a build that gives you 2 more drones before you make roaches but doesn't affect the spawning time of the roaches: 9 Pool 10 Extractor as soon as you have ~70 Minerals 9 Drone 10 Roach Warren --> 2 Drones on gas 9 Drone 10 Overlord --> 3 Roaches Replay to see hatch time of roaches PS: As soon as I wrote this, I realized that the two additional drones won't allow you to build a 5th roach because you are capped at 18/18 after the 4th roach! I still post this in case anyone finds it usefull. Still a pretty cool variation on the build - more economy, faster followup once the OL is up... Course, the loss of the 5th roach might not make it worth it, in my experience with the build it seems the 5th roach seals the deal. Considering this is a pure all-in, I'm not sure the extra economy (or extra 2 drones on the attack if you bring em) would make up for the loss of an early roach. | ||
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