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On February 15 2011 08:35 iNdo-Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote:
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Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising.
I lost a in a tournament b/c i did k4wg, as soon as he knew he couldnt stop the pylon warp in he immediately boxed probes and continued with the above tactic. it worked, we base traded he build pylons around the map as did i but i could not do anything about stalkers kiting me. in the end.. stalkers > zlot i guess "losing ur whole fucking base" is never a good idea but in this case.. if u get k4wg and u have 5-6 stalkers already at his main.. just proceed to trade and build pylons around the map, u will win in the end most likely
Please try and keep things on-topic? TT
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I have been playing around with this build this evening on the ladder and so far, I like it. It's quite refreshing but still seems very viable. As you mentioned in the OP, I'm really interested in seeing what are the good transitions based on scouting in case the opponent is not aggressive because it's something I feel I was lacking tonight.
Other than that, very good job and thank you for your guide 
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United States8476 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:39 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 08:35 iNdo-Man wrote:On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote:
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Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising.
I lost a in a tournament b/c i did k4wg, as soon as he knew he couldnt stop the pylon warp in he immediately boxed probes and continued with the above tactic. it worked, we base traded he build pylons around the map as did i but i could not do anything about stalkers kiting me. in the end.. stalkers > zlot i guess "losing ur whole fucking base" is never a good idea but in this case.. if u get k4wg and u have 5-6 stalkers already at his main.. just proceed to trade and build pylons around the map, u will win in the end most likely Please try and keep things on-topic? TT
This is actually somewhat on topic, as it can be a way for your build to stop a korean 4 gate if you scout him last on a 4 player map.
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On February 15 2011 09:36 4kmonk wrote:
This is actually somewhat on topic, as it can be a way for your build to stop a korean 4 gate if you scout him last on a 4 player map.
I dont' think it'd loose against it. Pretty sure that the whole point of this opening is to deny the close proxy pylon. Once that's removed, you'll have a sentry blocking the ramps right until your warp gates finish.
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United States191 Posts
yea for real... just saying if u get k4wg'ed (lol what a verb) u can pump some stalks and base trade...
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Korean 4 gate is just really only dangerous in one of two situations
1) You don't know what it is or how to recognise it. if you treat it like a normal 4gate you'll just die.
2) You forgot about the possibility of it in a moment of inattention and didn't check for probes being pulled off gas.
This 3gate Robo variation outlined in this thread is more than capable of handling K4WG as long as you keep your cool and notice whats coming.
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I watched all of your replays and not convinced that this build is a good choice...
You cut probes too much for my liking but nice of you to spend your time uploading replays and posting here
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Why would you go 3 gate's with a robo I wonder... 2 gate robo exactly fits what you can produce on 1 base so why bother to invest in a 3rd gate? It only messes up timings (the last gate will likely finish after WG tech) and means you have to cut probes alot more.
Imo 2 gate robo builds are just strictly superior to 3 gate robo builds as there is no extra safety in that 3rd gate. It will simply result only in less units then more, unless for some reason you want to not make immortals at some point at which point you should consider why you went robo in the first place...
For the rest I think the build works fine but is highly dependant on how well your first few stalkers can keep off the proxy pylon. In some maps this is practically impossible as for example on steppes the proxy pylon behind the destructible rocks is just too hard to reach with your stalkers.
A good 4 gate with a proxy somewhere midmap followed up by a proxy next to your ramp (for the 2nd wave) will still roll over this imo, the wg tech simply comes online too late imo.
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On February 15 2011 11:41 Markwerf wrote:
Why would you go 3 gate's with a robo I wonder... 2 gate robo exactly fits what you can produce on 1 base so why bother to invest in a 3rd gate? It only messes up timings (the last gate will likely finish after WG tech) and means you have to cut probes alot more.
Imo 2 gate robo builds are just strictly superior to 3 gate robo builds as there is no extra safety in that 3rd gate. It will simply result only in less units then more, unless for some reason you want to not make immortals at some point at which point you should consider why you went robo in the first place...
For the rest I think the build works fine but is highly dependant on how well your first few stalkers can keep off the proxy pylon. In some maps this is practically impossible as for example on steppes the proxy pylon behind the destructible rocks is just too hard to reach with your stalkers.
A good 4 gate with a proxy somewhere midmap followed up by a proxy next to your ramp (for the 2nd wave) will still roll over this imo, the wg tech simply comes online too late imo.
Against a persistent 4 gate, you need the 3rd gate to keep up. If he is smart, he tries to poke, you FF him and only get a Zealot, he's going to pull back, put a pylon immediately adjacent to your ramp, push up as it warps in, and try to break you. Having an extra gate is wonderful for preventing last 2nd all ins.
