Overview While watching the GSL team league, there were some particularly interesting PvP games. One of the most interesting however was a match between IMYongHwa and ZeNEXFFMon. FFMon did a boring 3 gate blink stalker build, whilst IMYongHwa did a peculiar 3 Gate Robo build.
Current 2 or 3 Gate Robo builds just die to a well executed 4 Gate, and this is a sad fact. In order to get your robo up and get immortals out, AND be safe from a well executed 4 Gate, you need to delay the 4 Gate somehow. This build utilizes a fast 3 stalkers to deny proxy pylons in order to buy enough time to get a force out capable of defending a 4 Warpgate Rush.
Once second Gateway finishes chrono a stalker out of it**
After your third Stalker is ordered place a Pylon as fast as you can followed by a Robo and then a Gateway. Directly after this order a Sentry and spend one Chronoboost on it.
**In order to get this Stalker out in time you have to have exactly 24/26 supply. If you constantly make probes you'll end up with 25/26 unless your initial scout probe dies. If your first scout probe doesn't die you HAVE to stop probe production (until the next pylon finishes) to get your third stalker out as fast as possible!
Your sentry should finish just as Warpgate tech finishes, and your robo should finish shortly thereafter. Morph both gateways into warpgates, and warp in two zealots. Ideally you'll be up your ramp with three stalkers two zealots and a sentry, with a double chrono immortal about to pop, with the third gateway just finishing.
Note: Every single stalker has one chronoboost, the sentry has one chronoboost, and the immortal has two chronoboost. Only two initial chronoboosts are spent on the Nexus.
3 Stalkers This build revolves around your three initial stalkers. These stalkers are what are going to keep you alive against a good 4 gate rush. You use them to kill off the Zealot Stalker and Probe (if you can) and then snipe the proxy pylon. Your goal in using these three stalkers is to force your opponent to proxy their warpin pylon as far away as possible. With good micro it is entirely possible to kill off their stalker, zealot and probe then return to your base. I've been able to win with this build as long as I can get the proxy pylon a good distance away from my base.
In order for this build to work you have to be able to be very active with your first three stalkers.
Defending the 4 Wargate Attack Assuming you've pulled everything off decently (instead of perfectly, if you pulled the build off perfectly they would have no proxy pylon at all), you should end up with 2-3 stalkers, a sentry, 2 zealots, with an immortal almost completed just as the enemy runs up your ramp with about 5 stalkers that warped in from a far away proxy pylon. Use your force field to split their army in half. When you do this make sure to get a good chunk of their army above the ramp so you can kill it off, but don't let too much up.
This is the type of situation you'll be in if you execute the build correctly.
Reacting The beauty of this build is the ability to react to your opponent in the event that they do not show a ton of aggression. Perhaps they are also teching. Once your robotics facility completes you can chrono out an observer and head it on over to the opponent's base! This is precisely what IMYongHwa does in his PvP match during the first GSL Team League against ZeNEXFFMon. The ideal reaction to every scenario the opposing Protoss can force you into is very unexplored, although a very good reaction to 3 Gate Blink Stalkers can be seen in the VOD linked at the top of this post. This section will be updated as time passes and people figure out what to do from where depending on scouting info gathered.
Replays and VODs Here is a GSL 2011 Championship match of TT1 vs sanZenith.
Here is a small replay pack of me trying this build out. Bear with me, as the only reference I had for this build was the VOD during the last GSL, so I had no clue exactly what to do against a typical well executed 4 gate. I win a decent amount of matches very convincingly. You should easily be able to tell some key things about what to do and what not to do with this build by watching my trial and error process.
Interested in finding builds on your own? Don't know exactly how to learn from better players like I did in this post? I just happened to be streaming and recorded the entire creation of this build order! Check it out here: http://bit.ly/gpH3wS
Experimented this hardcore with Cecil, it's pretty golden with any decent amount of micro. At first I thought it has a lot of chance (whether or not you'll find the pylon) but with 3 stalkers you can easily cover your half of the map. solid 4gate counter.
A god amongst mortals. I watched Cecil tweak and tune this build on his livestream. It has a ton of potential and really might be the thing we Protoss have been waiting for.
Thanks a ton! KCDC has competition for powerful Protoss innovation.
Do you generally split the stalkers up to look for the pylon or keep them together? Separate they'd be vulnerable to the stalker/zealot of your opponent, but together they'd take longer to find the pylon.
Yeah I do split the Stalkers up to cover more ground if I know the opponent's Stalker/Zealot aren't going to catch and kill one. As you can see in my replays, whenever I didn't find the proxy pylon I lost.
This is a great thread cecil, thanks a bunch, and will definantly be trying it on my next pvp match ups, been getting so tired of the standard 4gates and collosus battles that are now the norm on pvp
Plexa: "without proper execution" did you manage to deny the proxy pylon? seems like that is a key feature of this build and if you don't manage to deny it or keep it far away from your base you will lose.
On February 13 2011 16:14 Dhalphir wrote: Plexa: "without proper execution" did you manage to deny the proxy pylon? seems like that is a key feature of this build and if you don't manage to deny it or keep it far away from your base you will lose.
Cecil killed one of my proxy pylons he couldnt stop the double proxy pylon at the bottom of his ramp with zealot warpins though.
On February 13 2011 16:14 Dhalphir wrote: Plexa: "without proper execution" did you manage to deny the proxy pylon? seems like that is a key feature of this build and if you don't manage to deny it or keep it far away from your base you will lose.
Cecil killed one of my proxy pylons he couldnt stop the double proxy pylon at the bottom of his ramp with zealot warpins though.
On February 13 2011 16:14 Dhalphir wrote: Plexa: "without proper execution" did you manage to deny the proxy pylon? seems like that is a key feature of this build and if you don't manage to deny it or keep it far away from your base you will lose.
Cecil killed one of my proxy pylons he couldnt stop the double proxy pylon at the bottom of his ramp with zealot warpins though.
What IS the response to that?
Play better. I think I lost a stalker due to mis-micro. I also had some poor micro at the top of my ramp. I hate to make excuses, but during the match there was some drama between my girlfriend and I, so I was slightly distracted while playing
This was a ladder game on Steppes. Opponent didn't actually 4gate, so this is a good example of how this isn't a build that auto-loses to anything else. I actually thought he was 4gating for a while, so I made the Immortal anyway. If you know he's not 4gating you can skip it and go right to the observer. I chose to go 1base Colossus off this, but you could choose to expo too.
This was a practise game vs a friend of mine. We played a couple more before this but he was rusty at the 4gate and didn't quite execute it correctly. This one was pretty much flawless, I actually didn't manage to find the proxy pylon but it turned out he chose to warp in his first round of units at home to shepherd the probe up. Meant a later pylon, but as you can see my stalkers had full coverage of my half of the base and would have found almost any pylon that was close enough to give me trouble. In addition if he hadn't warped in that first round of units at home I could have picked off his zealot or probe.
This is going to be my new go-to build for PvP. No more Korean 4WG for me.
On February 13 2011 13:34 Sleight wrote: A god amongst mortals. I watched Cecil tweak and tune this build on his livestream. It has a ton of potential and really might be the thing we Protoss have been waiting for.
Thanks a ton! KCDC has competition for powerful Protoss innovation.
On February 13 2011 13:34 Sleight wrote: A god amongst mortals. I watched Cecil tweak and tune this build on his livestream. It has a ton of potential and really might be the thing we Protoss have been waiting for.
Thanks a ton! KCDC has competition for powerful Protoss innovation.
Didn't he get the build from IMYongHwa??
He did but the work required to correctly interpret a build order from a VOD rather than a replay as well as detect the nuances that you need the 3 stalkers is not to be underestimated.
On February 13 2011 19:25 Dhalphir wrote: Just as a note for those reading this, the VOD is incorrectly labelled on the site as ZeNEXPuzzle vs IMYongHwa. It is ZeNEXFFMon.
this is what I have been doing ever since studying WHite-Ra's PVP, except with 2 stalkers. For the third unit I get out a sentry (chrono'd). Because usually what happens is I manage to snipe his probe, but it gets off a proxy pylon in time. I can't kill the pylon because the stalker+zealot he has delays for long enough that he gets his 4x warp in. So I need a sentry to forcefield in time.
On February 13 2011 20:06 W2 wrote: this is what I have been doing ever since studying WHite-Ra's PVP, except with 2 stalkers. For the third unit I get out a sentry (chrono'd). Because usually what happens is I manage to snipe his probe, but it gets off a proxy pylon in time. I can't kill the pylon because the stalker+zealot he has delays for long enough that he gets his 4x warp in. So I need a sentry to forcefield in time.
You're not meant to keep the stalkers at your base to snipe the pylon that goes down below your ramp. You're meant to send them out into the map as soon as each one is done to try to find the probe thats making the pylon and kill it, preferably before it ever gets one made, but if it does get one done, you can send the other stalkers to kill it. Warpgate won't be done yet at this point for him.
On February 13 2011 20:06 W2 wrote: this is what I have been doing ever since studying WHite-Ra's PVP, except with 2 stalkers. For the third unit I get out a sentry (chrono'd). Because usually what happens is I manage to snipe his probe, but it gets off a proxy pylon in time. I can't kill the pylon because the stalker+zealot he has delays for long enough that he gets his 4x warp in. So I need a sentry to forcefield in time.
You're not meant to keep the stalkers at your base to snipe the pylon that goes down below your ramp. You're meant to send them out into the map as soon as each one is done to try to find the probe thats making the pylon and kill it, preferably before it ever gets one made, but if it does get one done, you can send the other stalkers to kill it. Warpgate won't be done yet at this point for him.
Yea, obviously. Why the hell would I leave my stalkers in my base? They are the fastest unit in the matchup earlygame
So guess what other MU this makes super nice and easy? PvT! The fast 3 Stalkers are abusive for the same reasons in that MU. Now it obviously needs tweaking but its a safe way to to 2 Gate Robo expand.
This build is a great framework for aggro 2 gate robo's.
On February 13 2011 23:40 Sleight wrote: So guess what other MU this makes super nice and easy? PvT! The fast 3 Stalkers are abusive for the same reasons in that MU. Now it obviously needs tweaking but its a safe way to to 2 Gate Robo expand.
This build is a great framework for aggro 2 gate robo's.
2gate Robo was already the sort of gold standard for playing safely in PvT, nothing really changes here its just a different way of doing it.
On February 13 2011 23:40 Sleight wrote: So guess what other MU this makes super nice and easy? PvT! The fast 3 Stalkers are abusive for the same reasons in that MU. Now it obviously needs tweaking but its a safe way to to 2 Gate Robo expand.
This build is a great framework for aggro 2 gate robo's.
2gate Robo was already the sort of gold standard for playing safely in PvT, nothing really changes here its just a different way of doing it.
2gate Robo was already existent in PvP, this is just a different way of doing. HOW you do a thing is MORE IMPORTANT than WHAT you do, most of the time. Other 2 gate robo can't get 3 Stalker 1 Zealot and 1 Sentry nearly as fast, in any MU
On that note, I have been cutting the 3rd Gateway for an extra Zealot before Warpgates finish. As a result, my first warp in can be Zealot and Sentry, meaning 4 gates are even easier to hold.
BO is missing a pylon before robo, you build it in all your replays but when I first tried it after just reading the OP it the build seemed supply blocked for an unreasonable length of time because of that and the wording of the robo 3rd gate bullet made it seem intentional.
This is a quality guide. Times like these I wish there was a seperated section to have just purely guides on there for me to use as references. So hard to keep track of all the guides I've read(Liquipedia isn't enough). Great work Cecil, definitely will play around with this with my friends.
On February 14 2011 09:26 Jaeger wrote: BO is missing a pylon before robo, you build it in all your replays but when I first tried it after just reading the OP it the build seemed supply blocked for an unreasonable length of time because of that and the wording of the robo 3rd gate bullet made it seem intentional.
I usually build that pylon at 24 supply, after ordering your second stalker but before ordering the third.
nicely done! so it best to use this build only if u suspect a 4 gate? what if your opponent does a normal 2 gate or 3 gate robo? how behind will u be economically?
2 gate robo doesn't lose to 4gate just watch tylers stream. One gamble with it is that they teched to colossus faster though so there is still some rock paper scissors
This sounds awesome, the timing it seems has to be PERFECT or you are going to die to the 4gate. Well time to memorize the build :D thanks for posting.
On February 14 2011 10:52 da_head wrote: nicely done! so it best to use this build only if u suspect a 4 gate? what if your opponent does a normal 2 gate or 3 gate robo? how behind will u be economically?
I posted two replays earlier.
You aren't behind at all. You only cut probes for a couple seconds here and there to fit the minerals required into your build for the various buildings.
If your opponent does a normal 3gate robo, as in this game
you're perfectly capable of holding your own.
And if the opponent does do the 4gate, as in this game I played with a friend of mine
you're able to hold it.
The build transitions well into 1 base colossus, so thats usually what I do, but you could easily expand off it vs a 4gate.
On February 14 2011 10:52 da_head wrote: nicely done! so it best to use this build only if u suspect a 4 gate? what if your opponent does a normal 2 gate or 3 gate robo? how behind will u be economically?
I posted two replays earlier.
You aren't behind at all. You only cut probes for a couple seconds here and there to fit the minerals required into your build for the various buildings.
If your opponent does a normal 3gate robo, as in this game
you're perfectly capable of holding your own.
And if the opponent does do the 4gate, as in this game I played with a friend of mine
you're able to hold it.
The build transitions well into 1 base colossus, so thats usually what I do, but you could easily expand off it vs a 4gate.
Very very interesting...seems like i have a new standard build for pvp
I'm kind of concerned about a person who did zealot stalker stalker move out and proxy a pylon far away. Having chrono'd the core nonstop, they throw a round of units at the proxy pylon (that doesn't have to be close) and move in up the ramp while building a pylon. Since you don't have the sentry yet, you cant ff the ramp and the army is briefly larger than yours cause your warp gates hasnt finished.
It really is a perfect "standard" build to have in PvP. It has the flexibility of robo tech, giving you the observer should they not 4gate, but it has the resilience to survive 4gate with proper use of your early stalkers.
I've actually tried this build a couple of times only making 2 stalkers and getting the robo sooner.
it just doesn't work. Sometimes you can get lucky and find the probe coming to make the pylon, but 2 stalkers have a more difficult time not only finding the pylon in time (there are at least 3 great spots for proxy pylons on every map that I can think of off the top of my head) but 2 stalkers also sometimes can't get the pylon destroyed in time before he warps in units, where 3 stalkers can.
On February 14 2011 11:30 slained wrote: I'm kind of concerned about a person who did zealot stalker stalker move out and proxy a pylon far away. Having chrono'd the core nonstop, they throw a round of units at the proxy pylon (that doesn't have to be close) and move in up the ramp while building a pylon. Since you don't have the sentry yet, you cant ff the ramp and the army is briefly larger than yours cause your warp gates hasnt finished.
This exact situation happens in the second of the two games I posted above. He warps in his first round of units far away and escorts his probe up to make pylons closer denying my stalkers from killing anything.
3 stalkers at the top of the ramp can deny any proxy pylon close enough to warp up the ramp, you can just FF the ramp to prevent any units getting up while you snipe it. By the time that first FF wears off, you'll have your immortal out and hopefully another sentry.
given that you chronoboost a stalker the second the cybercore finishes I THINK a stalker would be out in time on all but the shortest maps.
Someone who is 4gating also generally does not go for a zealot first, if he does, it delays the core and by extension delays the 4gate. Getting a Zealot yourself in that situation to defend is no big deal as you will have more time to hold off the 4gate if it happens.
I'll try to get a replay of that happening at some point.
On February 14 2011 12:33 snow2.0 wrote: you will have to adjust this when the guy sends his first zealot at you.
No, you won't. You'll get a stalker out in time extremely easily on all maps that aren't retardedly tiny and small like Steppes of War.
On February 14 2011 11:30 slained wrote: I'm kind of concerned about a person who did zealot stalker stalker move out and proxy a pylon far away. Having chrono'd the core nonstop, they throw a round of units at the proxy pylon (that doesn't have to be close) and move in up the ramp while building a pylon. Since you don't have the sentry yet, you cant ff the ramp and the army is briefly larger than yours cause your warp gates hasnt finished.
Are you REQSlained that knows my friend nGsSoju? We can play around a bit sometime with the timings if like and see how zealot stalker stalker goes. As far as I know zealot stalker stalker will make it easier to set up the proxy pylon, but I'm wary of saying you can't get a sentry out in time.
I've been using a very similar build with slight nuances for a while (took quite a few losses learning the nuances), but the basic premise is the same w/ 3 stalkers to stop/delay the initial probe escort. It doesn't work well on maps where you can warp in from other places than the ramp (i.e. DQ) and it takes a lot of map awareness and common pylon placements. Plus you need good micro, know how to position your units on the ramp, etc.
That said it is a fun build. Often times failed 4-gates will turn into a contain, so I usually transition into blink stalkers since my army will be very stalker heavy. You'll have the probe and gas advantage so once blink finishes you can often just roll his army and win the game.
Excellent post, sir. I've been doing the AdelScott counter to 4 gate with success, but this is way better. I finally feel like I have the upper hand in PvP again. Fuck yeah, TL community!
Here's my take on this build or any build that attempts to "counter" the standard 4 gate. I don't think of builds as countering 4 gate but rather as how well they do vs all different things your opponent could do off of 1 gas and 3 chornoboosts saved up on their nexus. This opening looks exactly like a 4 gate, but in reality, I would say your opponent could do one of 3 types of things after your probe gets chased out by his stalker: 1. Standard 4 gate 2. Fast expand aka 1 gate fe 3. Gas after probe leaves and some type of tech build
Imo this is the true test of anti standard 4-gate builds vs "the standard 4 gate opener". Looking at your build, it looks fine vs a standard 4 gate. At my first glance, it seems fine vs a tech build as well. The only problem is vs a 1 gate fe. I'm theorcrafting here, but I don't think you can punish a 1 gate fe very well with this build.
