EPT
[G] IMYongHwa Korean 3 Stalker Robo - Page 5
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drooL
United Kingdom2108 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On February 14 2011 19:24 Dhalphir wrote: quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen. Put up or shut up, in other words. 1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up. | ||
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Perfi
Poland349 Posts
On February 15 2011 00:59 PJA wrote: 1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up. Would be nice to see some facts, not just you saying that it's "well-known". You might think it's true, it might be true, you might have seen the supporting evidence - we haven't, and it would be stupid to just trust a Random Guy From The Internet's opinion on it. If you have any proof that a well-done 1gate FE beats 3gate robo, then please, share it. | ||
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oygp
United States40 Posts
On February 15 2011 00:59 PJA wrote: 1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up. You sir, are a troll... gtfo | ||
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Perfi
Poland349 Posts
Yeah, that's essentially what I said. I mean... that's just a classic case of argumentum ad populum. You can't possibly expect people to take your one-liner and think it's enough to form a stance on the 1gate expo vs 3gate robo problem. | ||
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MARISA
Canada13 Posts
On February 15 2011 00:24 Logros wrote: This is catching on fast because I faced this a few times in a row now while I did the same thing. What transition do you guys prefer in a mirror? Right now I skipped the immortal and went straight for Colossus and mass up an army to kill their expo if they did or secure my own. I go for an expo and make collosi from my 1 robo but drop 2 stargates and start pumping voids. I try to hide my stargates + my voids as much as possible and keep my gateway/collosi army in the open so once our armies eventually clash he has too many collosi and not enough stalkers/his own voids to match me. I also chrono a warpprism after the obs and use the two to keep track of what he's doing + warp in his base if he moves out before I'm ready. Usually just warp in zealots and pick them up and run away when he responds and come back at a different spot or when he moves his stuff away again. | ||
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Tachyon
Denmark146 Posts
If not, what could be tweaked to do so? | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 14 2011 21:55 hifriend wrote: I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g. k4g beats almost any non-forge build if you don't scout it, it's just that k4g is easily scoutable (yes, even if you scout it last on 4-player maps). But that's not the point of this thread. You can literally say k4g beats 99% of protoss builds. That doesn't mean these builds are not viable. I've been doing a variation of this build on ladder probably for the past month or so and it works, you just have to be very aware of the timings and have good micro. Even so because of the early 2nd gate this build is still in pretty good shape even w/ late scouting. | ||
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DarkGeneral
Canada328 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:35 DarkGeneral wrote: if you don't find the proxy, cant you just FF your ramp till your Immortal is out? Yes definitely, as long as you force the proxy a good distance away from your ramp. | ||
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iNdo-Man
United States191 Posts
On February 15 2011 02:48 Tachyon wrote: Does this hold off the SoJu 3 gate? (5 zealots and 8 stalkers @ 6:13 game time, 12/21/22 gates) If not, what could be tweaked to do so? not to hijak the thread but more info on this? Is it just a 3gate push similar to 4gate? | ||
hifriend
China7935 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:20 Skyro wrote: k4g beats almost any non-forge build if you don't scout it, it's just that k4g is easily scoutable (yes, even if you scout it last on 4-player maps). But that's not the point of this thread. You can literally say k4g beats 99% of protoss builds. That doesn't mean these builds are not viable. I've been doing a variation of this build on ladder probably for the past month or so and it works, you just have to be very aware of the timings and have good micro. Even so because of the early 2nd gate this build is still in pretty good shape even w/ late scouting. Disregard my post skyro is right of course. I wasn't thinking properly. I mean you'll be at 12 gate with 2 chrono's spent on probes, but otherwise there's as much room to react as with any other build. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On February 15 2011 02:20 Perfi wrote: Yeah, that's essentially what I said. I mean... that's just a classic case of argumentum ad populum. You can't possibly expect people to take your one-liner and think it's enough to form a stance on the 1gate expo vs 3gate robo problem. Tbh, I truly believed that "1 gate fe > 3 gate robo" was common knowledge before I saw this thread, but I guess I took that for granted. Anyways, here's a replay of me doing 1 gate fe vs a 3 gate robo push. Keep in mind that that I don't do this build often so it's not as refined as I would like it to be. http://www.mediafire.com/?w0ee8b3ttmpiee6 Notice that the build looks exactly like a 4 gate until when the probe leaves. It usually forces your opponent to do a build that can defend 4 gate, but in this case I told my opponent to do the fastest 3 gate robo build he could to simulate the worst conditions for me. The rest of the game is very similar to the game that cecil posted earlier of 1 gate fe vs 3 gate robo. The differences are that I scouted better and knew a collosi all-in was coming based on what I scouted. I then preceded to cut probes, put down another cannon, and pump all units. I did a lot of things wrong that game, but I still held it off. Here's some things I could have done better: 1. Refine the early stages of the build. The order of the forge/gateways/probes could be very much refined. I feel like I don't need that cannon as early as I put it down vs his build. 