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On February 14 2011 10:52 da_head wrote:
nicely done! so it best to use this build only if u suspect a 4 gate? what if your opponent does a normal 2 gate or 3 gate robo? how behind will u be economically?
I posted two replays earlier.
You aren't behind at all. You only cut probes for a couple seconds here and there to fit the minerals required into your build for the various buildings.
If your opponent does a normal 3gate robo, as in this game
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188697.jpg)
you're perfectly capable of holding your own.
And if the opponent does do the 4gate, as in this game I played with a friend of mine
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188700.jpg)
you're able to hold it.
The build transitions well into 1 base colossus, so thats usually what I do, but you could easily expand off it vs a 4gate.
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On February 14 2011 11:16 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 10:52 da_head wrote:
nicely done! so it best to use this build only if u suspect a 4 gate? what if your opponent does a normal 2 gate or 3 gate robo? how behind will u be economically? I posted two replays earlier. You aren't behind at all. You only cut probes for a couple seconds here and there to fit the minerals required into your build for the various buildings. If your opponent does a normal 3gate robo, as in this game you're perfectly capable of holding your own. And if the opponent does do the 4gate, as in this game I played with a friend of mine you're able to hold it. The build transitions well into 1 base colossus, so thats usually what I do, but you could easily expand off it vs a 4gate.
Very very interesting...seems like i have a new standard build for pvp 
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I'm kind of concerned about a person who did zealot stalker stalker move out and proxy a pylon far away. Having chrono'd the core nonstop, they throw a round of units at the proxy pylon (that doesn't have to be close) and move in up the ramp while building a pylon. Since you don't have the sentry yet, you cant ff the ramp and the army is briefly larger than yours cause your warp gates hasnt finished.
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It really is a perfect "standard" build to have in PvP. It has the flexibility of robo tech, giving you the observer should they not 4gate, but it has the resilience to survive 4gate with proper use of your early stalkers.
I've actually tried this build a couple of times only making 2 stalkers and getting the robo sooner.
it just doesn't work. Sometimes you can get lucky and find the probe coming to make the pylon, but 2 stalkers have a more difficult time not only finding the pylon in time (there are at least 3 great spots for proxy pylons on every map that I can think of off the top of my head) but 2 stalkers also sometimes can't get the pylon destroyed in time before he warps in units, where 3 stalkers can.
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On February 14 2011 11:30 slained wrote:
I'm kind of concerned about a person who did zealot stalker stalker move out and proxy a pylon far away. Having chrono'd the core nonstop, they throw a round of units at the proxy pylon (that doesn't have to be close) and move in up the ramp while building a pylon. Since you don't have the sentry yet, you cant ff the ramp and the army is briefly larger than yours cause your warp gates hasnt finished.
This exact situation happens in the second of the two games I posted above. He warps in his first round of units far away and escorts his probe up to make pylons closer denying my stalkers from killing anything.
3 stalkers at the top of the ramp can deny any proxy pylon close enough to warp up the ramp, you can just FF the ramp to prevent any units getting up while you snipe it. By the time that first FF wears off, you'll have your immortal out and hopefully another sentry.
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you will have to adjust this when the guy sends his first zealot at you.
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given that you chronoboost a stalker the second the cybercore finishes I THINK a stalker would be out in time on all but the shortest maps.
Someone who is 4gating also generally does not go for a zealot first, if he does, it delays the core and by extension delays the 4gate. Getting a Zealot yourself in that situation to defend is no big deal as you will have more time to hold off the 4gate if it happens.
I'll try to get a replay of that happening at some point.
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On February 14 2011 12:33 snow2.0 wrote:
you will have to adjust this when the guy sends his first zealot at you.
No, you won't. You'll get a stalker out in time extremely easily on all maps that aren't retardedly tiny and small like Steppes of War.
On February 14 2011 11:30 slained wrote:
I'm kind of concerned about a person who did zealot stalker stalker move out and proxy a pylon far away. Having chrono'd the core nonstop, they throw a round of units at the proxy pylon (that doesn't have to be close) and move in up the ramp while building a pylon. Since you don't have the sentry yet, you cant ff the ramp and the army is briefly larger than yours cause your warp gates hasnt finished.
Are you REQSlained that knows my friend nGsSoju? We can play around a bit sometime with the timings if like and see how zealot stalker stalker goes. As far as I know zealot stalker stalker will make it easier to set up the proxy pylon, but I'm wary of saying you can't get a sentry out in time.
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I've been using a very similar build with slight nuances for a while (took quite a few losses learning the nuances), but the basic premise is the same w/ 3 stalkers to stop/delay the initial probe escort. It doesn't work well on maps where you can warp in from other places than the ramp (i.e. DQ) and it takes a lot of map awareness and common pylon placements. Plus you need good micro, know how to position your units on the ramp, etc.
That said it is a fun build. Often times failed 4-gates will turn into a contain, so I usually transition into blink stalkers since my army will be very stalker heavy. You'll have the probe and gas advantage so once blink finishes you can often just roll his army and win the game.
My version for reference:
• 9 Pylon
• 13 Gate (chrono Probes)
• 14 Gas
• 16 Pylon
• 17 Core
• 19 Gate
• 20 Stalker (chrono Warpgate)
• 23 Pylon (chrono Warpgate)
• 24 Stalker
• 27 Stalker (chrono)
• 29 Gate
• 30 Gas
• 31 Pylon (chrono Warpgate)
• 32 Sentry + Stalker
• 36 Pylon
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Excellent post, sir. I've been doing the AdelScott counter to 4 gate with success, but this is way better. I finally feel like I have the upper hand in PvP again. Fuck yeah, TL community!