The other problem is that you put down your 2nd gate before the enemy probe leaves your base, which is telegraphing to your opponent your opening.
I'm theorcrafting here, but I don't think you can punish a 1 gate fe very well with this build.
With proper scouting you should be able to transition into Colossus play and go for a timing push. I think! Since you're being so active with your first stalkers it should be obvious if he isn't going for a 4gate, hinting that he's either expanding or teching.
On February 14 2011 16:11 4kmonk wrote: Here's my take on this build or any build that attempts to "counter" the standard 4 gate. I don't think of builds as countering 4 gate but rather as how well they do vs all different things your opponent could do off of 1 gas and 3 chornoboosts saved up on their nexus. This opening looks exactly like a 4 gate, but in reality, I would say your opponent could do one of 3 types of things after your probe gets chased out by his stalker: 1. Standard 4 gate 2. Fast expand aka 1 gate fe 3. Gas after probe leaves and some type of tech build
Imo this is the true test of anti standard 4-gate builds vs "the standard 4 gate opener". Looking at your build, it looks fine vs a standard 4 gate. At my first glance, it seems fine vs a tech build as well. The only problem is vs a 1 gate fe. I'm theorcrafting here, but I don't think you can punish a 1 gate fe very well with this build.
The other problem is that you put down your 2nd gate before the enemy probe leaves your base, which is telegraphing to your opponent your opening.
Your stalkers give you map control if the opponent isn't 4gating, and there is no way he could hide a 1gate FE from you. At which you go 1base Colossus, I think, and take it from there. It is pretty difficult to beat 2 Colossi with 8-9 gateway units as support (which is what you have with 1base Colossus) without Colossi of your own.
Its an interesting idea though and I'd love to test it out.
Really fun and enjoyable having those early stalkers with something substantial to retreat upon =) Many thanks for the post, and the effort that went into copying the build seen in the VOD!
I'm very confident that 1 base collosi just straight up loses to 1 gate fe. In fact, if your opponent manages to get a 1 gate fe up, you're just behind unless you went 4 gate. The amount of gateway units you could get would way overwhelm any type of collosi timing push. You also have the options of voidrays or blink stalker base trade with your 2 base econ. If you think about it, the expansion will be up for about 6 minutes before any type of collosi push. If a 1 base collosi push can beat 6 minutes of additional income, then collosi are truly imbalanced.
Also, yes, your opponent probably won't be able to hide his 1 gate fe, but even if you scout it, you have no ability to punish it early, and if you don't you're behind. In fact the more I think about it, the more confident I am that 1 gate fe will crush this build. The strength of your attacking army peaks at when you have 3 stalkers and then as time goes on rapidly diminishes. The only thing that might prevent your opponent from 1 gate feing is the threat of a 4 gate from you.
Also, you don't necessarily have map control when doing this build. If you're unsure if your opponent is doing a 4 gate or 1 gate fe, you definitely should begin retreating your stalkers to your main around 5:10-5:20. I've had countless times doing a similar build where I've been flanked by warping in stalkers when i'm killing another pylon. Thus, you might truly have map control vs 1 gate fe but not perceived map control. Thus, imo you have to rely on a probe for scouting.
Wouldn't a 1gate FE be more than completely telegraphed well in advance of actually throwing down the robo? At this point you could just transition into an ordinary (albeit delayed) 4gate to take the game.
I don't think anyone is going to do a 1gate FE against a 4gate or even a 3gate and this is exactly what this build looks like until the robo goes down.
Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
On February 14 2011 17:40 Dhalphir wrote: Wouldn't a 1gate FE be more than completely telegraphed well in advance of actually throwing down the robo? At this point you could just transition into an ordinary (albeit delayed) 4gate to take the game.
I don't think anyone is going to do a 1gate FE against a 4gate or even a 3gate and this is exactly what this build looks like until the robo goes down.
Unless you spot the nexus or somehow get into his base after the stalker chases you out, there's no way to choose between robo or 2 additional games in time for this build. The robo timing for this build is around 4:50, usually way before you can get scouting information as to ascertain what build he's doing. Even if you can figure out he's 1 gate feing and thus cancel your robo and throw down 2 gates, he still has a slightly chance of holding you off because of your delayed gates.
The 2nd point I agree with though. Most people won't 1 gate fe after seeing that opening, but some people still will and then you'll be way behind. Another coin flip of pvp =/.
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote: Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
On February 14 2011 17:40 Dhalphir wrote: Wouldn't a 1gate FE be more than completely telegraphed well in advance of actually throwing down the robo? At this point you could just transition into an ordinary (albeit delayed) 4gate to take the game.
I don't think anyone is going to do a 1gate FE against a 4gate or even a 3gate and this is exactly what this build looks like until the robo goes down.
Unless you spot the nexus or somehow get into his base after the stalker chases you out, there's no way to choose between robo or 2 additional games in time for this build. The robo timing for this build is around 4:50, usually way before you can get scouting information as to ascertain what build he's doing. Even if you can figure out he's 1 gate feing and thus cancel your robo and throw down 2 gates, he still has a slightly chance of holding you off because of your delayed gates.
The 2nd point I agree with though. Most people won't 1 gate fe after seeing that opening, but some people still will and then you'll be way behind. Another coin flip of pvp =/.
I've never seen a 1 gate FE in PvP... are you sure you know what you're talking about??
In any case, I would think that a 1 gate FE would lose very easily to this 3 gate robo build.
For 1 gate fe which is blatantly obvious if you are somewhat present on the map with stalkers/probes you could just drop a twilight and keep producing stalkers. I usually crush that build with a bit of blink micro. (did this on x pos metal and he didn't have much of a chance.)
Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
From my experience a 3 gate blink build hits before the 1 gate fe production really starts to set in, but that could easily be my lowly masters opponents doing it incorrectly I guess. Got any games specifically I could look up? I've seen a fair amount of adelscott games but not a whole lot of 1 gate fe.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
I watched the replay and that guy made 3 key mistakes. First, he had a lack of scouting. He didn't know if you were counter expanding or all-ing him. Secondly, he didn't cut probes early enough. He went as far as 52 probes with 4 gas while you stayed on one base. Finally, he tried to beat a collosi all-in with collosi, something you never want to do from a 1 gate fe. You either want to: a. overwhelm with gateway units b. voidrays c. blink stalkers
I'm going to sleep now, but I'll play some games tomorrow and post some replays.
Also, it's pretty obvious scarecrow did not read this entire thread and is commenting out of context.
I watched the replay and that guy made 3 key mistakes. First, he had a lack of scouting. He didn't know if you were counter expanding or all-ing him. Secondly, he didn't cut probes early enough. He went as far as 52 probes with 4 gas while you stayed on one base. Finally, he tried to beat a collosi all-in with collosi, something you never want to do from a 1 gate fe. You either want to: a. overwhelm with gateway units b. voidrays c. blink stalkers
I'm going to sleep now, but I'll play some games tomorrow and post some replays.
Also, it's pretty obvious scarecrow did not read this entire thread and is commenting out of context.
If you do get some replays, make a thread dedicated to that build specifically. It would be interesting to see what you can come up with, I still think it's really exposed at certain timings and kind of relies on opponents not scouting/reacting correctly.
On February 14 2011 20:46 Dhalphir wrote: Yeah I'd be really interested to see what 1gate FE is like in a PvP, I was under the impression it was mostly a PvT strat.
I don't think a 1 gate FE in PvP will work if the other player just does a normal 4 Gate (assuming both players are same skill level).
Here's a replay of me going blink stalker against 1 gate fe into 5 gate with cannons on cross positions metalopolis. My blink micro is actually very bad in this game but I don't think I could have lost that even if I tried.
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote: Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote: Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g.
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote: Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g.
Just go out and test it against someone who knows how to k4g
On February 14 2011 20:46 Dhalphir wrote: Yeah I'd be really interested to see what 1gate FE is like in a PvP, I was under the impression it was mostly a PvT strat.
I don't think a 1 gate FE in PvP will work if the other player just does a normal 4 Gate (assuming both players are same skill level).
It's usually a 4gate FE (or atleast that's what I played around with). Instead of doing a round of stalker warp ins you expand instead. Obviously if you scout 4gate you don't expand and you warp in as you normally would, but if you scout anything other than 4gate you expand and pray. I tend to not like expand builds in pvp though, unless it's after blink stalker.
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote: Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g.
k4g requires a very specific response to counter, you would never use this build against a k4g - ever. If you're scouting early enough you will always be able to react and adapt.
Had some success with it @2800-2900 masters. But you really have to find this f*kin probe and kill it. Sniping the first zealot also means gg (most of the time). But there's a little timing window where your immortal is halfway done and you have only 1 sentry.
This is catching on fast because I faced this a few times in a row now while I did the same thing. What transition do you guys prefer in a mirror? Right now I skipped the immortal and went straight for Colossus and mass up an army to kill their expo if they did or secure my own.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
Put up or shut up, in other words.
1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
Put up or shut up, in other words.
1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up.
Would be nice to see some facts, not just you saying that it's "well-known". You might think it's true, it might be true, you might have seen the supporting evidence - we haven't, and it would be stupid to just trust a Random Guy From The Internet's opinion on it. If you have any proof that a well-done 1gate FE beats 3gate robo, then please, share it.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
Put up or shut up, in other words.
1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
Put up or shut up, in other words.
1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up.
You sir, are a troll... gtfo
Yeah, that's essentially what I said. I mean... that's just a classic case of argumentum ad populum. You can't possibly expect people to take your one-liner and think it's enough to form a stance on the 1gate expo vs 3gate robo problem.
On February 15 2011 00:24 Logros wrote: This is catching on fast because I faced this a few times in a row now while I did the same thing. What transition do you guys prefer in a mirror? Right now I skipped the immortal and went straight for Colossus and mass up an army to kill their expo if they did or secure my own.
I go for an expo and make collosi from my 1 robo but drop 2 stargates and start pumping voids. I try to hide my stargates + my voids as much as possible and keep my gateway/collosi army in the open so once our armies eventually clash he has too many collosi and not enough stalkers/his own voids to match me. I also chrono a warpprism after the obs and use the two to keep track of what he's doing + warp in his base if he moves out before I'm ready. Usually just warp in zealots and pick them up and run away when he responds and come back at a different spot or when he moves his stuff away again.
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote: Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g.
k4g beats almost any non-forge build if you don't scout it, it's just that k4g is easily scoutable (yes, even if you scout it last on 4-player maps). But that's not the point of this thread. You can literally say k4g beats 99% of protoss builds. That doesn't mean these builds are not viable. I've been doing a variation of this build on ladder probably for the past month or so and it works, you just have to be very aware of the timings and have good micro. Even so because of the early 2nd gate this build is still in pretty good shape even w/ late scouting.
On February 15 2011 02:48 Tachyon wrote: Does this hold off the SoJu 3 gate? (5 zealots and 8 stalkers @ 6:13 game time, 12/21/22 gates) If not, what could be tweaked to do so?
On February 14 2011 18:12 ScarFC wrote: Is it just me or will this build straight up die to a Korean 4 Warp rush? When scouted it can look like a normal 4 gate until you realize probes are pulled from gas / chrono is saved.
You scout korean 4 gate before committing to this build.
So what do you do? Imagine LT 6 and 9 positions so you scout him last. What is your reaction? You didnt even make a zealot, how will you hold it?
I agree that k4g probably owns this build but it owns a lot of conventional PvP builds so. The only thing you can do is drop 2 gates as soon as you see it, chrono out one stalker to kill the probe then get out zealots in time for his first warp in. Kind of seems to me like 10 gate builds are the only reliable answer to k4g.
k4g beats almost any non-forge build if you don't scout it, it's just that k4g is easily scoutable (yes, even if you scout it last on 4-player maps). But that's not the point of this thread. You can literally say k4g beats 99% of protoss builds. That doesn't mean these builds are not viable. I've been doing a variation of this build on ladder probably for the past month or so and it works, you just have to be very aware of the timings and have good micro. Even so because of the early 2nd gate this build is still in pretty good shape even w/ late scouting.
Disregard my post skyro is right of course. I wasn't thinking properly. I mean you'll be at 12 gate with 2 chrono's spent on probes, but otherwise there's as much room to react as with any other build.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
Put up or shut up, in other words.
1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up.
You sir, are a troll... gtfo
Yeah, that's essentially what I said. I mean... that's just a classic case of argumentum ad populum. You can't possibly expect people to take your one-liner and think it's enough to form a stance on the 1gate expo vs 3gate robo problem.
Tbh, I truly believed that "1 gate fe > 3 gate robo" was common knowledge before I saw this thread, but I guess I took that for granted. Anyways, here's a replay of me doing 1 gate fe vs a 3 gate robo push. Keep in mind that that I don't do this build often so it's not as refined as I would like it to be.
Notice that the build looks exactly like a 4 gate until when the probe leaves. It usually forces your opponent to do a build that can defend 4 gate, but in this case I told my opponent to do the fastest 3 gate robo build he could to simulate the worst conditions for me. The rest of the game is very similar to the game that cecil posted earlier of 1 gate fe vs 3 gate robo. The differences are that I scouted better and knew a collosi all-in was coming based on what I scouted. I then preceded to cut probes, put down another cannon, and pump all units. I did a lot of things wrong that game, but I still held it off. Here's some things I could have done better: 1. Refine the early stages of the build. The order of the forge/gateways/probes could be very much refined. I feel like I don't need that cannon as early as I put it down vs his build. 2. I forgot to transfer probes that game I think. 3. My cannon placement sucked and actually wasn't hitting his units for a while. 4. I could have targeted collosi better. 5. I need to find a timing to add my 5th and 6th gates during the attack. 6. I could have managed chornos better throughout the game.
Even with all these mistakes and minimal mistakes from my opponent, I was able to hold off the push with good scouting and probe cutting.
Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising.
I know you will get your first stalker out by the time a zealot arrives, but that zealot is going to do some serious damage to your econ while the 4 gater plants his proxy pylons.
And I'm also unclear how you could deal with a Soju 3 gate build. It's easy to transition out of 4 gate to 3 gate when you scout this build.
On February 14 2011 19:05 4kmonk wrote: Again, 1 gate fe > 3 gate robo. Blink stalkers does marginally better but I would still give the advantage to 1 gate fe. For some reference, look at some of adelscott's games. Often times, he goes an early expand build (although it's not 1 gate fe) while his opponent goes a tech build and he manages to win with sheer gateway unit numbers.
Also, yes, 1 gate fe is blatantly obvious, but it's not obvious until around 5:30-6:00 in the game at which point it's too late to do anything about.
quoting a game that is not 1gate FE is not exactly convincing evidence that 1gate FE works
Post a replay of 1gate FE beating a 3gate Robo to back up your claims. It doesn't have to be you playing but obviously if you know that 1gate FE beats all these builds then show the games where you saw it happen.
Put up or shut up, in other words.
1 gate FE beats 3 gate robo all day, this is well-known and doesn't need replays to back it up.
You sir, are a troll... gtfo
Yeah, that's essentially what I said. I mean... that's just a classic case of argumentum ad populum. You can't possibly expect people to take your one-liner and think it's enough to form a stance on the 1gate expo vs 3gate robo problem.
Tbh, I truly believed that "1 gate fe > 3 gate robo" was common knowledge before I saw this thread, but I guess I took that for granted. Anyways, here's a replay of me doing 1 gate fe vs a 3 gate robo push. Keep in mind that that I don't do this build often so it's not as refined as I would like it to be.
Notice that the build looks exactly like a 4 gate until when the probe leaves. It usually forces your opponent to do a build that can defend 4 gate, but in this case I told my opponent to do the fastest 3 gate robo build he could to simulate the worst conditions for me. The rest of the game is very similar to the game that cecil posted earlier of 1 gate fe vs 3 gate robo. The differences are that I scouted better and knew a collosi all-in was coming based on what I scouted. I then preceded to cut probes, put down another cannon, and pump all units. I did a lot of things wrong that game, but I still held it off. Here's some things I could have done better: 1. Refine the early stages of the build. The order of the forge/gateways/probes could be very much refined. I feel like I don't need that cannon as early as I put it down vs his build. 2. I forgot to transfer probes that game I think. 3. My cannon placement sucked and actually wasn't hitting his units for a while. 4. I could have targeted collosi better. 5. I need to find a timing to add my 5th and 6th gates during the attack. 6. I could have managed chornos better throughout the game.
Even with all these mistakes and minimal mistakes from my opponent, I was able to hold off the push with good scouting and probe cutting.
Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising.
You probably should play a lot of games and make a replay pack, as well as find as many high level games of this situation as you can, and then make your argument in your own thread. This thread is about the Korean 3 Stalker Robo build, not about whether or not a 3 Gate Robo can defeat a 1 Gate FE based off of a single replay. For all we know once you find out he fast expoed you can expo yourself, as you should have map control with your initial units in order to gain that information.
On February 15 2011 07:42 whoopadeedoo wrote: Also, what would happen if Toss steals your gas seeing that you didn't build that first zealot?
You can go for a normal 4 gate...?
Well, it'd be a 4 gate minus 1 zealot and one WG research CB (fwiw, I'm not convinced the timing would allow an efficient transition back to 4 gate .. you're probably going to be considerably behind ... gotta test). I guess this is offset somewhat by the 75 min used on the gas steal.