2. I forgot to transfer probes that game I think. 3. My cannon placement sucked and actually wasn't hitting his units for a while. 4. I could have targeted collosi better. 5. I need to find a timing to add my 5th and 6th gates during the attack. 6. I could have managed chornos better throughout the game. Even with all these mistakes and minimal mistakes from my opponent, I was able to hold off the push with good scouting and probe cutting. Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
And I'm also unclear how you could deal with a Soju 3 gate build. It's easy to transition out of 4 gate to 3 gate when you scout this build. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On February 15 2011 07:17 4kmonk wrote: Tbh, I truly believed that "1 gate fe > 3 gate robo" was common knowledge before I saw this thread, but I guess I took that for granted. Anyways, here's a replay of me doing 1 gate fe vs a 3 gate robo push. Keep in mind that that I don't do this build often so it's not as refined as I would like it to be. http://www.mediafire.com/?w0ee8b3ttmpiee6 Notice that the build looks exactly like a 4 gate until when the probe leaves. It usually forces your opponent to do a build that can defend 4 gate, but in this case I told my opponent to do the fastest 3 gate robo build he could to simulate the worst conditions for me. The rest of the game is very similar to the game that cecil posted earlier of 1 gate fe vs 3 gate robo. The differences are that I scouted better and knew a collosi all-in was coming based on what I scouted. I then preceded to cut probes, put down another cannon, and pump all units. I did a lot of things wrong that game, but I still held it off. Here's some things I could have done better: 1. Refine the early stages of the build. The order of the forge/gateways/probes could be very much refined. I feel like I don't need that cannon as early as I put it down vs his build. 2. I forgot to transfer probes that game I think. 3. My cannon placement sucked and actually wasn't hitting his units for a while. 4. I could have targeted collosi better. 5. I need to find a timing to add my 5th and 6th gates during the attack. 6. I could have managed chornos better throughout the game. Even with all these mistakes and minimal mistakes from my opponent, I was able to hold off the push with good scouting and probe cutting. Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising. You probably should play a lot of games and make a replay pack, as well as find as many high level games of this situation as you can, and then make your argument in your own thread. This thread is about the Korean 3 Stalker Robo build, not about whether or not a 3 Gate Robo can defeat a 1 Gate FE based off of a single replay. For all we know once you find out he fast expoed you can expo yourself, as you should have map control with your initial units in order to gain that information. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On February 15 2011 07:42 whoopadeedoo wrote: Also, what would happen if Toss steals your gas seeing that you didn't build that first zealot? You can go for a normal 4 gate...? | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
Well, it'd be a 4 gate minus 1 zealot and one WG research CB (fwiw, I'm not convinced the timing would allow an efficient transition back to 4 gate .. you're probably going to be considerably behind ... gotta test). I guess this is offset somewhat by the 75 min used on the gas steal. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On February 15 2011 07:41 CecilSunkure wrote: You probably should play a lot of games and make a replay pack, as well as find as many high level games of this situation as you can, and then make your argument in your own thread. This thread is about the Korean 3 Stalker Robo build, not about whether or not a 3 Gate Robo can defeat a 1 Gate FE based off of a single replay. For all we know once you find out he fast expoed you can expo yourself, as you should have map control with your initial units in order to gain that information. Yea, I agree with everything you said. Sorry for hijacking your thread, but if you look about 3 pages back I had a very good point about your build and for some reason, it got derailed into people doubting whether 1 gate fe can hold that 3 gate robo push. | ||
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iNdo-Man
United States191 Posts
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: ... Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising. I lost a in a tournament b/c i did k4wg, as soon as he knew he couldnt stop the pylon warp in he immediately boxed probes and continued with the above tactic. it worked, we base traded he build pylons around the map as did i but i could not do anything about stalkers kiting me. in the end.. stalkers > zlot i guess "losing ur whole fucking base" is never a good idea but in this case.. if u get k4wg and u have 5-6 stalkers already at his main.. just proceed to trade and build pylons around the map, u will win in the end most likely | ||
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