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On February 14 2011 18:16 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 17:40 Dhalphir wrote:
Wouldn't a 1gate FE be more than completely telegraphed well in advance of actually throwing down the robo? At this point you could just transition into an ordinary (albeit delayed) 4gate to take the game.
I don't think anyone is going to do a 1gate FE against a 4gate or even a 3gate and this is exactly what this build looks like until the robo goes down. Unless you spot the nexus or somehow get into his base after the stalker chases you out, there's no way to choose between robo or 2 additional games in time for this build. The robo timing for this build is around 4:50, usually way before you can get scouting information as to ascertain what build he's doing. Even if you can figure out he's 1 gate feing and thus cancel your robo and throw down 2 gates, he still has a slightly chance of holding you off because of your delayed gates. The 2nd point I agree with though. Most people won't 1 gate fe after seeing that opening, but some people still will and then you'll be way behind. Another coin flip of pvp =/.
I've never seen a 1 gate FE in PvP... are you sure you know what you're talking about??
In any case, I would think that a 1 gate FE would lose very easily to this 3 gate robo build.
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For 1 gate fe which is blatantly obvious if you are somewhat present on the map with stalkers/probes you could just drop a twilight and keep producing stalkers. I usually crush that build with a bit of blink micro. (did this on x pos metal and he didn't have much of a chance.)
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United States8476 Posts
Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
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On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote:
Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
From my experience a 3 gate blink build hits before the 1 gate fe production really starts to set in, but that could easily be my lowly masters opponents doing it incorrectly I guess. Got any games specifically I could look up? I've seen a fair amount of adelscott games but not a whole lot of 1 gate fe.
Or some of your own replays for that matter. 
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On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote:
Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
Put up or shut up, in other words.
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On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote:
Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
Good luck holding a 4 gate -.-
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Good job.. I'll look into this
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United States8476 Posts
I watched the replay and that guy made 3 key mistakes. First, he had a lack of scouting. He didn't know if you were counter expanding or all-ing him. Secondly, he didn't cut probes early enough. He went as far as 52 probes with 4 gas while you stayed on one base. Finally, he tried to beat a collosi all-in with collosi, something you never want to do from a 1 gate fe. You either want to:
a. overwhelm with gateway units
b. voidrays
c. blink stalkers
I'm going to sleep now, but I'll play some games tomorrow and post some replays.
Also, it's pretty obvious scarecrow did not read this entire thread and is commenting out of context.
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On February 14 2011 20:36 4kmonk wrote:I watched the replay and that guy made 3 key mistakes. First, he had a lack of scouting. He didn't know if you were counter expanding or all-ing him. Secondly, he didn't cut probes early enough. He went as far as 52 probes with 4 gas while you stayed on one base. Finally, he tried to beat a collosi all-in with collosi, something you never want to do from a 1 gate fe. You either want to: a. overwhelm with gateway units b. voidrays c. blink stalkers I'm going to sleep now, but I'll play some games tomorrow and post some replays. Also, it's pretty obvious scarecrow did not read this entire thread and is commenting out of context.
If you do get some replays, make a thread dedicated to that build specifically. It would be interesting to see what you can come up with, I still think it's really exposed at certain timings and kind of relies on opponents not scouting/reacting correctly.
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Yeah I'd be really interested to see what 1gate FE is like in a PvP, I was under the impression it was mostly a PvT strat.
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On February 14 2011 20:46 Dhalphir wrote:
Yeah I'd be really interested to see what 1gate FE is like in a PvP, I was under the impression it was mostly a PvT strat.
I don't think a 1 gate FE in PvP will work if the other player just does a normal 4 Gate (assuming both players are same skill level).
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On February 14 2011 18:16 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote:
Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved. You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
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On February 14 2011 21:45 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 18:16 4kmonk wrote:On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote:
Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved. You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build. So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g.
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On February 14 2011 21:55 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 21:45 ondik wrote:On February 14 2011 18:16 4kmonk wrote:On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote:
Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved. You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build. So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it? I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g.
Just go out and test it against someone who knows how to k4g
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 14 2011 20:51 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 20:46 Dhalphir wrote:
Yeah I'd be really interested to see what 1gate FE is like in a PvP, I was under the impression it was mostly a PvT strat. I don't think a 1 gate FE in PvP will work if the other player just does a normal 4 Gate (assuming both players are same skill level).
It's usually a 4gate FE (or atleast that's what I played around with). Instead of doing a round of stalker warp ins you expand instead. Obviously if you scout 4gate you don't expand and you warp in as you normally would, but if you scout anything other than 4gate you expand and pray. I tend to not like expand builds in pvp though, unless it's after blink stalker.
On February 14 2011 21:55 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 21:45 ondik wrote:On February 14 2011 18:16 4kmonk wrote:On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote:
Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved. You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build. So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it? I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g. k4g requires a very specific response to counter, you would never use this build against a k4g - ever. If you're scouting early enough you will always be able to react and adapt.
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I'd be perfectly willing to auto-lose every K4WG just to not have to worry about any other type of 4gate by using this build.
That said I'm fairly sure you could react in time. K4WG is ridiculously easy to scout if you know what to look for.
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Had some success with it @2800-2900 masters. But you really have to find this f*kin probe and kill it. Sniping the first zealot also means gg (most of the time). But there's a little timing window where your immortal is halfway done and you have only 1 sentry.
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This is catching on fast because I faced this a few times in a row now while I did the same thing. What transition do you guys prefer in a mirror? Right now I skipped the immortal and went straight for Colossus and mass up an army to kill their expo if they did or secure my own.
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EPT