On February 15 2011 07:41 CecilSunkure wrote: You probably should play a lot of games and make a replay pack, as well as find as many high level games of this situation as you can, and then make your argument in your own thread. This thread is about the Korean 3 Stalker Robo build, not about whether or not a 3 Gate Robo can defeat a 1 Gate FE based off of a single replay. For all we know once you find out he fast expoed you can expo yourself, as you should have map control with your initial units in order to gain that information.
Yea, I agree with everything you said. Sorry for hijacking your thread, but if you look about 3 pages back I had a very good point about your build and for some reason, it got derailed into people doubting whether 1 gate fe can hold that 3 gate robo push.
... Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising.
I lost a in a tournament b/c i did k4wg, as soon as he knew he couldnt stop the pylon warp in he immediately boxed probes and continued with the above tactic. it worked, we base traded he build pylons around the map as did i but i could not do anything about stalkers kiting me. in the end.. stalkers > zlot
i guess "losing ur whole fucking base" is never a good idea but in this case.. if u get k4wg and u have 5-6 stalkers already at his main.. just proceed to trade and build pylons around the map, u will win in the end most likely
... Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising.
I lost a in a tournament b/c i did k4wg, as soon as he knew he couldnt stop the pylon warp in he immediately boxed probes and continued with the above tactic. it worked, we base traded he build pylons around the map as did i but i could not do anything about stalkers kiting me. in the end.. stalkers > zlot
i guess "losing ur whole fucking base" is never a good idea but in this case.. if u get k4wg and u have 5-6 stalkers already at his main.. just proceed to trade and build pylons around the map, u will win in the end most likely
I have been playing around with this build this evening on the ladder and so far, I like it. It's quite refreshing but still seems very viable. As you mentioned in the OP, I'm really interested in seeing what are the good transitions based on scouting in case the opponent is not aggressive because it's something I feel I was lacking tonight. Other than that, very good job and thank you for your guide
... Also, this is very off topic from the rest of my post, but I've seen a korean replay recently of a toss holding off korean 4 gate with only stalkers. He concept was to forget his base and go for a base trade with his opponent. He had about 4-5 stalkers and abandoned his own base with all his probes to go for the base trade. This relies on your opponent not getting any gas and thus only being able to make zealots. With your probes alive and his not mining, he was able to win by endlessly kiting probes and zealots. I haven't tested this, but it looks very promising.
I lost a in a tournament b/c i did k4wg, as soon as he knew he couldnt stop the pylon warp in he immediately boxed probes and continued with the above tactic. it worked, we base traded he build pylons around the map as did i but i could not do anything about stalkers kiting me. in the end.. stalkers > zlot
i guess "losing ur whole fucking base" is never a good idea but in this case.. if u get k4wg and u have 5-6 stalkers already at his main.. just proceed to trade and build pylons around the map, u will win in the end most likely
Please try and keep things on-topic? TT
This is actually somewhat on topic, as it can be a way for your build to stop a korean 4 gate if you scout him last on a 4 player map.
On February 15 2011 09:36 4kmonk wrote: This is actually somewhat on topic, as it can be a way for your build to stop a korean 4 gate if you scout him last on a 4 player map.
I dont' think it'd loose against it. Pretty sure that the whole point of this opening is to deny the close proxy pylon. Once that's removed, you'll have a sentry blocking the ramps right until your warp gates finish.
I watched all of your replays and not convinced that this build is a good choice... You cut probes too much for my liking but nice of you to spend your time uploading replays and posting here
Why would you go 3 gate's with a robo I wonder... 2 gate robo exactly fits what you can produce on 1 base so why bother to invest in a 3rd gate? It only messes up timings (the last gate will likely finish after WG tech) and means you have to cut probes alot more. Imo 2 gate robo builds are just strictly superior to 3 gate robo builds as there is no extra safety in that 3rd gate. It will simply result only in less units then more, unless for some reason you want to not make immortals at some point at which point you should consider why you went robo in the first place...
For the rest I think the build works fine but is highly dependant on how well your first few stalkers can keep off the proxy pylon. In some maps this is practically impossible as for example on steppes the proxy pylon behind the destructible rocks is just too hard to reach with your stalkers. A good 4 gate with a proxy somewhere midmap followed up by a proxy next to your ramp (for the 2nd wave) will still roll over this imo, the wg tech simply comes online too late imo.
On February 15 2011 11:41 Markwerf wrote: Why would you go 3 gate's with a robo I wonder... 2 gate robo exactly fits what you can produce on 1 base so why bother to invest in a 3rd gate? It only messes up timings (the last gate will likely finish after WG tech) and means you have to cut probes alot more. Imo 2 gate robo builds are just strictly superior to 3 gate robo builds as there is no extra safety in that 3rd gate. It will simply result only in less units then more, unless for some reason you want to not make immortals at some point at which point you should consider why you went robo in the first place...
For the rest I think the build works fine but is highly dependant on how well your first few stalkers can keep off the proxy pylon. In some maps this is practically impossible as for example on steppes the proxy pylon behind the destructible rocks is just too hard to reach with your stalkers. A good 4 gate with a proxy somewhere midmap followed up by a proxy next to your ramp (for the 2nd wave) will still roll over this imo, the wg tech simply comes online too late imo.
Against a persistent 4 gate, you need the 3rd gate to keep up. If he is smart, he tries to poke, you FF him and only get a Zealot, he's going to pull back, put a pylon immediately adjacent to your ramp, push up as it warps in, and try to break you. Having an extra gate is wonderful for preventing last 2nd all ins.
Very nice topic, I would add that Koreans most of the time scout with the probe after 12gate in PvP, makes things much smoother. YongHwa scouted after gate in that specific game too. Only difference is that you have to scout possible proxy locations first - on 2-player maps and even on 4-player map sometimes.
anyone have a refined build order? The one listed seems really clunky and my build just doesn't flow smoothly at all. I'm usually gas and mineral starved around the timing where you drop robo/gateway/sentry.
On February 16 2011 06:08 Zefa wrote: anyone have a refined build order? The one listed seems really clunky and my build just doesn't flow smoothly at all. I'm usually gas and mineral starved around the timing where you drop robo/gateway/sentry.
You're doing something wrong then. You can copy the build yourself from the VOD I linked in the OP. As far as I remember the small probe cuts are about 1/4-1/2 of a second long, and YongHwa does them himself.
This strategy is SOOO prevalent in PvP already, and everyone sucks ASS at it haha. Common mistakes I see are not splitting up stalkers, not going after the probe instead of zealot/stalker, and not having stalkers back at base while I'm warping in (allowing the proxy pylon close to base is a prerequite for that last one, in which case they already lost).
Very fun options against even the most brutal of 4 warpgates. You're barely behind on probes compared to other 2gate robo builds that DIE to 4 warpgate, but come out ahead in Robo vs. Robo wars (Faster robo, more probes).
Advantages: * 3 stalkers roving around, killing proxy pylon building probes and the initial zealot-stalker poke. Chrono boosted units give you a period before WG tech finishes where your army is king of the map. * If you scout your opponent taking his second gas before stalker pops, you can opt for a more economical version that delays the third gate for a pylon and continued probe production. I.E. not intentionally being 3 stalkers 20 probes supply capped at 26/26 if you know a 1gas 4wg isn't coming. * It's a robo build. You get options against common strats like 3gate blinkstalker and DT rush. * If your opponent FE's, you can FE yourself OR attack with 2-3 colossus and zealot-heavy. I would opt for expanding myself, but the preference is out there. I kinda like having the all-in to punish a poorly thought-out expansion up my sleeve to break out when my opponent's way too comfortable.
Props for the testing. I'm seeing a lot of variance in the robo then gateway then pylon in your replays (it took me a couple looks back at the post then the replays to realize you aren't doing the same thing), so I would highly recommend posting some more recent replays where you dependably execute the 3stalker + sentry + immortal (& 2 zealots) defense at the ramp. I might even post some of mine, though I haven't seen the killer 4wg lately on the ladder to have a replay of that. Just a lot of basic 2gate robo's and 3gate FE's.
I spent the last 2 hours doing this build in yabot and then some custom games.
The optimal version goes...
2x chrono on nexus 1x chrono on stalker + 1x chrono on cybercore 1x chrono on next stalker from 1st gateway 1x chrono on stalker from newly completely gateway (2nd gateway) 1x chrono on warp gate by the time robo finishes you almost be able to chronoboost twice if need be.
Ive tried it a ton of different ways, but when i do it this way my warpgates finish at ~5:40-5:45 because of the 2x boost. The final chrono on warpgate actually should wear off almost perfectly in time with when the upgrade finishes.
Also, I wouldnt assume your probe is going to die, it should almost never die before its relevant to the build. Instead, I found the best results with cutting probes at 20. This is the same time you add the second gas. If you do this, theres no possible supply block with your 3 stalkers, which are really the crux of the build. Additionally, with the minerals you save you will be at 100 as soon as you start the third stalker anyways so you can put down a pylon and start back up probe production sooner. Since this build seems geared towards stopping the 1 gas 20 probe 4 gate.. I would say its perfectly fine to stop at 20 probes for a little bit to ensure you get those stalkers out ASAP to find their probe and 'probe escorts' as i call them. The sooner you find them the more likely this build is to work.
I really like it, its very precise and with all variations my robo goes down at pretty much exactly the 5 minute mark. I dont think this build will work well for beginners as its much harder to pull off than the 4 gate itself simply because it requires good multi-tasking to get the build crisp.
I did this optimal version in practice against AI. You can see how nicely the chronoboosts fit given my above method. You can also see how i have minerals for for the pylon immediately when starting the 3rd stalker. Obviously in a real game you'll be microing around, but with enough hand speed and awareness this is about as good as it gets for timing imo. Please review it and let me know if I've missed anything cecil.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
you may be right, the issue is yonghwa scouted his opponent base and see 2nd gas and no zealot which means he realised it wouldnt be a 4 gate or at least not the offensiv one so past the 22 supply yonghwa plays it knowing it wont be offensiv 4 gate so it s cecil assuming what yonghwa would do to stop an hypothetic 4 gate as in the replay you see yonghwa going 22 pylone no asap immortal and especially a very late 3rd gate meaning this 3 rd gate is most likely yonghwa's response knowing it s likely there are an inc 3 gate blink
I spent the last 2 hours doing this build in yabot and then some custom games.
The optimal version goes...
2x chrono on nexus 1x chrono on stalker + 1x chrono on cybercore 1x chrono on next stalker from 1st gateway 1x chrono on stalker from newly completely gateway (2nd gateway) 1x chrono on warp gate by the time robo finishes you almost be able to chronoboost twice if need be.
Ive tried it a ton of different ways, but when i do it this way my warpgates finish at ~5:40-5:45 because of the 2x boost. The final chrono on warpgate actually should wear off almost perfectly in time with when the upgrade finishes.
Also, I wouldnt assume your probe is going to die, it should almost never die before its relevant to the build. Instead, I found the best results with cutting probes at 20. This is the same time you add the second gas. If you do this, theres no possible supply block with your 3 stalkers, which are really the crux of the build. Additionally, with the minerals you save you will be at 100 as soon as you start the third stalker anyways so you can put down a pylon and start back up probe production sooner. Since this build seems geared towards stopping the 1 gas 20 probe 4 gate.. I would say its perfectly fine to stop at 20 probes for a little bit to ensure you get those stalkers out ASAP to find their probe and 'probe escorts' as i call them. The sooner you find them the more likely this build is to work.
I really like it, its very precise and with all variations my robo goes down at pretty much exactly the 5 minute mark. I dont think this build will work well for beginners as its much harder to pull off than the 4 gate itself simply because it requires good multi-tasking to get the build crisp.
I did this optimal version in practice against AI. You can see how nicely the chronoboosts fit given my above method. You can also see how i have minerals for for the pylon immediately when starting the 3rd stalker. Obviously in a real game you'll be microing around, but with enough hand speed and awareness this is about as good as it gets for timing imo. Please review it and let me know if I've missed anything cecil.
Yeah I worked out the timings of this and come to very similar conclusions on chrono use, only difference is I don't chrono out the 2nd stalker since my 3rd stalker is started slightly after my 2nd, so I chrono my 3rd to have them both pop out at the same time. I don't find a need for an earlier 2nd since I use all 3 stalkers to harass the probe escort (my first stalker is used to check for proxies while waiting on the 2nd and 3rd).
People should realize that there's nothing really strange about the opening. It is simply an optimized build that gets out 3 stalkers ASAP to harass a probe escort. Anybody who was formulating a build to achieve this (optimized 3 stalker build w/o probe cuts) would have arrived at a very similar build order. That's how I figured it out months ago and have been using it ever since.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
It all depends on the situation. A 3 stalker opening is more flexible and safer since you have early map control and can confirm if they are in fact 4-gating or not much earlier and then react accordingly.
It's true there are some risks involved to intercept the probe escort, but it can be minimized to a great extent if you know what you're doing. I warp my sentry after my 3 stalkers in at my base and keep it there, and there should be no reason your stalkers miss the escort, so even if they do warp in units at a proxy you missed somewhere you have the sentry to stall and now his forces are split up. I would not say you are in a disadvantaged position in this scenario. Certainly there will be some growing pains involved learning such a read and react type of playstyle, but it is what ultimately makes good players good, rather than a 'sit back and hope he attacks you' playstyle.
And the whole max production capacity thing off X bases is much more applicable to a macro-oriented playstyle, not early pressure situation like it is in a 4-gate situation. I don't know how many times I've won by holding a 4-gate w/ 3-gates, being contained so I made a robo for a warp prism + a 4th gate, then just warped in 2 rounds of zealots in his base and GG right there. I had 4 gates and a robo in that scenario, so what? It is correct response. Warp Gates have a huge advantage in being able to be much more aggressive while robo play is more suited for a defensive, macro-style play.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
2 Gates and Robo has an accumulation of resources, and is just plain less flexible than 3. I don't care about discussing the kcdc thread in this thread. This build doesn't rely on killing the scout probe, like I said in the OP, it relies on forcing the proxy a good distance from your ramp. This is entirely possible and easy if you have three stalkers and he has a stalker and a zeal. People like you posting make me hate this entire forum. How about you actually go test the build out and use some replays to back up your claims. Or better yet, go watch the GSL and find a match that supports your claims. Saying IMYongHwa did something and so it therefor must be good for some reason, is much better than listening to a guy ramble in the SC2 Strategy forum of TL.
CecilSunkure is amazingly awesome and this build does seem to work very well vs zealot/stalker/probe, but how can you deal with a player who just hides his scouting probe somewhere to make a pylon instead of escorting it with the first zealot and stalker? Especially on larger maps.
On February 17 2011 10:56 iamke55 wrote: CecilSunkure is amazingly awesome and this build does seem to work very well vs zealot/stalker/probe, but how can you deal with a player who just hides his scouting probe somewhere to make a pylon instead of escorting it with the first zealot and stalker? Especially on larger maps.
At the moment the only answer I know of is to focus on getting a proxy pylon to be as far away from your ramp as possible. Think of using your stalkers as a way to achieve a priority list, with the list being this:
Force opponent's forward pylon back as far as possible
Kill off the enemy initial Zealot + Stalker or Probe
Kill off enemy forward Pylon
So if you do this instead of focusing on killing the probe you can absolutely survive. Them getting a pylon and 4 Gateing you isn't a problem, as you'll win as long as you have enough of a delay between their warpins and them running up your ramp due to your higher tier tech units. In this regard you want them to 4 Gate you as it will give you an advantage. The point I'm making is that you shouldn't think about killing off their proxy so much as giving yourself enough time to get a formidable force out and crush the 4 Gate.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
2 Gates and Robo has an accumulation of resources, and is just plain less flexible than 3. I don't care about discussing the kcdc thread in this thread. This build doesn't rely on killing the scout probe, like I said in the OP, it relies on forcing the proxy a good distance from your ramp. This is entirely possible and easy if you have three stalkers and he has a stalker and a zeal. People like you posting make me hate this entire forum. How about you actually go test the build out and use some replays to back up your claims. Or better yet, go watch the GSL and find a match that supports your claims. Saying IMYongHwa did something and so it therefor must be good for some reason, is much better than listening to a guy ramble in the SC2 Strategy forum of TL.
ugh you're just an idiot. 2 gates robo only has a tiny accumulation on a fully saturated base when you're not making pylons or probes. That situation is extremely rare though as you are either not nearly close to being saturated, when fighting off a 4 gate for example, or you are making pylons building up for some attack etc. Either way why should I listen to someone who takes 1 VOD off a game that doesnt include a 4 gate at all and then tries to conclude the same build is good against 4 gates as well and needs 3 gates... It is just retarded and your comment about you hating the forums because of me is mutual. Your suggestions in other topics have consistently been poor so no need for me to even bother with you.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
2 Gates and Robo has an accumulation of resources, and is just plain less flexible than 3. I don't care about discussing the kcdc thread in this thread. This build doesn't rely on killing the scout probe, like I said in the OP, it relies on forcing the proxy a good distance from your ramp. This is entirely possible and easy if you have three stalkers and he has a stalker and a zeal. People like you posting make me hate this entire forum. How about you actually go test the build out and use some replays to back up your claims. Or better yet, go watch the GSL and find a match that supports your claims. Saying IMYongHwa did something and so it therefor must be good for some reason, is much better than listening to a guy ramble in the SC2 Strategy forum of TL.
Either way why should I listen to someone who takes 1 VOD off a game that doesnt include a 4 gate at all and then tries to conclude the same build is good against 4 gates as well and needs 3 gates...
Because on the Korean server PvP is almost pure 4 Gate. So why would a top of the world Korean open with something other than 4 Gate on Lost Temple if it would die to the most common PvP build out there.