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Awesome. This could make PvP enjoyable again!
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United States8477 Posts
Here's my take on this build or any build that attempts to "counter" the standard 4 gate. I don't think of builds as countering 4 gate but rather as how well they do vs all different things your opponent could do off of 1 gas and 3 chornoboosts saved up on their nexus. This opening looks exactly like a 4 gate, but in reality, I would say your opponent could do one of 3 types of things after your probe gets chased out by his stalker:
1. Standard 4 gate
2. Fast expand aka 1 gate fe
3. Gas after probe leaves and some type of tech build
Imo this is the true test of anti standard 4-gate builds vs "the standard 4 gate opener". Looking at your build, it looks fine vs a standard 4 gate. At my first glance, it seems fine vs a tech build as well. The only problem is vs a 1 gate fe. I'm theorcrafting here, but I don't think you can punish a 1 gate fe very well with this build.
The other problem is that you put down your 2nd gate before the enemy probe leaves your base, which is telegraphing to your opponent your opening.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'm theorcrafting here, but I don't think you can punish a 1 gate fe very well with this build. With proper scouting you should be able to transition into Colossus play and go for a timing push. I think! Since you're being so active with your first stalkers it should be obvious if he isn't going for a 4gate, hinting that he's either expanding or teching.
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On February 14 2011 16:11 4kmonk wrote:
Here's my take on this build or any build that attempts to "counter" the standard 4 gate. I don't think of builds as countering 4 gate but rather as how well they do vs all different things your opponent could do off of 1 gas and 3 chornoboosts saved up on their nexus. This opening looks exactly like a 4 gate, but in reality, I would say your opponent could do one of 3 types of things after your probe gets chased out by his stalker:
1. Standard 4 gate
2. Fast expand aka 1 gate fe
3. Gas after probe leaves and some type of tech build
Imo this is the true test of anti standard 4-gate builds vs "the standard 4 gate opener". Looking at your build, it looks fine vs a standard 4 gate. At my first glance, it seems fine vs a tech build as well. The only problem is vs a 1 gate fe. I'm theorcrafting here, but I don't think you can punish a 1 gate fe very well with this build.
The other problem is that you put down your 2nd gate before the enemy probe leaves your base, which is telegraphing to your opponent your opening.
Your stalkers give you map control if the opponent isn't 4gating, and there is no way he could hide a 1gate FE from you. At which you go 1base Colossus, I think, and take it from there.
It is pretty difficult to beat 2 Colossi with 8-9 gateway units as support (which is what you have with 1base Colossus) without Colossi of your own.
Its an interesting idea though and I'd love to test it out.
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Really fun and enjoyable having those early stalkers with something substantial to retreat upon =) Many thanks for the post, and the effort that went into copying the build seen in the VOD!
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United States8477 Posts
I'm very confident that 1 base collosi just straight up loses to 1 gate fe. In fact, if your opponent manages to get a 1 gate fe up, you're just behind unless you went 4 gate. The amount of gateway units you could get would way overwhelm any type of collosi timing push. You also have the options of voidrays or blink stalker base trade with your 2 base econ. If you think about it, the expansion will be up for about 6 minutes before any type of collosi push. If a 1 base collosi push can beat 6 minutes of additional income, then collosi are truly imbalanced.
Also, yes, your opponent probably won't be able to hide his 1 gate fe, but even if you scout it, you have no ability to punish it early, and if you don't you're behind. In fact the more I think about it, the more confident I am that 1 gate fe will crush this build. The strength of your attacking army peaks at when you have 3 stalkers and then as time goes on rapidly diminishes. The only thing that might prevent your opponent from 1 gate feing is the threat of a 4 gate from you.
Also, you don't necessarily have map control when doing this build. If you're unsure if your opponent is doing a 4 gate or 1 gate fe, you definitely should begin retreating your stalkers to your main around 5:10-5:20. I've had countless times doing a similar build where I've been flanked by warping in stalkers when i'm killing another pylon. Thus, you might truly have map control vs 1 gate fe but not perceived map control. Thus, imo you have to rely on a probe for scouting.
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Wouldn't a 1gate FE be more than completely telegraphed well in advance of actually throwing down the robo? At this point you could just transition into an ordinary (albeit delayed) 4gate to take the game.
I don't think anyone is going to do a 1gate FE against a 4gate or even a 3gate and this is exactly what this build looks like until the robo goes down.
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Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
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United States8477 Posts
On February 14 2011 17:40 Dhalphir wrote:
Wouldn't a 1gate FE be more than completely telegraphed well in advance of actually throwing down the robo? At this point you could just transition into an ordinary (albeit delayed) 4gate to take the game.
I don't think anyone is going to do a 1gate FE against a 4gate or even a 3gate and this is exactly what this build looks like until the robo goes down.
Unless you spot the nexus or somehow get into his base after the stalker chases you out, there's no way to choose between robo or 2 additional games in time for this build. The robo timing for this build is around 4:50, usually way before you can get scouting information as to ascertain what build he's doing. Even if you can figure out he's 1 gate feing and thus cancel your robo and throw down 2 gates, he still has a slightly chance of holding you off because of your delayed gates.
The 2nd point I agree with though. Most people won't 1 gate fe after seeing that opening, but some people still will and then you'll be way behind. Another coin flip of pvp =/.
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United States8477 Posts
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote:
Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
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EPT