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Thanks for sharing, so now we don't have to 4gate with a few more probes or rush the 4gater before his WG finishes :D
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Very nice topic, I would add that Koreans most of the time scout with the probe after 12gate in PvP, makes things much smoother. YongHwa scouted after gate in that specific game too. Only difference is that you have to scout possible proxy locations first - on 2-player maps and even on 4-player map sometimes.
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good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
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On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote:
good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
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very cool i will try this one later 
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anyone have a refined build order? The one listed seems really clunky and my build just doesn't flow smoothly at all. I'm usually gas and mineral starved around the timing where you drop robo/gateway/sentry.
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On February 16 2011 06:08 Zefa wrote:
anyone have a refined build order? The one listed seems really clunky and my build just doesn't flow smoothly at all. I'm usually gas and mineral starved around the timing where you drop robo/gateway/sentry.
You're doing something wrong then. You can copy the build yourself from the VOD I linked in the OP. As far as I remember the small probe cuts are about 1/4-1/2 of a second long, and YongHwa does them himself.
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This strategy is SOOO prevalent in PvP already, and everyone sucks ASS at it haha. Common mistakes I see are not splitting up stalkers, not going after the probe instead of zealot/stalker, and not having stalkers back at base while I'm warping in (allowing the proxy pylon close to base is a prerequite for that last one, in which case they already lost).
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Very fun options against even the most brutal of 4 warpgates. You're barely behind on probes compared to other 2gate robo builds that DIE to 4 warpgate, but come out ahead in Robo vs. Robo wars (Faster robo, more probes).
Advantages:
* 3 stalkers roving around, killing proxy pylon building probes and the initial zealot-stalker poke. Chrono boosted units give you a period before WG tech finishes where your army is king of the map.
* If you scout your opponent taking his second gas before stalker pops, you can opt for a more economical version that delays the third gate for a pylon and continued probe production. I.E. not intentionally being 3 stalkers 20 probes supply capped at 26/26 if you know a 1gas 4wg isn't coming.
* It's a robo build. You get options against common strats like 3gate blinkstalker and DT rush.
* If your opponent FE's, you can FE yourself OR attack with 2-3 colossus and zealot-heavy. I would opt for expanding myself, but the preference is out there. I kinda like having the all-in to punish a poorly thought-out expansion up my sleeve to break out when my opponent's way too comfortable.
Props for the testing. I'm seeing a lot of variance in the robo then gateway then pylon in your replays (it took me a couple looks back at the post then the replays to realize you aren't doing the same thing), so I would highly recommend posting some more recent replays where you dependably execute the 3stalker + sentry + immortal (& 2 zealots) defense at the ramp. I might even post some of mine, though I haven't seen the killer 4wg lately on the ladder to have a replay of that. Just a lot of basic 2gate robo's and 3gate FE's.
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@ OP
I spent the last 2 hours doing this build in yabot and then some custom games.
The optimal version goes...
2x chrono on nexus
1x chrono on stalker + 1x chrono on cybercore
1x chrono on next stalker from 1st gateway
1x chrono on stalker from newly completely gateway (2nd gateway)
1x chrono on warp gate
by the time robo finishes you almost be able to chronoboost twice if need be.
Ive tried it a ton of different ways, but when i do it this way my warpgates finish at ~5:40-5:45 because of the 2x boost. The final chrono on warpgate actually should wear off almost perfectly in time with when the upgrade finishes.
Also, I wouldnt assume your probe is going to die, it should almost never die before its relevant to the build. Instead, I found the best results with cutting probes at 20. This is the same time you add the second gas. If you do this, theres no possible supply block with your 3 stalkers, which are really the crux of the build. Additionally, with the minerals you save you will be at 100 as soon as you start the third stalker anyways so you can put down a pylon and start back up probe production sooner. Since this build seems geared towards stopping the 1 gas 20 probe 4 gate.. I would say its perfectly fine to stop at 20 probes for a little bit to ensure you get those stalkers out ASAP to find their probe and 'probe escorts' as i call them. The sooner you find them the more likely this build is to work.
I really like it, its very precise and with all variations my robo goes down at pretty much exactly the 5 minute mark. I dont think this build will work well for beginners as its much harder to pull off than the 4 gate itself simply because it requires good multi-tasking to get the build crisp.
I did this optimal version in practice against AI. You can see how nicely the chronoboosts fit given my above method. You can also see how i have minerals for for the pylon immediately when starting the 3rd stalker. Obviously in a real game you'll be microing around, but with enough hand speed and awareness this is about as good as it gets for timing imo. Please review it and let me know if I've missed anything cecil.
Here's the replay: http://rapidshare.com/files/448204954/Optimized_PvP_opener__I_think_.SC2Replay
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Interesting read, looks fun. Will try it out when I find the time.
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EPT