Maybe you should spend less time hating and actually testing the build. If you've tested it and have replays then post it and you can be constructive, but as is you're just flaming me and being a troll without actually contributing anything to it.
And obviously there's no need to waste your time with me. But you still do it by reading and posting in this thread. It's not like I forced you to read this.
Well I agree that 2 gate robo builds can hold off a 4 gate. Either by moving the proxy pylon as far back as possible with some early stalkers or just by getting the robo and then immortals really quickly.
This doesn't automatically mean 3 gates is needed though or even better. IMYonghwha realised there was no quick 4 gate coming so he most likely he already deviated from his build from that point onwards. 3 gates can be useful in other situations, for example when you don't actually have the intention to make non stop units but do want to be able to respond or when you don't want to make immortals (for perhaps a fear of a stargate build). Against a straight 4 gate 2 gate robo will just be strictly better then 3 gate robo though, you simply have 150 more in units as 2 gate robo WILL be producing a bit faster then a 20-24 probe economy will gather. That's all I wanted to say.
On February 17 2011 10:56 iamke55 wrote: CecilSunkure is amazingly awesome and this build does seem to work very well vs zealot/stalker/probe, but how can you deal with a player who just hides his scouting probe somewhere to make a pylon instead of escorting it with the first zealot and stalker? Especially on larger maps.
Try to think like them. if you were 4gating, where would you hide the pylon? And where is good nearby spots for a proxy?
Most maps only have 3-4 spots that are actually close enough for a proxy pylon to be dangerous, and 3 stalkers can keep them covered easily. In testing this build with a friend I found that if the reinforcement time for the newly warped in units from the 4gating player was any less than 5 seconds, I could still die to the 4gate even given perfect execution, but if I could force the pylon to be in a place with a longer reinforce time I would generally be ok.
Forcing the pylon can be done either by killing the probe and denying it completely, killing a nearby pylon, or even just be keeping your stalkers patrolling the potential close pylon spots so that he puts one further away to be safe.
Thanks Cecil and Dhalphir for the explanations. It all makes more sense now, I was just confused since all of the replays showed you either sniping the probe or the pylon. I just beat someone doing kcdc's build with this as he won't have enough ranged units to defend well against the 3 stalker poke, and my faster gas let me win the colossus war.
On February 17 2011 13:41 iamke55 wrote: Thanks Cecil and Dhalphir for the explanations. It all makes more sense now, I was just confused since all of the replays showed you either sniping the probe or the pylon. I just beat someone doing kcdc's build with this as he won't have enough ranged units to defend well against the 3 stalker poke, and my faster gas let me win the colossus war.
On February 17 2011 13:41 iamke55 wrote: Thanks Cecil and Dhalphir for the explanations. It all makes more sense now, I was just confused since all of the replays showed you either sniping the probe or the pylon. I just beat someone doing kcdc's build with this as he won't have enough ranged units to defend well against the 3 stalker poke, and my faster gas let me win the colossus war.
I was gonna mention that as a sideffect this build should do well against the KCDC opener due to its zealot heavy nature.
I would ignore Markwerf he's kind of notorious for posting on every protoss build thread and saying it won't work or posting on every XvP build and telling people that his protoss build can beat it and here's why. It gets old fast and its not really contributing in any way.
Looks like Artosis fully converted...thanks for the VoD will watch later... now stop compaigning against protoss
So 2 gates, chronoboost out 3 stalkers, then fake push, then robot, gates, and pylon, then sentry and immortals right ? That's all, why they have so complicated build order lol
On February 17 2011 14:05 hitman133 wrote: So 2 gates, chronoboost out 3 stalkers, then fake push, then robot, gates, and pylon, then sentry and immortals right ? That's all, why they have so complicated build order lol
Because when learning a new build its good to have a gameplan to follow so you can execute it crisply rather than just throwing it down any which way. The use to which you put those three stalkers is also important too so needs some explanation.
On February 17 2011 14:05 hitman133 wrote: So 2 gates, chronoboost out 3 stalkers, then fake push, then robot, gates, and pylon, then sentry and immortals right ? That's all, why they have so complicated build order lol
Because there's only a single optimal way to do it.
Edit: A single optimal way for the goal of stopping a 4 gate**
Edit; Also, it's not a fake push. Read the OP carefully to understand better.
This works incredibly well if you execute it properly.
Literally just had a high masters protoss come 4 gate me and push with zeal/stalk/probe, dropped the probe/zealot with 3 stalkers and just made 2 sentries. eventually when my first collo came out (had to make immortal first cause he attempted to push up ramp) I got the gg.
VERY happy to see this! Some real PvP may happen now!
Cecil you just made me play P again :D I hate 4gates xD Will probably lose the first couple of games trying to refine this build and set the priorities. Better to start practicing this in customs then.
Anyways I have seen what it can do. But I haven't read anywhere what it's weak against. Have you faced any strategies that has absolutely crushed this strategy most of the times?
Can't really test the strategy but when I do get ingame I'll be doing this first priority to test out lol.
Great build! Hopefully this will change the meta-game on the NA server once enough 4gate players get stuffed by it. Late-game Colossi wars aren't much better, but one step at a time!
Once second Gateway finishes chrono a stalker out of it**
After your third Stalker is ordered place a Robo as fast as you can followed by a gateway and then a pylon. Directly after this order a Sentry and spend one Chronoboost on it.
**In order to get this Stalker out in time you have to have exactly 24/26 supply. If you constantly make probes you'll end up with 25/26 unless your initial scout probe dies. If your first scout probe doesn't die you HAVE to stop probe production (until the next pylon finishes) to get your third stalker out as fast as possible!
Your sentry should finish just as Warpgate tech finishes, and your robo should finish shortly thereafter. Morph both gateways into warpgates, and warp in two zealots. Ideally you'll be up your ramp with three stalkers two zealots and a sentry, with a double chrono immortal about to pop, with the third gateway just finishing.
Note: Every single stalker has one chronoboost, the sentry has one chronoboost, and the immortal has two chronoboost. Only two initial chronoboosts are spent on the Nexus.
3 Stalkers This build revolves around your three initial stalkers. These stalkers are what are going to keep you alive against a good 4 gate rush. You use them to kill off the Zealot Stalker and Probe (if you can) and then snipe the proxy pylon. Your goal in using these three stalkers is to force your opponent to proxy their warpin pylon as far away as possible. With good micro it is entirely possible to kill off their stalker, zealot and probe then return to your base. I've been able to win with this build as long as I can get the proxy pylon a good distance away from my base.
In order for this build to work you have to be able to be very active with your first three stalkers.
I like this--getting 3 quick stalkers is really strong for early map control in PvP, and it can make it very difficult for a 4 gater to get his all-important proxy pylon. It's not a slam dunk that you'll be able to deny the proxy on all maps tho. On a map like LT, you can take keep the watch tower outside your base and you can know 100% that there isn't a proxy nearby. On XNC (commonly considered the best map in the ladder pool), the circular layout of the map along with the backdoor behind the grass allows a greater possibility that he'll sneak a probe somewhere that your stalkers are not. It's quick to warp in a pylon, and you can't be everywhere at once. Obviously, as soon as he warps in his round of stalkers, you'll have lost map control. And with this build, if you don't delay the push, I don't think you'll have enough units in time to hold your ramp.
The other concern is that you don't have an early zealot, so on small maps and close positions, your opponent can chrono out a zealot and cause some mayhem in your mineral line. With great probe micro, a zealot can't kill anything, but you'll be surprised how long the zealot will stay alive against a stalker. Just something to be aware of if you're not confident in your ability to pull individual probes away from a zealot in your mineral line. It's not easy.
Lastly, why chronoboost after pylon for a 12 gate? The chronoboost is 10 seconds of production, and the sped up production forces you to cut production to get the gateway on 12. If you save that chrono, the 12 gate lines up perfectly with your minerals. I believe using a chrono before a 12 gate menas you've wasted 5-8 of the 10 seconds.
Once second Gateway finishes chrono a stalker out of it**
After your third Stalker is ordered place a Robo as fast as you can followed by a gateway and then a pylon. Directly after this order a Sentry and spend one Chronoboost on it.
**In order to get this Stalker out in time you have to have exactly 24/26 supply. If you constantly make probes you'll end up with 25/26 unless your initial scout probe dies. If your first scout probe doesn't die you HAVE to stop probe production (until the next pylon finishes) to get your third stalker out as fast as possible!
Your sentry should finish just as Warpgate tech finishes, and your robo should finish shortly thereafter. Morph both gateways into warpgates, and warp in two zealots. Ideally you'll be up your ramp with three stalkers two zealots and a sentry, with a double chrono immortal about to pop, with the third gateway just finishing.
Note: Every single stalker has one chronoboost, the sentry has one chronoboost, and the immortal has two chronoboost. Only two initial chronoboosts are spent on the Nexus.
3 Stalkers This build revolves around your three initial stalkers. These stalkers are what are going to keep you alive against a good 4 gate rush. You use them to kill off the Zealot Stalker and Probe (if you can) and then snipe the proxy pylon. Your goal in using these three stalkers is to force your opponent to proxy their warpin pylon as far away as possible. With good micro it is entirely possible to kill off their stalker, zealot and probe then return to your base. I've been able to win with this build as long as I can get the proxy pylon a good distance away from my base.
In order for this build to work you have to be able to be very active with your first three stalkers.
Lastly, why chronoboost after pylon for a 12 gate? The chronoboost is 10 seconds of production, and the sped up production forces you to cut production to get the gateway on 12. If you save that chrono, the 12 gate lines up perfectly with your minerals. I believe using a chrono before a 12 gate menas you've wasted 5-8 of the 10 seconds.
IIRC YongHwa chronoboosted the same way I did in my replays. Also Day9 said in one of his dailies that he thinks (i.e. doesn't know) that 12 Gateway with this chronoboost scheme is superior to other schemes. The probe cut is particularly tiny, and no chronoboost is wasted. I'm assuming that getting the probe out slightly earlier with a tiny cut allows your earlier probes to return minerals for a greater amount of time, thus out-paying the tiny cut. I don't have time to actually test this out right now, but I would appreciate it if someone did test out openings and minerals mined -perhaps create a new thread once results are created?
Once second Gateway finishes chrono a stalker out of it**
After your third Stalker is ordered place a Robo as fast as you can followed by a gateway and then a pylon. Directly after this order a Sentry and spend one Chronoboost on it.
**In order to get this Stalker out in time you have to have exactly 24/26 supply. If you constantly make probes you'll end up with 25/26 unless your initial scout probe dies. If your first scout probe doesn't die you HAVE to stop probe production (until the next pylon finishes) to get your third stalker out as fast as possible!
Your sentry should finish just as Warpgate tech finishes, and your robo should finish shortly thereafter. Morph both gateways into warpgates, and warp in two zealots. Ideally you'll be up your ramp with three stalkers two zealots and a sentry, with a double chrono immortal about to pop, with the third gateway just finishing.
Note: Every single stalker has one chronoboost, the sentry has one chronoboost, and the immortal has two chronoboost. Only two initial chronoboosts are spent on the Nexus.
3 Stalkers This build revolves around your three initial stalkers. These stalkers are what are going to keep you alive against a good 4 gate rush. You use them to kill off the Zealot Stalker and Probe (if you can) and then snipe the proxy pylon. Your goal in using these three stalkers is to force your opponent to proxy their warpin pylon as far away as possible. With good micro it is entirely possible to kill off their stalker, zealot and probe then return to your base. I've been able to win with this build as long as I can get the proxy pylon a good distance away from my base.
In order for this build to work you have to be able to be very active with your first three stalkers.
Lastly, why chronoboost after pylon for a 12 gate? The chronoboost is 10 seconds of production, and the sped up production forces you to cut production to get the gateway on 12. If you save that chrono, the 12 gate lines up perfectly with your minerals. I believe using a chrono before a 12 gate menas you've wasted 5-8 of the 10 seconds.
IIRC YongHwa chronoboosted the same way I did in my replays. Also Day9 said in one of his dailies that he thinks (i.e. doesn't know) that 12 Gateway with this chronoboost scheme is superior to other schemes. The probe cut is particularly tiny, and no chronoboost is wasted. I'm assuming that getting the probe out slightly earlier with a tiny cut allows your earlier probes to return minerals for a greater amount of time, thus out-paying the tiny cut. I don't have time to actually test this out right now, but I would appreciate it if someone did test out openings and minerals mined -perhaps create a new thread once results are created?
It might be. After a 12 gate, you can only spend 1 chrono on nexus if you want to have enough minerals for your core right when your gate finishes (I believe there's still a tiny production cut with 1 chrono spent), so even if ~6 of the 10 seconds of the chrono at 10 food are wasted, it's not clear that there's a better spot to spend that 25 energy. I am pretty sure that the chrono on 10 for a 12 gate wastes a significant portion of the production boost, but it's possible that it's the least wasteful option.
Updated OP and added a livestream link. I know some people were curious as to how to derive build orders from VODs like I did in this thread. + Show Spoiler +
Interested in finding builds on your own? Don't know exactly how to learn from better players like I did in this post? I just happened to be streaming and recorded the entire creation of this build order! Check it out here: http://bit.ly/gpH3wS
I'm questioning why you need the 3rd gate if you drop the robo. It seems to me you want to go for that 3rd gate OR the robo, but not both, at least initially as you can hold a 4-gate with 3-gate (more sentries) or with 2-gate robo (more brute force w/ Immortals). Money is very tight already producing out of robo + 2 gates so do you just cut probes completely so you can produce out of these 4 structures? I don't feel it is necessary to cut much probe production after the initial 3 stalkers (at least w/ 3-gate, haven't gotten enough practice w/ this 2-gate robo variant).
On February 18 2011 04:46 Skyro wrote: I'm questioning why you need the 3rd gate if you drop the robo. It seems to me you want to go for that 3rd gate OR the robo, but not both, at least initially as you can hold a 4-gate with 3-gate (more sentries) or with 2-gate robo (more brute force w/ Immortals). Money is very tight already producing out of robo + 2 gates so do you just cut probes completely so you can produce out of these 4 structures? I don't feel it is necessary to cut much probe production after the initial 3 stalkers (at least w/ 3-gate, haven't gotten enough practice w/ this 2-gate robo variant).
The Robo is so that you can rapidly transition into 1base Colossus to end the game. That's how I use it. It also prevents the opponent quickly swapping to 4gate blink stalker, if he sees the immortals, especially more than one, he's less likely to do it.
the third gate is because 1base colossus doesn't leave enough cash leftover to expand so you might as well use that extra cash to warp in a couple more gateway units.
Damn, now less people will try to 4 gate me, unfortunate. I've been doing this exact build for a month now, I never loss to 4 gate since then, it's the safest opening in PvP, in my opinion.
On February 18 2011 20:33 Roflhaxx wrote: "12 Gateway Slight probe cut Resume Probe production; Chrono Nexus" I dont understand this part, why would I want to cut probes AFTER my gateway?
if you 12 gate you will always have to cut probes for a couple seconds because you just won't have the 50 minerals in time after throwing down the 12 gate.
Its a slight tradeoff to get the gateway slightly earlier.
ok, i just realized you don't want to ever move out with just the first two stalkers, move out when you have 3. Even if you fail to kill the pylon, you can still win vs 4gate with this build just because the immortal is so much faster doing 2gate robo instead of 3. You only "need" to forcefield once before it's out.
Weird though, I think this is going to be big news for the pvp metagame. The days of 4-gate are over!
On February 19 2011 14:43 GhostLink wrote: question, what if ur opponent does the same thing, do u get expo, colossus or voidrays?
Micro super well! I honestly am not sure. Like the OP says the build is super new so the best reactions aren't very well known. Knowing that the opening is a mirror (literally) it will come down to execution speed and micro. Once the stalkers clash you can go for quick colossus or deviate from robotics. I suggest sticking with constant chrono on colossus, expanding whenever you think you can get away with it. Hope that helps, but I honestly can't tell you much more without playing more games.
On February 18 2011 03:50 CecilSunkure wrote: IIRC YongHwa chronoboosted the same way I did in my replays. Also Day9 said in one of his dailies that he thinks (i.e. doesn't know) that 12 Gateway with this chronoboost scheme is superior to other schemes. The probe cut is particularly tiny, and no chronoboost is wasted. I'm assuming that getting the probe out slightly earlier with a tiny cut allows your earlier probes to return minerals for a greater amount of time, thus out-paying the tiny cut. I don't have time to actually test this out right now, but I would appreciate it if someone did test out openings and minerals mined -perhaps create a new thread once results are created?
A long time ago I tried to quantitatively evaluate the various pylon/gate timings that I considered "common" openings at the time, here.
kcdc's idea, which if I understand it correctly is just a 9pylon/12gate without a chrono at 10, generates the following result (modified the test a bit, so I'll re-test "normal" 9/12 too):
Both tests were undertaken on Steppes of War, with the top spawn. No split micro was attempted beyond sending probes to a patch that wouldn't result in one of them going behind the mineral line. Insofar as it was within my power, I tried to avoid creating minor differences with probe rallies and when I pulled them off the line to build.
The precise order executed was:
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 16 Pylon 16 Core
Probes were transferred to gas nearly perfectly, and scouting was done at 9 for both.
The results, as far as I can tell, suggest that either I am so terrible that I can't cleanly execute a build at slowest game speed or that the 10-chrono variant might give you 4 extra gas. Beyond that, every difference is so small as to be explained by variance in probe AI decisions, my build timing, and whatnot.
i dont play protoss but i love this scout heavy, somewhat aggressive playstyle, it's why i play zerg.
I was watching my friend play protoss earlier and i couldn't handle how you just couldn't scout in some situations, i felt he had no "control" of the game. he admits losing to horrible players consistently as well, which i feel stems from the lack of ability to scout effectively.
On February 20 2011 01:02 HeavOnEarth wrote: i dont play protoss but i love this scout heavy, somewhat aggressive playstyle, it's why i play zerg.
I was watching my friend play protoss earlier and i couldn't handle how you just couldn't scout in some situations, i felt he had no "control" of the game. he admits losing to horrible players consistently as well, which i feel stems from the lack of ability to scout effectively.
Ehh... scouting as protoss really isn't that hard. But, you also just have to use the information you have and make inferences like against a zerg. Do his lings have speed? They don't? He must be going quick roach if it's early game. You have to remember what you saw with your initial scout and such, and also try and make probe run by's as much as possible against zerg. Vs terran you can poke the front and bring his units up to his ramp to see what he's got and once again make inferences until you get the observer out. This is all just pre observer. Anyways, that's kind of off topic.
I've noticed a lot of people using this build on the ladder recently at the 2800 master level. Ever since the 4 gate has been put on the back burner, this matchup has felt strange to me. No longer is there a very strict build order that I adhere to because you have to feel your opponent out a lot more than you normally had to now that not everyone is 4gating. This matchup was tricky with the 4gate in play but now with the 4gate dieing off, it's even more tricky. It's such a mind game.
I think this kind of build is really how PvP is going to be played for the most part. It doesn't necessarily have to be this exact 3 stalker pressure build, but I think an early 2nd gate + early map control and pressure is the way to do it. You can pretty much go into whatever tech you want from there, and that's what I've found myself doing recently. I put on the early pressure with an early 2nd gate as my warp gate researches and throw down 2nd gas while I have map control. Then, I either go robo or strargate from there. I've been leanin more towards stargate because its more fun, and it can also really punish the robo tech.
So yeah, I think people get caught up in executing some exact build too often rather than getting the general idea of the build (early pressure) and going from there. It's not like you need exactly 3 stalkers to prevent the proxy. 2z1s works as well. Try and get yourself out of the mindset of following exact builds. Makes the game more interesting and open.
some questions i had at least: - I am not sure, weither to search for proxy or push with that stalkers. cant u deal a big amount of dmg to a 4 gater on maps like sow? - when to scout on bigger maps? 9 or 12
On February 20 2011 03:58 TomTomTom.965 wrote: really nice and great work!
some questions i had at least: - I am not sure, weither to search for proxy or push with that stalkers. cant u deal a big amount of dmg to a 4 gater on maps like sow? - when to scout on bigger maps? 9 or 12
Your main goal is definitely going to be to prevent a proxy from being placed near you. If you see no sign of movement around the map by a certain time you need to press up the ramp and see what he's doing. Just a small poke with one stalker is good in case he has sentries. I do this every time I play this matchup now and I don't sense a 4 Gate coming my way.
Scouting on 9 or 12 is a matter of preference. I recommend scouting on 9, as I favor playing a very safe style, and feel that the 9 scout caters to my preferred play. Also if you're interested in improving quickly the best builds to use are ones that get you as much information as possible (i.e. obs builds or aggressive builds) like this one!
On February 20 2011 10:55 Zefa wrote: I love when protoss open 3 stalker build vs my 4 gate open. Its so exploitable. I always enter mid game ahead and haven't lost vs this build yet.
instead of bragging about your 4gate (lmao), maybie you should be a part of the discussion and actually tell us why you enter midgame ahead and how you exploit this build? a replay or two that show how you exploit a decent player who executes this build well would also help.
U open with a what seems to be 4 gate build and once their probe is gone, instead of 4 gating u just take ur 2nd gas and tech up. U can get a robo immediately or get 2 more gates or w/e u want. Meanwhile the 3 stalker build player will waste investment on an immortal anticipating on whats coming. I usually move around the map with my 3 stalkers as well to keep up the illusion that I may still be 4 gating and they generally do always go robo immortal.
The 3 stalker build is great for stopping 4 gates or forcing builds away from 4 gate but its one weakness is that it exposes itself for this build really early to the opponent and a smart reaction from the opponent will let them enter the midgame ahead in scouting info and possibly econ/tech.
Here's one I just played. I dunno how optimal my response to 3 stalker open is, maybe going stargate is better. My opponent scouts me and prepares for a 4 gate that will never come.
EDIT: Ok maybe my opponent didn't play that great and my response to seeing a 3 stalker open wasn't optimal but I think you get the jist of what I'm trying to say. Scouting 3 stalker open leaves you a lot of various options while the 3 stalker build is pretty much playing blind til 6-7 min mark and is left with a tough choice of getting the immortal or not. Opening 4 gate and seeing a 3 stalker open just gives you a huge information advantage and no disadvatage at the time of scouting so this seems really exploitable to me.
Kumi's 3500 masters. I lose both games basically because of ill-advised attacks for the most part. Blink rush kind of blind countered me, but I think the example where we both went robo might look very common to protoss players in the near future. We didnt really talk about the builds before our game so it was funny that we both did this opener in our first game.
On February 20 2011 18:58 Zefa wrote: U open with a what seems to be 4 gate build and once their probe is gone, instead of 4 gating u just take ur 2nd gas and tech up. U can get a robo immediately or get 2 more gates or w/e u want. Meanwhile the 3 stalker build player will waste investment on an immortal anticipating on whats coming. I usually move around the map with my 3 stalkers as well to keep up the illusion that I may still be 4 gating and they generally do always go robo immortal.
The 3 stalker build is great for stopping 4 gates or forcing builds away from 4 gate but its one weakness is that it exposes itself for this build really early to the opponent and a smart reaction from the opponent will let them enter the midgame ahead in scouting info and possibly econ/tech.
Here's one I just played. I dunno how optimal my response to 3 stalker open is, maybe going stargate is better. My opponent scouts me and prepares for a 4 gate that will never come.
EDIT: Ok maybe my opponent didn't play that great and my response to seeing a 3 stalker open wasn't optimal but I think you get the jist of what I'm trying to say. Scouting 3 stalker open leaves you a lot of various options while the 3 stalker build is pretty much playing blind til 6-7 min mark and is left with a tough choice of getting the immortal or not. Opening 4 gate and seeing a 3 stalker open just gives you a huge information advantage and no disadvatage at the time of scouting so this seems really exploitable to me.
Thanks for the replay.
The game looked really even to me. He shouldn't have attacked and im not sure why he completely stopped probe production so early. Also his immortal was completely unmicro'd and shooting only zealots, which didnt help his cause. His Bay was only a few seconds behind yours though. If anything your replay is a good example of how you wont be far behind, if at all, if you open this way and go straight for robo.
I think if he hadn't attacked it was so even it could have been anyones game.
I've read the whole thread, and I didn't see this suggested yet... but why couldn't one simply open with a 3-stalker build and then transition into a 4-warpgate as to counteract the early map control of this build?
On February 22 2011 02:10 Treehead wrote: I've read the whole thread, and I didn't see this suggested yet... but why couldn't one simply open with a 3-stalker build and then transition into a 4-warpgate as to counteract the early map control of this build?
The build isn't optimized for that. Surely you can, but if you follow up your early map control with a 2 colossus push you'll kill almost anything. I've killed fast carriers, fast expands, blink stalkers -a good 2 colossus push kills just about everything except other colossus!
On February 22 2011 02:10 Treehead wrote: I've read the whole thread, and I didn't see this suggested yet... but why couldn't one simply open with a 3-stalker build and then transition into a 4-warpgate as to counteract the early map control of this build?
The build isn't optimized for that. Surely you can, but if you follow up your early map control with a 2 colossus push you'll kill almost anything. I've killed fast carriers, fast expands, blink stalkers -a good 2 colossus push kills just about everything except other colossus!
If you watch the Artosis video, you'll see that he has enough for 2 additional warpgates when he tosses down the robo (and also that by tossing down the pylon before queueing the 2nd or building the 3rd stalker, you avoid being supply blocked). By building these instead of the robo, your gateways will come up right as the robo would finish.
If you toss up the pylon he puts at the front of the base at the front of the opponents base instead, you've got three stalkers out and 4 gateways coming up. If you save the second CB he uses on probes for the cyber core instead in addition to the first CB he uses on the 1st stalker, you can spend a bunch of CB on warpgate research and still have 3 stalkers out at the same time.
The big problem with 4-warpgates in general is that you can adapt just about any opening into a strong 4 warpgate without too much effort. I understand that this build is strong against the 4-warpgates currently being used, and that this is probably the reason this build is safe atm, but given this build, can't a 4-warpgate be designed in this way to hit earlier?
Also, I am likely the worst player posting in this thread, and this is purely theorycraft (albeit with a very concrete adjustment to the build in a vod - which isn't too hard to do), but can anyone see a reason why this adjustment wouldn't function the same as the current 4-warpgate vs. early robo does?
On February 22 2011 03:13 Treehead wrote:Also, I am likely the worst player posting in this thread, and this is purely theorycraft (albeit with a very concrete adjustment to the build in a vod - which isn't too hard to do), but can anyone see a reason why this adjustment wouldn't function the same as the current 4-warpgate vs. early robo does?
You spend three chronoboosts on stalkers in order for the Stalkers to fulfill their purpose. If you spend this on warpgate instead, the Stalkers cannot fulfill their purpose very well and you can't get out early tech and be safe. Why would you want to do a delayed 4 Gate with this opening, rather than an extremely safe, fast and efficient teching to robo?
On February 18 2011 03:50 CecilSunkure wrote: IIRC YongHwa chronoboosted the same way I did in my replays. Also Day9 said in one of his dailies that he thinks (i.e. doesn't know) that 12 Gateway with this chronoboost scheme is superior to other schemes. The probe cut is particularly tiny, and no chronoboost is wasted. I'm assuming that getting the probe out slightly earlier with a tiny cut allows your earlier probes to return minerals for a greater amount of time, thus out-paying the tiny cut. I don't have time to actually test this out right now, but I would appreciate it if someone did test out openings and minerals mined -perhaps create a new thread once results are created?
A long time ago I tried to quantitatively evaluate the various pylon/gate timings that I considered "common" openings at the time, here.
kcdc's idea, which if I understand it correctly is just a 9pylon/12gate without a chrono at 10, generates the following result (modified the test a bit, so I'll re-test "normal" 9/12 too):
Both tests were undertaken on Steppes of War, with the top spawn. No split micro was attempted beyond sending probes to a patch that wouldn't result in one of them going behind the mineral line. Insofar as it was within my power, I tried to avoid creating minor differences with probe rallies and when I pulled them off the line to build.
The precise order executed was:
9 Pylon 12 Gate 14 Gas 16 Pylon 16 Core
Probes were transferred to gas nearly perfectly, and scouting was done at 9 for both.
The results, as far as I can tell, suggest that either I am so terrible that I can't cleanly execute a build at slowest game speed or that the 10-chrono variant might give you 4 extra gas. Beyond that, every difference is so small as to be explained by variance in probe AI decisions, my build timing, and whatnot.
From my testing
- 9pylon 12gate scout with chrono after pylon finishes and after gateway starts puts your core finishing @ 3:29 and leaves you about 20 minerals behind - 9pylon 12gate scout with 2 consecutive chronos after gateway puts your core finishing @ 3:30 puts you about 35 minerals behind (when gateway finishes and you don't have not enough money for your core) - 9pylon 13gate scout with chrono @39 energy and again @25 energy finishes your core @ 3:32 with 365 minerals and 128 gas (with14gas 15pylon and nothing but probes made)
All of these done on xelnaga lower position probes stacked on closest patches pylon down exactly on time smart use of nexus rally points etc.
On February 22 2011 03:13 Treehead wrote:Also, I am likely the worst player posting in this thread, and this is purely theorycraft (albeit with a very concrete adjustment to the build in a vod - which isn't too hard to do), but can anyone see a reason why this adjustment wouldn't function the same as the current 4-warpgate vs. early robo does?
You spend three chronoboosts on stalkers in order for the Stalkers to fulfill their purpose. If you spend this on warpgate instead, the Stalkers cannot fulfill their purpose very well and you can't get out early tech and be safe. Why would you want to do a delayed 4 Gate with this opening, rather than an extremely safe, fast and efficient teching to robo?
My point was that if a 4-gating player does this very slightly delayed rush, I don't know if the tech to robo is still "safe". Feel free to disregard this if you feel I'm wrong from your testing, I'm just throwing out suggestions for testing how "safe" this is, and this came to mind. It's a new build so I thought we'd all want to be critical of it before we immediately accepted it as the "counter to all things 4-warpgate".
Also, the chrono boosts on the 2nd and 3rd stalkers are still included in what I mentioned - it's just the first one you skip. It doesn't actually delay the time it takes to get 3 stalkers, just delays the first one a few seconds.
Apologies if what I said earlier wasn't terribly clear.
On February 22 2011 03:13 Treehead wrote:Also, I am likely the worst player posting in this thread, and this is purely theorycraft (albeit with a very concrete adjustment to the build in a vod - which isn't too hard to do), but can anyone see a reason why this adjustment wouldn't function the same as the current 4-warpgate vs. early robo does?
You spend three chronoboosts on stalkers in order for the Stalkers to fulfill their purpose. If you spend this on warpgate instead, the Stalkers cannot fulfill their purpose very well and you can't get out early tech and be safe. Why would you want to do a delayed 4 Gate with this opening, rather than an extremely safe, fast and efficient teching to robo?
My point was that if a 4-gating player does this very slightly delayed rush, I don't know if the tech to robo is still "safe".
If you don't know, then go test it out. I don't see how delaying the 4 Gate would help, as currently a fast 4 Gate can't crack this build if this build is done properly. Robo armies gain efficiency over time on a non-linear fashion whereas a gateway army will fall behind over time compared to a robo-centric one. The reason 4 Gate works is because it allows the user's army to be better than anything else for a certain amount of time.
Here is a 4 Gate army's efficiency over time compared to a Robo army. The part where the Gateway army surpasses the robo army is where most people die.
Now, take a look at what the 3 Stalker opening does for you. It forces a 4 Gate army to have a slight hiccup that allows you to get your force out without being at risk.
A 3 stalker variation of 4gate is an AWFUL idea because: -It delays your 4gate up to 45 seconds (!!) -robo player has defender's advantage, meaning they will always have a higher stalker count than you at any proxy location
This build doesn't scare me in ladder because nobody knows how to do it yet (except for Cecil and Artosis) and I can EASILY sac my zealot and lure their stalkers towards my base while proxying right outside their ramp. When I warpin they have to choose between sending their 2 stalkers (I'm assuming I was able to kill one with my two stalkers) to my base to try and do some damage (which I can just warp 4 zealots in to stop), or send their stalkers ALLLLL the way back to their own base, where they will be fighting a losing battle. This build demands near-perfect stalker control to be consistent vs a competent 4gate, but it's our only consistent option.
On February 22 2011 07:19 CCalms wrote: A 3 stalker variation of 4gate is an AWFUL idea because: -It delays your 4gate up to 45 seconds (!!) -robo player has defender's advantage, meaning they will always have a higher stalker count than you at any proxy location
I have no idea where you get the idea that 4-warpgates would be delayed by as much as 45 seconds. You can still get in 3 or so CBs on warpgate tech, and you're certainly not waiting on units to finish building once the tech upgrades.
Warpgates imply that this is not necessarily the case. If you have 4, and your opponent has 3 and is building an immortal, I don't see why he'd have more stalkers than you.
On February 22 2011 03:13 Treehead wrote:Also, I am likely the worst player posting in this thread, and this is purely theorycraft (albeit with a very concrete adjustment to the build in a vod - which isn't too hard to do), but can anyone see a reason why this adjustment wouldn't function the same as the current 4-warpgate vs. early robo does?
You spend three chronoboosts on stalkers in order for the Stalkers to fulfill their purpose. If you spend this on warpgate instead, the Stalkers cannot fulfill their purpose very well and you can't get out early tech and be safe. Why would you want to do a delayed 4 Gate with this opening, rather than an extremely safe, fast and efficient teching to robo?
My point was that if a 4-gating player does this very slightly delayed rush, I don't know if the tech to robo is still "safe".
If you don't know, then go test it out. I don't see how delaying the 4 Gate would help, as currently a fast 4 Gate can't crack this build if this build is done properly. Robo armies gain efficiency over time on a non-linear fashion whereas a gateway army will fall behind over time compared to a robo-centric one. The reason 4 Gate works is because it allows the user's army to be better than anything else for a certain amount of time.
Here is a 4 Gate army's efficiency over time compared to a Robo army. The part where the Gateway army surpasses the robo army is where most people die.
Now, take a look at what the 3 Stalker opening does for you. It forces a 4 Gate army to have a slight hiccup that allows you to get your force out without being at risk.
What are these graphs based on? Gut feel, or were there calculations involved here? I get that if you can tech safely you should do so, as gateway units aren't nearly as effective lategame, but at what time to the graphs cross - and why is the gateway army lower even before the immortal comes out on your second graph?
I certainly will try it out when I have time. I'm just suggesting something to try if people want to be sure this build is safe. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm certainly not good enough to definitively be able to test these things. You probably are. As I said, feel free to disregard this if you think I'm just wrong. I just was making an observation.
The graphs are based on personal experience. The point where the graphs cross is where an old robo opening would be able to hold the units from a 4 Gate off. Also, Day9 said something about the power of robo units over time compared to Gateway units here (I think): http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4392915/
The gateway army is lower in the second graph due to the use of the three stalkers, like the OP details about. It should be pretty obvious why; deny proxy pylons and/or kill off initial zealot/stalker/probe.
On February 22 2011 02:11 kzn wrote: You wont hit before immortals come out, I think.
I just tried this against an AI. I had 7 stalkers and was still at 100 minerals/200 gas at 6:15. My probe never left my base until I had 3 stalkers. At this point, the Artosis build has 3 stalkers and a sentry and has just become able to warp in units (in the next 10 or so seconds).
If I opened with a 10-gate, I could set this time back to 5:57. Again, a reminder that I am not a terribly high level player, so your timings may vary. Immortals don't hit the stage until around 7 minutes. By that time, I'll have had another warp-in round of zealots.
stop calling it the artosis build please, especially in the thread created by the person who actually did the work to interpret this build from YongHwa's VOD.
secondly, by the time he has those 3 stalkers and a sentry, he well and truly has defender's advantage. Shortly after the sentry comes out, warpgate finishes, he'll be able to warp in 2 zealots and his immortal will be about to pop.
You can test this endlessly and I guarantee you there is no better way (currently) to hold a 4gate besides 4gating yourself.
This build hasn't been very effective for me, he just goes zealot heavy when he sees my immortal and I'm fucked. Then it's 3 gates vs 4 since the immortal becomes quite useless if he avoids heavy stalker. It just doesn't work for me.
On February 22 2011 17:12 Trizz wrote: This build hasn't been very effective for me, he just goes zealot heavy when he sees my immortal and I'm fucked. Then it's 3 gates vs 4 since the immortal becomes quite useless if he avoids heavy stalker. It just doesn't work for me.
Post replays so we can help you out with what you're doing wrong.
Hi Cecil. Thanks very much for putting this together and making yet another contribution to the TL Protoss. I've been using this as my standard PvP opener for the last 3 or 4 days.
All in all, I like the build. I'd say that I've only lost to 4Gates when my control/micro was questionable. What I do love about this build is that it still stays roughly even with any tech related build.
I did have one question - Have you ever considered a gas steal with this build? I gave it some through and tried it out a couple of times - I usually gas steal between the first and second stalker. My thought is that after the the 4Gate fails, to make it tougher to transition out of 4Gate into Robo or Startech, almost encouraging an expansion with the additional minerals and shortage of gas therefore almost guarenteeing the success of my 2 Colossus timing push.
Perhaps it's not your style to counter with a 1 Base all in and you'd prefer to expand yourself? I get savage pleasure from crushing 4Gaters so I just go for the kill and honestly, there really is not much at all my opponent can do. If they dropped a Robo immediately after they are pushed away their first Colossus should not be out yet and they should have 2 Void Rays at the most, which are easily focused down.
I'm thinking about which one of these PvP builds gives you a better mid game against 4 gaters, as well as other builds, between the fast 3 stalker build and the 1 gas gate, robo, gate build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191430).
The stalker build will let you tech easier with more gas. This seems to be the biggest difference to me. I also feel like the stalker build helps you defend against the 4 gate better than the 1 gas, gate, robo, gate build. But good builds not only need to be able to defend the 4 gate, but also deal with the other protoss builds.
Economy wise, they both seem quite similar as well as having the same production facilities (2 gates and a robo).
Can anyone else point out some pros/cons comparing the two builds?
I have been doing this build pretty much every pvp I get in. It just is all around a better opener, IF DONE CORRECTLY. The flow of the build is nice too, get 3 stalkers, drop down robo while you take map control, drop down gate. Then it's pretty much observer to see if you are going 2 colossi no lance or lance plus expand.
Trust me, I hated PvP and this build pretty much changed that. I have also been working in going blink stalkers after the robo on 4 player maps. I think tyler does something like this....
Adel's is best used on small maps or close positions meaning that you'll be able to scout it before you fully commit to this build. On larger maps you will have more time to prepare for the early pressure. This build transitions very smoothly into 1 Base Colossus which has an extremely strong timing against any FE build.
I've not read through kcdc's build, but I don't think that anyone said either is better. It will probably come down to what suits your personal style more comfortably.
On February 23 2011 06:58 gertg wrote: how does this do against adel's FE, and why is it better then kcdc's fast robo? they can both hold off a 4 gate and have other advantages with it?
Because you get two gas earlier and thus you can tech to Colossus much faster with more Stalkers in the mix too.
KCDC's build is pretty fun though, because you can follow the opponents failed 4WG with a 1base 4gate Chargelot + Immortal drop (ferry your units into their base via Warp Prism :D) if you can get a FF on the ramp you can take out all their gateways in less than 20seconds, and unless they went Sentry heavy, you can just win from shear brute force of chargelots
EDIT:
Oh yeah, and KCDC's build tends to fall apart if they delay their attack and warpin a ton of Zealots instead of Stalkers, unless you were quick at throwing down a gateway during the fight, you end up losing sometimes, usually comes down to micro. My micro isn't that good, so I like this one better.
On February 23 2011 21:52 Vexu wrote: adel build is relying on gw units for a long time, robo tech should be better with proper force field usage before getting critical mass.
yes, but on small maps, adel has a fast 4 zealot push, are the stalkers out in time to prevent them from doing to much damage?
On February 23 2011 21:52 Vexu wrote: adel build is relying on gw units for a long time, robo tech should be better with proper force field usage before getting critical mass.
yes, but on small maps, adel has a fast 4 zealot push, are the stalkers out in time to prevent them from doing to much damage?
People know how to stop that now a days :S, you just throw down a faster second gate (usually as soon as you see no gas + 2gateways), defend with only taking like 2/3 probe losses then continuing with the 4gate, your warpgate tech is so late that you won't be able to hold it off
On February 22 2011 17:12 Trizz wrote: This build hasn't been very effective for me, he just goes zealot heavy when he sees my immortal and I'm fucked. Then it's 3 gates vs 4 since the immortal becomes quite useless if he avoids heavy stalker. It just doesn't work for me.
If you take your single sentry at the ramp and manage to trap a few zealots above, you can kill a few zealots, while you then chrono boost your by now 4 warpgates and mass zealots. That's what I do.
So started trying this build last night, as luck would have it I played 6 PvP's and 5 were against 4Gaters O.o ( wtf has happened to this matchup? )
I'm at work now so I cannot include replays but I was only really successful once. It seems that word of this build might have spread to the 4gate crowd as the only standard 5S 1z up your ramp at 5:45 was the one I crushed.
What have you guys been doing against someone who moves out with a large enough force, obviously a little later than the standard 1S 1Z push to establish the proxy pylon, and then builds proxy pylons close enough to warp into your base; and then builds up an army of mostly Zealots waiting for your FF's to end?
At a certain point I had to miss a Sentry and it was all over. His force of 80% Zealots made my Robo and Immortal wasted minerals. Was this just mis-macro / micro on my point? What are you guys doing in this situation, can you get enough Sentries to keep them out forever? When it's 3gate production vs 4gate, and you have to keep producing Sentries, at a certain point it becomes impossible.
I'm at my wit's end with PvP, I hoped that first xkcd's build and then this were the 4gate hard counter I've been waiting for but I feel like I still have to play 100 times better than a 4gater to survive and I'm starting to get frustrated giving wins away.
After thinking about this more, could the answer be still being semi-aggressive even after delaying the initial proxy pylon and warp in? My problem is them pyloning in my nat and just building army waiting for my FF's to fail. Would less Sentries and more aggression to keep their numbers low be a better answer?
Sounds like by "miss a Sentry" you're constantly forcefielding the ramp pre-emptively and making more Sentries to cover your tracks. This isn't how you do it! In almost any FF situation in PvP, you wait for him to run up the ramp, then split a piece of his army off with a forcefield and duckshoot what's come up the ramp with your ranged units.
You only need one Sentry initially, because one Forcefield should net you three-four units at very little cost, provided you microed well. If he stands outside your ramp building up Zealots, then you sit at your ramp building up energy on your Sentry and if he runs up the ramp you break a piece off and kill it. Rinse and repeat while teching to Colossi.
The biggest problem my 3.2k Master friend and I have found is simply executing the build well. This is absolutely an exercise in "doing it right". If you scout well with your Stalkers and force him to warp in the first Stalker round in his base then it's an instant win against a ramp-break provided you didn't mess anything up in your own build. Would not recommend doing this build if you're in Platinum or even Diamond.
On February 23 2011 23:32 oweng wrote: So started trying this build last night, as luck would have it I played 6 PvP's and 5 were against 4Gaters O.o ( wtf has happened to this matchup? )
I'm at work now so I cannot include replays but I was only really successful once. It seems that word of this build might have spread to the 4gate crowd as the only standard 5S 1z up your ramp at 5:45 was the one I crushed.
What have you guys been doing against someone who moves out with a large enough force, obviously a little later than the standard 1S 1Z push to establish the proxy pylon, and then builds proxy pylons close enough to warp into your base; and then builds up an army of mostly Zealots waiting for your FF's to end?
At a certain point I had to miss a Sentry and it was all over. His force of 80% Zealots made my Robo and Immortal wasted minerals. Was this just mis-macro / micro on my point? What are you guys doing in this situation, can you get enough Sentries to keep them out forever? When it's 3gate production vs 4gate, and you have to keep producing Sentries, at a certain point it becomes impossible.
I'm at my wit's end with PvP, I hoped that first xkcd's build and then this were the 4gate hard counter I've been waiting for but I feel like I still have to play 100 times better than a 4gater to survive and I'm starting to get frustrated giving wins away.
After thinking about this more, could the answer be still being semi-aggressive even after delaying the initial proxy pylon and warp in? My problem is them pyloning in my nat and just building army waiting for my FF's to fail. Would less Sentries and more aggression to keep their numbers low be a better answer?
I believe 3 sentries recharge energy fast enough to perma FF the ramp, so I don't know what you mean by "miss a sentry," unless you mean you messed up your FFs (but that's player error). Usually how I go about it is I warp-in 1 sentry after warpgate tech is done, then warp-in additional sentries as needed (and as noted above, you never need more than 3 to protect your ramp).
If you get contained just make a warp prism and ferry 4 zealots + 1 round of warp-ins (so he can't counter it with 1 round of his own warp-ins) at his base (target probes, then pylons powering their gateways). Most of the time they will call gg right then and there. If not, they'll probably send at least some of their forces back to defend, allowing you to break the contain (send the warp prism back to your base to elevator your units down if needed).
3 sentries is not sufficient to permanently FF a ramp - you need 6. However, in my experience if you get the 3rd sentry sentry out Warpgates will finish in time such that you can get your 6 sentries before you run out of FFs.
Is this preferred though? I feel if you use too many waprgates on Sentries you will die. They can push up the ramp and get vision to warp in on your main.
I feel like 1 Sentry to try for the original 2 FF's would be good but any after that could be a liability?
You only need one or two sentries. If you're constructing a colossus while they are trying to push up your ramp you'll need at least one immortal, and since you won't have another immortal out you'll more than likely need another sentry (for a total of two). If you continue immortal production then you'll only need your first initial sentry. The first force field is usually used just to buy you enough time to get your first immortal out and start production on the next.
On February 23 2011 21:52 Vexu wrote: adel build is relying on gw units for a long time, robo tech should be better with proper force field usage before getting critical mass.
yes, but on small maps, adel has a fast 4 zealot push, are the stalkers out in time to prevent them from doing to much damage?
People know how to stop that now a days :S, you just throw down a faster second gate (usually as soon as you see no gas + 2gateways), defend with only taking like 2/3 probe losses then continuing with the 4gate, your warpgate tech is so late that you won't be able to hold it off
This isn't true... You seem to forget that they Adel opening can opt for 5 wargpates rather than an expo in the case they don't deal much damage. Even if they deal no damage they can get back up their ramp and hold your push, this is because they'll have 3-5 gateways producing units until warpgate is finished. I had a PvP during a clan war where this exact scenario happened, and, my 5 warpgates (with more probes than him) out produced his 4 and I ended up winning, despite my initial push not doing much of anything.
So Cecil, if you saw they were massing Zealots as opposed to a mixed or Stalker heavy army would you get a 2nd Sentry, concentrate on Zealots and go for a Colossus; otherwise get a 2nd Immortal and then an Obs?
On February 24 2011 04:52 oweng wrote: So Cecil, if you saw they were massing Zealots as opposed to a mixed or Stalker heavy army would you get a 2nd Sentry, concentrate on Zealots and go for a Colossus; otherwise get a 2nd Immortal and then an Obs?
If they were getting just zealots I'd get a ton of stalkers and then just win. If they were doing a normal 4 Warpgate rush I'd just continue with immortal production and the standard opening, mixing in a robo support bay when I could afford it.
Every Protoss I face on the ladder uses this build now, it's ridiculous. I've started going with a blink stalker build. Well-executed blink stalker counters this build pretty hard, in fact I saw an example of this in some tournament recently. I think it was in the GCPL. Basically just use your blink stalkers to keep them in their base and expand. Half of the time you'll kill them (if they're bad), the rest of the time they end up with 1-2 more colossi than you but you have a massive econ advantage. It works best in certain maps like Metal, LT, etc. where the blink stalkers can get between your bases very quickly. Any thoughts on that?
I've won against a 4gater who eventually went Blink Stalker, are you talking about someone who goes straight for Blink? Because if I didn't scout the 4gate I wouldn't use this build. Not that it hurts your econ that much, probably just add an earlier gas for the Obs and see your Council.
On February 25 2011 01:40 oweng wrote: I've won against a 4gater who eventually went Blink Stalker, are you talking about someone who goes straight for Blink? Because if I didn't scout the 4gate I wouldn't use this build. Not that it hurts your econ that much, probably just add an earlier gas for the Obs and see your Council.
Yeah, I just go straight for blink. It's actually pretty similar to the robo build except you replace the robo with a council. You're right that you don't have to go for the robo build if you scout a 2nd gas, but so far it hasn't deterred anyone I play against. Problem is, if you scout a 2nd gas and choose to 4gate, you might break the blink build but you will lose to the robo (which is more common). The two builds are indistinguishable until your probe dies.
On February 25 2011 00:29 Cel.erity wrote: Every Protoss I face on the ladder uses this build now, it's ridiculous. I've started going with a blink stalker build. Well-executed blink stalker counters this build pretty hard, in fact I saw an example of this in some tournament recently. I think it was in the GCPL. Basically just use your blink stalkers to keep them in their base and expand. Half of the time you'll kill them (if they're bad), the rest of the time they end up with 1-2 more colossi than you but you have a massive econ advantage. It works best in certain maps like Metal, LT, etc. where the blink stalkers can get between your bases very quickly. Any thoughts on that?
Every time I've faced blink stalkers I go for a 2 colossus push and win. They usually try to blink onto my colossus and snipe them, but they take so much damage during the process that I just win with my ground army. Also, when you can tell they are going to blink I try to place FF around my army, so when they do blink there are FFs in the way.
Also YongHwa in the VOD in the OP destroyed FFMon who went for blink stalkers.
On February 25 2011 00:29 Cel.erity wrote: Every Protoss I face on the ladder uses this build now, it's ridiculous. I've started going with a blink stalker build. Well-executed blink stalker counters this build pretty hard, in fact I saw an example of this in some tournament recently. I think it was in the GCPL. Basically just use your blink stalkers to keep them in their base and expand. Half of the time you'll kill them (if they're bad), the rest of the time they end up with 1-2 more colossi than you but you have a massive econ advantage. It works best in certain maps like Metal, LT, etc. where the blink stalkers can get between your bases very quickly. Any thoughts on that?
Every time I've faced blink stalkers I go for a 2 colossus push and win. They usually try to blink onto my colossus and snipe them, but they take so much damage during the process that I just win with my ground army. Also, when you can tell they are going to blink I try to place FF around my army, so when they do blink there are FFs in the way.
Also YongHwa in the VOD in the OP destroyed FFMon who went for blink stalkers.
The idea is that if they push out, you can blink into their main and take out their production before they get to your base. by the time they have 2 colossi at my base, I have 1, and they can't reinforce.
I've been thinking about what to do if the other guy fast expands and I think there are a few possible options and pros and cons:
Switch to a 4 gate and kill him.
When do you have to scout in order to be able to transition to a 4 gate?
Will you actually be able to kill him?
Push with Colossus and kill him.
Will you actually be able to kill him?
Expand yourself and be ahead on tech.
Will you be too far behind?
Anyone have any experience with the above? I'd also love to play a set of practice games testing the above out. PM me if you are interested. You'll need to be able to execute the builds perfectly though, otherwise the testing is not valid.
When you notice they are going blink stalkers I feel its good to switch over to just imortals and then getting blink your self. Also, expanding while doing this if their base is far because immortals will take 4 days to get acrross the map.
On February 25 2011 04:58 [Atomic]Peace wrote: I've been thinking about what to do if the other guy fast expands and I think there are a few possible options and pros and cons:
Switch to a 4 gate and kill him.
When do you have to scout in order to be able to transition to a 4 gate?
Will you actually be able to kill him?
Push with Colossus and kill him.
Will you actually be able to kill him?
Expand yourself and be ahead on tech.
Will you be too far behind?
Anyone have any experience with the above? I'd also love to play a set of practice games testing the above out. PM me if you are interested. You'll need to be able to execute the builds perfectly though, otherwise the testing is not valid.
It depends how fast is the fast expansion. If it is off of one gate, you could probably just push out with your 3 gate robo army, maybe colossi or just an immortal or two. I guess it also depends on his composition - if he has mostly stalkers and the number of sentries.
I don't think this applies to your question, but I just played a guy where we both went this build. Once I scouted that he had no expansion with an observer I took my expo. He must have felt desperate and suited up and attacked without expanding. It was close, but my income held out and I won.
My expansion went down right as my observer got to his base (opposite corner positions on shakuras). I don't really think that counts as fast, but it worked out this particular game.
This build has been good to me. If my opponent goes for a 4 gate I can usually hold it and get into the mid game with a slight to moderate advantage. At the worst I will lose to a really good 4 gate once in a while or lose to a colossi battle in the mid-late game. I will take these chances over any other PvP builds I had used before. Thanks for breaking this build down Cecil!
From what I understand about the build, it does not transition into a 4 gate well so that probably won't do well.
I have used this build to varying degrees of success, usually if they slow push their way down with pylons it doesnt work Ie. Pylon in the middle of the map to pylon outside your base etc. but if they get gready and just start with a pylon in your natural or just below your ramp it actually works great, i still find three gate robo rather risky against 4 gate, but if you can hold it off, you pretty much win :D
Quick question, Cecil: how do you deal with really, really aggressive proxy Pylon placement? 3.6k Master Toss was rolling me (~3.2k) last night by doing the following;
-- Upon seeing the 2-gate 2-gas, he cuts the second Stalker out of the 4-gate build, banzais his units across the map and uses the spare minerals from the cut Stalker plus a bit to proxy Pylons everywhere a la Korean 4-gate (but outside my base, obviously). An example is Pylons at tower, behind gold and in natural on Xel'Naga Caverns.
-- If I kill his Zealot and Stalker (and I do have that choice because he's just suiciding them) then I end up with 2/3 Stalkers and almost-a-Sentry against proxy Pylons usually right outside my base which I can't kill in time because there's 2 or 3 of them.
-- If I go for the Probe, he gets good damage on my Stalkers and generally has a reasonably-close Pylon to warp in from anyway. The Probe's fast so there's no guarantee I'll actually get it provided he micros well.
-- If I go for the Pylons, all my junk dies.
-- If I go for his base, we base trade and he has more junk.
Thoughts? I can provide replays tomorrow if you want, right now I'm going to bed.
To me it still seems the entire effectiveness of this tactic depends on the bases being far enough apart. Really close bases just seem like you take too long to kill their stalker + zealot to really take care of the proxy.
Zefa wanted to, but I was busy at the time. I've been doing 13 gate more often, as you have time to react appropriately against proxy gates. It isn't too safe vs cannons unless you notice before your probe gets to the enemy base in time.
I'm having problems with people who choose to gas steal when they see me put down my 2nd gateway. I get the 3 stalkers out fine, push back their proxy fine, but I'm not left with enough gas to complete the build.
On February 27 2011 07:46 thesauceishot wrote: I'm having problems with people who choose to gas steal when they see me put down my 2nd gateway. I get the 3 stalkers out fine, push back their proxy fine, but I'm not left with enough gas to complete the build.
Go into a delayed 4 gate. With high ground advantage and slightly better econ, you should be able to hold off a 4 gate with this build. For some reference games, check minigun vs kiwikaki in the recent Root gaming tourney. Many of the games of their 5 gate series fit your description.
What should i do if I see my opp goes for a second gas. Should I still get one immortal before observer even if i see no proxy pylon. And if I go for observer first should i place down robotics bay before my observer scouts his base?
I feel like if i place down robocits bay before i Scout him I feel week vs stargate play. What should i do against that. But if I wait till i Scout him I am weak vs a quicker collosus opening.
On February 27 2011 07:46 thesauceishot wrote: I'm having problems with people who choose to gas steal when they see me put down my 2nd gateway. I get the 3 stalkers out fine, push back their proxy fine, but I'm not left with enough gas to complete the build.
4gate them back when that happens, they will delay one of their gateways while you can have all 4 come up when Warpgate tech is done, not to mention you haven't spent your chrono yet, so you should be fine.
If the other guy is also doing 3 Stalker robo, you might be in trouble. You might just want to go 1gas Robo -> Immortal Drop off 4gates
How does this build compare against kcdc's 2 gate robo counter to 4gate (i.e. 13 gas build)?
I tried doing this stalker build and honestly found it hard because it seemed to requrie a lot of multitasking (controlling 3 stalkers to patrol different parts of the map, then doing the opening build). Kcdcs build seems easier as you pretty much want the attack to come to your base.
Is there an easier or more methodical way to patrol the map and prevent the proxy? Or am I right in saying it is just assuming a level of multi tasking?? Otherwise it sounds like a good counter worth working on!
Is it me or is your economy worse than someone who also 4gates? I've found my economy to be sometimes 400/500 resources behind (depending on how long he drags his 4gate on).
Sometimes you need that Stalker out asap, but you have to cut probes for a while to do it
On March 01 2011 15:41 bankai wrote: How does this build compare against kcdc's 2 gate robo counter to 4gate (i.e. 13 gas build)?
I tried doing this stalker build and honestly found it hard because it seemed to requrie a lot of multitasking (controlling 3 stalkers to patrol different parts of the map, then doing the opening build). Kcdcs build seems easier as you pretty much want the attack to come to your base.
Is there an easier or more methodical way to patrol the map and prevent the proxy? Or am I right in saying it is just assuming a level of multi tasking?? Otherwise it sounds like a good counter worth working on!
My zealot immortal build isn't easy to execute either. If you do it perfectly, you have 5 zealots, 1 stalker and 1 immortal at 5:55. I practice the build a lot, and I'm still late by 10+ seconds fairly often.
Effectively, both builds are pretty good against 4 gate, but both require a pretty advanced level of execution. If you believe that you can beat 4 gate with either build (I do), then you want to look at how each build fares against the other options. For example, the 3 stalker opening is going to be stronger against stargate plays. My opening feels really strong against robo builds tho. Immortal + warp prism > colossi.
On March 01 2011 18:07 Dommk wrote: Is it me or is your economy worse than someone who also 4gates? I've found my economy to be sometimes 400/500 resources behind (depending on how long he drags his 4gate on).
Sometimes you need that Stalker out asap, but you have to cut probes for a while to do it
I feel you're doing it wrong, as I don't cut probes.
In the DuckloadRa vs Ace series in IEM, Ra opened 3 stalk robo build each game, Ace countered Ra's build with 1 gate robos. from the replays it seems like the tell was that zealot wasnt building in gate.(Ace started his 2nd gas when the core was only half way done). but isnt that dangerous when Ra could do the 6 stalks without that 1 zeal at 5:45 doing 4gate? (Ra still has probe in his main when Ace started 2nd gas)
i dont do 3 stalk build enough(less than 10 times) so there might be some other signs that wasnt obvious to me
On March 03 2011 01:05 b_unnies wrote: In the DuckloadRa vs Ace series in IEM, Ra opened 3 stalk robo build each game, Ace countered Ra's build with 1 gate robos. from the replays it seems like the tell was that zealot wasnt building in gate.(Ace started his 2nd gas when the core was only half way done). but isnt that dangerous when Ra could do the 6 stalks without that 1 zeal at 5:45 doing 4gate? (Ra still has probe in his main when Ace started 2nd gas)
i dont do 3 stalk build enough(less than 10 times) so there might be some other signs that wasnt obvious to me
Sort of worthless to post this without a link to the series
On March 03 2011 01:05 b_unnies wrote: In the DuckloadRa vs Ace series in IEM, Ra opened 3 stalk robo build each game, Ace countered Ra's build with 1 gate robos. from the replays it seems like the tell was that zealot wasnt building in gate.(Ace started his 2nd gas when the core was only half way done). but isnt that dangerous when Ra could do the 6 stalks without that 1 zeal at 5:45 doing 4gate? (Ra still has probe in his main when Ace started 2nd gas)
i dont do 3 stalk build enough(less than 10 times) so there might be some other signs that wasnt obvious to me
Sort of worthless to post this without a link to the series
On March 03 2011 01:05 b_unnies wrote: In the DuckloadRa vs Ace series in IEM, Ra opened 3 stalk robo build each game, Ace countered Ra's build with 1 gate robos. from the replays it seems like the tell was that zealot wasnt building in gate.(Ace started his 2nd gas when the core was only half way done). but isnt that dangerous when Ra could do the 6 stalks without that 1 zeal at 5:45 doing 4gate? (Ra still has probe in his main when Ace started 2nd gas)
i dont do 3 stalk build enough(less than 10 times) so there might be some other signs that wasnt obvious to me
No because whitera did an economic 3stalker and im pretty sure ace saw his second gas.
Is there any advice on to what units you should follow up with to be safe from a random timing attack 4 gate? I have learned this build and can execute it pretty much flawlessly but sometimes he just comes back with a trillion 4 gate units and breaks me even when I deny his pylon at the bottom of my ramp. When is it safe to add robo tech and should I warp in all zealots after the initial 3 stalkers to maybe bank gas? I'm mid-masters and have practiced this build a lot so my timings are pretty spot on as are my opponents.
Also made the mistake a couple of times losing to blink stalker builds because I thought he was going for the 3 stalker build as well so I immediately thew down robo and he just blinked and killed me, tho i could have held but my control is pitiful.
Hi Cecil I've been trying out this build, but I seem to fail with it. Here is the replay down below, i dont mind any criticism considering I blow PvP and seriously need some help... My current track record PvP is like 1-17 O_O I'm suprised I'm still in diamond... http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4984/Oreo_vs_Heston
On March 03 2011 01:05 b_unnies wrote: In the DuckloadRa vs Ace series in IEM, Ra opened 3 stalk robo build each game, Ace countered Ra's build with 1 gate robos. from the replays it seems like the tell was that zealot wasnt building in gate.(Ace started his 2nd gas when the core was only half way done). but isnt that dangerous when Ra could do the 6 stalks without that 1 zeal at 5:45 doing 4gate? (Ra still has probe in his main when Ace started 2nd gas)
i dont do 3 stalk build enough(less than 10 times) so there might be some other signs that wasnt obvious to me
Sort of worthless to post this without a link to the series
hrmmm well first replay definitely was not decided by the openers at all. The second game is a closer comparison but still, in that game, whitera didnt even get his 2nd and 3rd stalkers out until like 5:30 so it wasnt really the same build. It wouldnt have held off anything. Game 1 was won by the hidden expansion. I think judging the strength of the build by these games is a humongous theoretical leap. If anything, the fact that he uses the build against a korean gamer in a high profile tournament when koreans are known for their awesome 4 gate timings is a testament to his confidence in it.
edit: I kind of have to renege a little bit on the above paragraph regarding game 1. Though the build order didnt determine the outcome, if you watch the full game on the regular speed from Ace's perspective, you can see just how many corners he cuts based on how he scouts whitera. Its pretty remarkable. I also dug how he handled the expansion. He kept his army count high by restricting himself to only building one probe at a time at the hidden expo rather than what most of us would probably do and try to build 2 at once. He kind of eased the expansion in rather than having it be some huge deficit putting whiteras army miles ahead.
On March 03 2011 11:34 Heston wrote: Hi Cecil I've been trying out this build, but I seem to fail with it. Here is the replay down below, i dont mind any criticism considering I blow PvP and seriously need some help... My current track record PvP is like 1-17 O_O I'm suprised I'm still in diamond... http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4984/Oreo_vs_Heston
Okay I watched the replay. Here are some things...
1) He 10 gated against you. This is something you should have noticed immediately upon entering his base. To verify this, when you enter your opponents base the next time, click on their gateway and look at where its HP is at...then hit your hotkey for you own gateway. Did you drop your gateways at the same time? Since you 12 gated you would have known that he must have 10 gated based on how far along his building was. You can measure it against the cybernetics core if you scout him too late as well. Its important to know his gateway timing as it often tells you how aggressive he is planning on being. A 10 gate is always aggressive.
2) After seeing the 10 gate you should have assumed either some kind of very heavy early zealot pressure or that he was doing the korean 4 gate. Either way, it is at this point that you should have abandoned this particular 3 stalker opening. In order to stop both zealot rushes and K 4gate you will need units on the ground ASAP. At this point you should have built a zealot and then checked to make sure he wasnt adding more gateways or something forcing you to match him.
3) Since he wasnt adding gateways and he went cybercore right after gate (as opposed to maybe 1 in base gate and 1 proxy gate or something) you can tell he was going to do a K4gate. Another 'tell' is that he built no units in his base iirc. Thats a good sign of a K4g and not a zealot rush. With this information you should have been able to decide "KR4gates coming". Now all you have to do is respond to it. Again, abandoning a 3 stalker opening is a good start for stopping KR4gate.
4) The proper response to Korean 4 gate is to constantly build units from your gateways while adding additional gateways until you get to 4 (usually). You'll be too far behind in tech (~30 seconds) to compete with his 4 gate with your own 4 gate. The key is to have army on the ground and in your base to dps down the pylons and do damage to the units as they warp in. Its important that you limit where he can actually warp in. You will have a chance to kill one or two while theyre warping in so its important you choose to kill the pylons that will put you in a good spot strategically. If he has pylons by your probes that should be priority. If you can take it out, great, if not do your best to damage the units themselves as they warp in. His warp ins will tend to be zealot heavy and you will need zealots to combat that as stalkers kill them too slow in general. If you build units all early game you can stop this specific 4 gate, but you will lose to a normal style 4 gate so you cant just use this approach vs. everything.
5 and 6 refer to your execution of the 3 stalker opening 5) lets assume he did a normal 12 gate 20 probe aggressive 4 gate (The build this opener is designed to shut down). You made a couple big mistakes executing this opener. First, you didnt add a second gas. The second gas is supposed to come after you queue up the very first stalker. Its important because when you do shut down the 4 gate you will have that extra gas for teching. Otherwise you have no advantage. At a point early on you had almost 400 minerals and no gas.
6)The point of your stalkers are to prevent the proxy from being too near your base. Anything beyond this is bonus. If you can just slow down the push by 30 seconds or so you will have an immortal. At that point you're golden. The sentry that is supposed to be a part of the build also helps get that immortal out before they are up your ramp. You arent killing the 4 gate player with this opener or shutting down his attack... you are delaying it long enough to get the shit you need to hold it and gaining a tech advantage simultaneously. In your game, instead of looking under every rock for the proxy, you just sent a stalker into his base.
The bottom line with your game is that you didnt use the information you got from scouting to do the proper response to his korean 4 gate. The information was there... you missapplied it or ignored it and continued trying to execute a build that will not hold off your opponents build. Its not a testament to the strength of the build, but rather an indicator that you should study some replays and learn responses to these types of things and how to scout them. Good luck
everything is timed out until very last seconds and STRONGLY do not recomended for non-master players. If you over make a probe -> die to 4 gates. pylon 5 second late-> die to 4 gates....
compare to a normal 4 gates, this is MUCH harder to execute.
another point is that its REALLY easy to know this build coming: no 1st zealot and fast early 2nd gate. This means that the player who use this strat is vulnerable to anykind of mind game early on: 1 gate robo, 1 gate expand blah blah. And even if you get robo out, you wont be able to start colossus right away (need immo).
conclusion: freaking unbelieveable hard to execute but once you hv done it, you have to start to think about the mind games which is FUCKING inception.
Maybe it is just me, but it seems that this build is starting to lose steam, people are starting to be very "sneaky" with thier probes, on a map like Typhoon it is so hard to find it in time since there are a million places it can hide so you have to split your Stalkers, but if it drops a pylon then you can't DPS it down fast enough since your stalkers are spread out
Then you have players who cut a ton (well mostly their first Zealot) and build 3/4 Pylons at your ramp, if you don't cancel your robo, pull probes off your 2nd gas and drop 2 more gates you seem to die, but thankfully if you do it seems you can win since their first few warpins are delayed a bit and they don't quite have the money to warpin from all 4gates at once
On March 06 2011 15:50 Dommk wrote: Maybe it is just me, but it seems that this build is starting to lose steam, people are starting to be very "sneaky" with thier probes, on a map like Typhoon it is so hard to find it in time since there are a million places it can hide so you have to split your Stalkers, but if it drops a pylon then you can't DPS it down fast enough since your stalkers are spread out
Then you have players who cut a ton (well mostly their first Zealot) and build 3/4 Pylons at your ramp, if you don't cancel your robo, pull probes off your 2nd gas and drop 2 more gates you seem to die, but thankfully if you do it seems you can win since their first few warpins are delayed a bit and they don't quite have the money to warpin from all 4gates at once
I would like to see a replay, but judging from what you said they sound rather vulnerable to your initial stalkers that come out, so I don't know why you're letting a probe even get to your ramp to lay down the pylons.
On March 06 2011 15:50 Dommk wrote: Maybe it is just me, but it seems that this build is starting to lose steam, people are starting to be very "sneaky" with thier probes, on a map like Typhoon it is so hard to find it in time since there are a million places it can hide so you have to split your Stalkers, but if it drops a pylon then you can't DPS it down fast enough since your stalkers are spread out
Then you have players who cut a ton (well mostly their first Zealot) and build 3/4 Pylons at your ramp, if you don't cancel your robo, pull probes off your 2nd gas and drop 2 more gates you seem to die, but thankfully if you do it seems you can win since their first few warpins are delayed a bit and they don't quite have the money to warpin from all 4gates at once
I would like to see a replay, but judging from what you said they sound rather vulnerable to your initial stalkers that come out, so I don't know why you're letting a probe even get to your ramp to lay down the pylons.
It happened to Minigun while he was streaming. It happens during the time after you have checked your base and start moving out to deny any probes, but a hidden probe sneaks in and it is too late. Some maps it isn't hard to stop, but others like Typhon/Xel'Naga there is a million different places where that one probe can hide. To be fair, both players have to be on the ball, you have to catch it and the 4gater has to time it right to dodge your Stalkers. You can stop it, that is for sure, but it is one of those things that will always catch you off guard once every so often and on maps like Xel'Naga/Typhon, there is an air on uncertainty on catching it, regardless of how focused you are
Great build. The four gate is the only build that most diamond and lower ranked players do. PvP has become a horrible match up for me, because of this fact. I just don't want to 4 gate, but every time i am waiting for my robo or sentry here he comes with his 4 gate climbing my ramp. If you are a protoss and see this i bet you think "OMG ... not again?!" I ll practice this build and use it, if anything i won't do the goddamn 4 gate and ruin nobody's day and also bore myself to death.
Has anyone done this build but used a blink stalker followup instead of robo? I feel this build works quite well for stopping the 4 gate (if the map is big enough) but since it is so easily scoutable and uses quite a bit of gas on non-tech (stalkers and sentry) it is always behind against another techer. For example against a 2 gate robo player you will be much later with colo and will have wasted way more gas. You might have started to collect gas a bit earlier but that still doesn't make up for that. Also the build cuts a fair amount of probes.
I feel that if it follows up with blink stalkers instead the build gets much stronger, blink stalkers are great on the maps where this build shines anywy (large maps) and then the massive amount of gas into stalkers isn't as much off a waste. It just doesn't make sense to follow this up with robo play imo. The only weakness of not following up with robo would be DT but that really isn't much of a problem. You can simply make a forge and if DT come you can just FF the ramp to buy time for a cannon, since your stalkers see the DT coming in time anyways.
On March 13 2011 01:56 Mesha wrote: Great build. The four gate is the only build that most diamond and lower ranked players do. PvP has become a horrible match up for me, because of this fact. I just don't want to 4 gate, but every time i am waiting for my robo or sentry here he comes with his 4 gate climbing my ramp. If you are a protoss and see this i bet you think "OMG ... not again?!" I ll practice this build and use it, if anything i won't do the goddamn 4 gate and ruin nobody's day and also bore myself to death.
It doesn't get better the higher you go -__- Getting 4gated by someone who has amazing micro like Kiwikaki is probably the most stressful thing that can happen, even if you are 4gating yourself
Has anyone done this build but used a blink stalker followup instead of robo? I feel this build works quite well for stopping the 4 gate (if the map is big enough) but since it is so easily scoutable and uses quite a bit of gas on non-tech (stalkers and sentry) it is always behind against another techer.
You don't have to follow this build right down to every unit. If there is no sign of aggresion and/or you see them get double gas then just not make that Sentry/Immortal. You can be quite greedy with this build.
On March 16 2011 02:11 Markwerf wrote: Has anyone done this build but used a blink stalker followup instead of robo? I feel this build works quite well for stopping the 4 gate (if the map is big enough) but since it is so easily scoutable and uses quite a bit of gas on non-tech (stalkers and sentry) it is always behind against another techer. For example against a 2 gate robo player you will be much later with colo and will have wasted way more gas. You might have started to collect gas a bit earlier but that still doesn't make up for that. Also the build cuts a fair amount of probes.
I feel that if it follows up with blink stalkers instead the build gets much stronger, blink stalkers are great on the maps where this build shines anywy (large maps) and then the massive amount of gas into stalkers isn't as much off a waste. It just doesn't make sense to follow this up with robo play imo. The only weakness of not following up with robo would be DT but that really isn't much of a problem. You can simply make a forge and if DT come you can just FF the ramp to buy time for a cannon, since your stalkers see the DT coming in time anyways.
It isn't always behind. If you watched the GSL match that YongHwa played, he went for a blind support bay before his observer spotted blink. Once he saw the other guy going blink he went blink himself, and the immortals + blink made his army overall much stronger than just a rabble of blink stalkers. I did this once against lagrangian (iamke55 on TL) and won pretty convincingly.
The blind robotics facility gets you colossus so fast that you'll be able to survive a two colossus push from the enemy even if they went for a 1 gate robotics. Plus if they go for one gate robotics you should be able to deal a lot of damage with your first three stalkers, making a 1 gate robo very risky.
You just have to know what to do once your observer is out.
Has anybody done any extensive testing as to whether or not it's viable to go Stargate instead of Robo if your opponent decides to go 3 Gate Robo after spotting the 3 Stalker build (which is fairly easy to identify).
I've tried it a handful of times and had mixed success but as a Random player who picks Zerg half the time I don't get a whole lot of experience in PvP. But I, like a lot of other people, hate when it boils down to 4 Gate vs 4 Gate.
Thanks for compiling this Cecil it's helped me many a time!
Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
On March 22 2011 13:08 HolyArrow wrote: Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
When very high level players play, they need to keep information hidden from one another. If one player goes for a 3 Stalker opening like this one, the other may be able to expoit it somehow due to the inability to prevent scouting for a good period of time. Short answer: They either don't know about it, or just prefer something else.
On March 22 2011 13:08 HolyArrow wrote: Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
When very high level players play, they need to keep information hidden from one another. If one player goes for a 3 Stalker opening like this one, the other may be able to expoit it somehow due to the inability to prevent scouting for a good period of time. Short answer: They either don't know about it, or just prefer something else.
Yeah, 3-stalker build is VERY easy to scout, and when I spot it and am going 3-stalker myself, it's very easy to augment my build so I can beat his unit composition.
On March 22 2011 13:08 HolyArrow wrote: Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
When very high level players play, they need to keep information hidden from one another. If one player goes for a 3 Stalker opening like this one, the other may be able to expoit it somehow due to the inability to prevent scouting for a good period of time. Short answer: They either don't know about it, or just prefer something else.
Yeah, 3-stalker build is VERY easy to scout, and when I spot it and am going 3-stalker myself, it's very easy to augment my build so I can beat his unit composition.
I'm not believing that you can beat a triple stalker unless you go triple stalker + probe.
On March 22 2011 13:08 HolyArrow wrote: Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
When very high level players play, they need to keep information hidden from one another. If one player goes for a 3 Stalker opening like this one, the other may be able to expoit it somehow due to the inability to prevent scouting for a good period of time. Short answer: They either don't know about it, or just prefer something else.
Yeah, 3-stalker build is VERY easy to scout, and when I spot it and am going 3-stalker myself, it's very easy to augment my build so I can beat his unit composition.
On March 22 2011 13:08 HolyArrow wrote: Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
When very high level players play, they need to keep information hidden from one another. If one player goes for a 3 Stalker opening like this one, the other may be able to expoit it somehow due to the inability to prevent scouting for a good period of time. Short answer: They either don't know about it, or just prefer something else.
Yeah, 3-stalker build is VERY easy to scout, and when I spot it and am going 3-stalker myself, it's very easy to augment my build so I can beat his unit composition.
I'm not believing that you can beat a triple stalker unless you go triple stalker + probe.
Cut a stalker, CB an immortal out. If he pushes up the ramp, pull probes. Get a third gate later than you usually would, and win with faster tech.
On March 22 2011 13:08 HolyArrow wrote: Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
When very high level players play, they need to keep information hidden from one another. If one player goes for a 3 Stalker opening like this one, the other may be able to expoit it somehow due to the inability to prevent scouting for a good period of time. Short answer: They either don't know about it, or just prefer something else.
Yeah, 3-stalker build is VERY easy to scout, and when I spot it and am going 3-stalker myself, it's very easy to augment my build so I can beat his unit composition.
I'm not believing that you can beat a triple stalker unless you go triple stalker + probe.
If he pushes up the ramp, pull probes.
I don't know, this sounds pretty risky and costly. I'm not really sold that an earlier Robo would equate to a win...
I was told the SotG exclaimed that the triple stalker build is flawed in that you cannot kill the probe in time to prevent scouting, thus it's exploitable with an earlier tech, but in all honesty a robo that early would sound like it in and of itself is exploitable, as the early robo is more than likely for rushing to colossus which results in very few stalkers; voidrays and phoenix are both air units. I'm sure the cast of SotG tested ground armies vs ground armies pretty in-depth, but I don't know if they tested Stargate tech or Blink followups from the 3 stalker player.
On March 22 2011 13:08 HolyArrow wrote: Anyone know the status of this build in the current metagame? I'm pretty excited to see that there's a good, solid, anti-4gate, macro-oriented build out there, but in watching the latest GSL, no Tosses seem to be using it in the PvP matches. What gives? Shouldn't it be a great counter to a 4gate if done right? Or are there flaws in it?
When very high level players play, they need to keep information hidden from one another. If one player goes for a 3 Stalker opening like this one, the other may be able to expoit it somehow due to the inability to prevent scouting for a good period of time. Short answer: They either don't know about it, or just prefer something else.
Yeah, 3-stalker build is VERY easy to scout, and when I spot it and am going 3-stalker myself, it's very easy to augment my build so I can beat his unit composition.
I'm not believing that you can beat a triple stalker unless you go triple stalker + probe.
If he pushes up the ramp, pull probes.
I don't know, this sounds pretty risky and costly. I'm not really sold that an earlier Robo would equate to a win...
I was told the SotG exclaimed that the triple stalker build is flawed in that you cannot kill the probe in time to prevent scouting, thus it's exploitable with an earlier tech, but in all honesty a robo that early would sound like it in and of itself is exploitable, as the early robo is more than likely for rushing to colossus which results in very few stalkers; voidrays and phoenix are both air units. I'm sure the cast of SotG tested ground armies vs ground armies pretty in-depth, but I don't know if they tested Stargate tech or Blink followups from the 3 stalker player.
It's probably just cuz I play at a lower level. (Diamond)
So far I've been able to FF successfully, snipe stalkers, and sometimes due to poor building placements, even snipe pylons/gates/core. When I snipe stalkers or the core, I'll go SG follow up with voids, other wise just harass to death with immo/stalker/sentry and obs until I can get a money FF and kill some units for free, then retreat while teching to Collo.
Looks to me like this opening is becoming a standard opening amongst professional players. I've added a good amount of sources to the original post; some VODs and replays have been added.
I've been using this a lot recently, thanks Cecil for posting this. It's becoming quite popular on ladder as well, which at least if nothing else makes pvp more enjoyable.
I started to hate this build, one un-scouted pylon and the entire thing falls apart. You also tell your opponent exactly what you are doing from the very start, I've watched a lot of my replays where I lose and in some of them you see the person who is 4gating just be as greedy as possible after he has driven out my probe because he knows exactly what I'm doing.
Maybe I need to mix it up a little, transition into a 4gate from the opening...I dunno
I think ambiguity is your biggest weapon in PvP, if the other guy knows what you are doing then, IMO, you give him a big advantage
You should link the games where it fails too. I think White-Ra failed twice to stop sanZenith from 4gating him during the WC for example, using the 3stalker opening. I feel like his immortal and sentries were late though, but maybe san just hit the perfect timing.
Still, it feels like it's not hard to circumvent the 3stalker build with a second probe as we saw san do.
On April 02 2011 17:00 truthless wrote: You should link the games where it fails too. I think White-Ra failed twice to stop sanZenith from 4gating him during the WC for example, using the 3stalker opening. I feel like his immortal and sentries were late though, but maybe san just hit the perfect timing.
Still, it feels like it's not hard to circumvent the 3stalker build with a second probe as we saw san do.
Well White-Ra didn't add on any tech at all, or even plan to get sentries. I think White-Ra was banking on out-producing San after surviving the initial dumping of resources into units from the enemy 4 Gate. However, this doesn't seem to work. I'm under the assumption you need to use your three Stalkers to get some sort of advantage over your opponent, and the three Stalkers only buy you time to do this. An advantage could be blink, or Sentries to take advantage of your ramp, or Immortals to deal crazy DPS.
What I have been trouble when doing this build is someone simply stealing gas after seeing 2 gateways go down. Stalkers alone take very long to take down the 2nd gas and without any easy ways to pressure quickly on bigger maps the other play can just do a robo build with faster gas and be quite a bit ahead in my opinion.
When gas doesn't get stolen the build is pretty sweet though, I prefer twilight council before robo all the time though opting to go with quick blink stalker play as a followup and then expanding, using a forge + cannon if i suspect DTs.
I don't like this build. If they use 2 probes for the proxy, 1 with z+s to look standard, the other sneaking around to the ramp, and manage to start two pylons at your ramp, you auto-lose. You don't have the DPS to kill the pylons and you don't have the chronoboost to get your WGs up in time to stay alive. This opening is 100% dependent on preventing a probe from getting near your ramp, and you can't always accomplish that.
On April 02 2011 21:05 Markwerf wrote: What I have been trouble when doing this build is someone simply stealing gas after seeing 2 gateways go down. Stalkers alone take very long to take down the 2nd gas and without any easy ways to pressure quickly on bigger maps the other play can just do a robo build with faster gas and be quite a bit ahead in my opinion.
When gas doesn't get stolen the build is pretty sweet though, I prefer twilight council before robo all the time though opting to go with quick blink stalker play as a followup and then expanding, using a forge + cannon if i suspect DTs.
I actually 13 gate then scout, and this gets you enough extra minerals to be able to get the second assimilator early without affecting the build at all. Before I figured this out, whenever I had my gas stolen I would get a zealot and delay the third stalker, thus being able to get warpgate on time, but not being able to get the sentry on time.
Have used this 3 stalker build many times today and done pretty well vs. protoss. In fact, won vs. a 4 gater when I accidentally overextended my stalkers and let him sneak a pylon in my base. The stalkers' mobility and damage they do to the early units is great. Even if they sneak a pylon in your base while you're out hunting it at least splits their army. Your stalkers can rush back to the base and help overpower the proxy units in your base.
Big fan. Thanks for this Cecil. It makes PvP much better.
On April 02 2011 23:39 kcdc wrote: I don't like this build. If they use 2 probes for the proxy, 1 with z+s to look standard, the other sneaking around to the ramp, and manage to start two pylons at your ramp, you auto-lose. You don't have the DPS to kill the pylons and you don't have the chronoboost to get your WGs up in time to stay alive. This opening is 100% dependent on preventing a probe from getting near your ramp, and you can't always accomplish that.
That's exacly what I ran into facing a mid-masters player with an 11gate version of 4warpgate. Sends 2 probes and sets up 3 warping proxy pylons where there is a little time lag between the proxy pylons finishing and warpgates ready to warp in. On maps where I couldn't see the second probe coming in ahead of time, the proxy pylons I was dpsing were canceled, and he had high-ground warpin from either his starting stalker or first unit warped in. Crucial initial timing where he's already up my ramp by the time I make a sentry to prevent that. I can post some replays of us practicing if someone doubts the efficacy of sending a hidden second probe to get up pylons unbeknown to the 3 stalkers.
I literally never won after playing 15 games with him unless I played *expecting* him to send a second probe and went off hunting for it. If this kind of play becomes widespread (I'm mid-masters), I will seriously be forced to ignore his army, kill his first probe, and go hunting for his second. There's nothing so frustrating as to see those 3 pylons go up, dpsed by my 3 stalkers, knowing I don't have the production yet to stop his first warpin from doing damage and taking my ramp.
This method of multiple proxy pylons this early might be considered a build-specific counter, because other methods of holding against 4warpgates do possess the needed units to dps down all those proxy pylons in time. So an opponent would be worse off just using this second probe as an all-encompassing method of circumventing 4gate counters since this build specifically is the only one suffering from the weakness.
On April 02 2011 23:39 kcdc wrote: I don't like this build. If they use 2 probes for the proxy, 1 with z+s to look standard, the other sneaking around to the ramp, and manage to start two pylons at your ramp, you auto-lose. You don't have the DPS to kill the pylons and you don't have the chronoboost to get your WGs up in time to stay alive. This opening is 100% dependent on preventing a probe from getting near your ramp, and you can't always accomplish that.
That's exacly what I ran into facing a mid-masters player with an 11gate version of 4warpgate. Sends 2 probes and sets up 3 warping proxy pylons where there is a little time lag between the proxy pylons finishing and warpgates ready to warp in. On maps where I couldn't see the second probe coming in ahead of time, the proxy pylons I was dpsing were canceled, and he had high-ground warpin from either his starting stalker or first unit warped in. Crucial initial timing where he's already up my ramp by the time I make a sentry to prevent that. I can post some replays of us practicing if someone doubts the efficacy of sending a hidden second probe to get up pylons unbeknown to the 3 stalkers.
I literally never won after playing 15 games with him unless I played *expecting* him to send a second probe and went off hunting for it. If this kind of play becomes widespread (I'm mid-masters), I will seriously be forced to ignore his army, kill his first probe, and go hunting for his second. There's nothing so frustrating as to see those 3 pylons go up, dpsed by my 3 stalkers, knowing I don't have the production yet to stop his first warpin from doing damage and taking my ramp.
This method of multiple proxy pylons this early might be considered a build-specific counter, because other methods of holding against 4warpgates do possess the needed units to dps down all those proxy pylons in time. So an opponent would be worse off just using this second probe as an all-encompassing method of circumventing 4gate counters since this build specifically is the only one suffering from the weakness.
Yeah, someone recently lost in a PvP match in GSL by something extremely similar in a really similar fashion. If you want to open like this, you need to do it cleverly. For example scouting after your gate so you can afford an earlier Zealot + Pylon thus delaying one of your Stalkers slightly. This is much harder to read than the original build in the OP.
With patch 1.4 and the immortal buff (and blink nerf), would this build be a better variant than the more recent 3stalker build (3gateways then robo) as opposed to this build that seems to be 2gates-robo-3rd gate? I know ppl have said this build is slightly outdated, but it still seems quite relevant and possibly even more potential with the patch?
EPT![[image loading]](http://oi52.tinypic.com/w8ninc.jpg)
will look into this closer
he couldnt stop the double proxy pylon at the bottom of his ramp with zealot warpins though.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188697.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188700.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr11/Cecil_Sunkure/Robo_Gateway.png)
![[image loading]](http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr11/Cecil_Sunkure/Robo_Gateway_3s.png)
