On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
you may be right, the issue is yonghwa scouted his opponent base and see 2nd gas and no zealot which means he realised it wouldnt be a 4 gate or at least not the offensiv one so past the 22 supply yonghwa plays it knowing it wont be offensiv 4 gate so it s cecil assuming what yonghwa would do to stop an hypothetic 4 gate as in the replay you see yonghwa going 22 pylone no asap immortal and especially a very late 3rd gate meaning this 3 rd gate is most likely yonghwa's response knowing it s likely there are an inc 3 gate blink
I spent the last 2 hours doing this build in yabot and then some custom games.
The optimal version goes...
2x chrono on nexus 1x chrono on stalker + 1x chrono on cybercore 1x chrono on next stalker from 1st gateway 1x chrono on stalker from newly completely gateway (2nd gateway) 1x chrono on warp gate by the time robo finishes you almost be able to chronoboost twice if need be.
Ive tried it a ton of different ways, but when i do it this way my warpgates finish at ~5:40-5:45 because of the 2x boost. The final chrono on warpgate actually should wear off almost perfectly in time with when the upgrade finishes.
Also, I wouldnt assume your probe is going to die, it should almost never die before its relevant to the build. Instead, I found the best results with cutting probes at 20. This is the same time you add the second gas. If you do this, theres no possible supply block with your 3 stalkers, which are really the crux of the build. Additionally, with the minerals you save you will be at 100 as soon as you start the third stalker anyways so you can put down a pylon and start back up probe production sooner. Since this build seems geared towards stopping the 1 gas 20 probe 4 gate.. I would say its perfectly fine to stop at 20 probes for a little bit to ensure you get those stalkers out ASAP to find their probe and 'probe escorts' as i call them. The sooner you find them the more likely this build is to work.
I really like it, its very precise and with all variations my robo goes down at pretty much exactly the 5 minute mark. I dont think this build will work well for beginners as its much harder to pull off than the 4 gate itself simply because it requires good multi-tasking to get the build crisp.
I did this optimal version in practice against AI. You can see how nicely the chronoboosts fit given my above method. You can also see how i have minerals for for the pylon immediately when starting the 3rd stalker. Obviously in a real game you'll be microing around, but with enough hand speed and awareness this is about as good as it gets for timing imo. Please review it and let me know if I've missed anything cecil.
Yeah I worked out the timings of this and come to very similar conclusions on chrono use, only difference is I don't chrono out the 2nd stalker since my 3rd stalker is started slightly after my 2nd, so I chrono my 3rd to have them both pop out at the same time. I don't find a need for an earlier 2nd since I use all 3 stalkers to harass the probe escort (my first stalker is used to check for proxies while waiting on the 2nd and 3rd).
People should realize that there's nothing really strange about the opening. It is simply an optimized build that gets out 3 stalkers ASAP to harass a probe escort. Anybody who was formulating a build to achieve this (optimized 3 stalker build w/o probe cuts) would have arrived at a very similar build order. That's how I figured it out months ago and have been using it ever since.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
It all depends on the situation. A 3 stalker opening is more flexible and safer since you have early map control and can confirm if they are in fact 4-gating or not much earlier and then react accordingly.
It's true there are some risks involved to intercept the probe escort, but it can be minimized to a great extent if you know what you're doing. I warp my sentry after my 3 stalkers in at my base and keep it there, and there should be no reason your stalkers miss the escort, so even if they do warp in units at a proxy you missed somewhere you have the sentry to stall and now his forces are split up. I would not say you are in a disadvantaged position in this scenario. Certainly there will be some growing pains involved learning such a read and react type of playstyle, but it is what ultimately makes good players good, rather than a 'sit back and hope he attacks you' playstyle.
And the whole max production capacity thing off X bases is much more applicable to a macro-oriented playstyle, not early pressure situation like it is in a 4-gate situation. I don't know how many times I've won by holding a 4-gate w/ 3-gates, being contained so I made a robo for a warp prism + a 4th gate, then just warped in 2 rounds of zealots in his base and GG right there. I had 4 gates and a robo in that scenario, so what? It is correct response. Warp Gates have a huge advantage in being able to be much more aggressive while robo play is more suited for a defensive, macro-style play.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
2 Gates and Robo has an accumulation of resources, and is just plain less flexible than 3. I don't care about discussing the kcdc thread in this thread. This build doesn't rely on killing the scout probe, like I said in the OP, it relies on forcing the proxy a good distance from your ramp. This is entirely possible and easy if you have three stalkers and he has a stalker and a zeal. People like you posting make me hate this entire forum. How about you actually go test the build out and use some replays to back up your claims. Or better yet, go watch the GSL and find a match that supports your claims. Saying IMYongHwa did something and so it therefor must be good for some reason, is much better than listening to a guy ramble in the SC2 Strategy forum of TL.
CecilSunkure is amazingly awesome and this build does seem to work very well vs zealot/stalker/probe, but how can you deal with a player who just hides his scouting probe somewhere to make a pylon instead of escorting it with the first zealot and stalker? Especially on larger maps.
On February 17 2011 10:56 iamke55 wrote: CecilSunkure is amazingly awesome and this build does seem to work very well vs zealot/stalker/probe, but how can you deal with a player who just hides his scouting probe somewhere to make a pylon instead of escorting it with the first zealot and stalker? Especially on larger maps.
At the moment the only answer I know of is to focus on getting a proxy pylon to be as far away from your ramp as possible. Think of using your stalkers as a way to achieve a priority list, with the list being this:
Force opponent's forward pylon back as far as possible
Kill off the enemy initial Zealot + Stalker or Probe
Kill off enemy forward Pylon
So if you do this instead of focusing on killing the probe you can absolutely survive. Them getting a pylon and 4 Gateing you isn't a problem, as you'll win as long as you have enough of a delay between their warpins and them running up your ramp due to your higher tier tech units. In this regard you want them to 4 Gate you as it will give you an advantage. The point I'm making is that you shouldn't think about killing off their proxy so much as giving yourself enough time to get a formidable force out and crush the 4 Gate.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
2 Gates and Robo has an accumulation of resources, and is just plain less flexible than 3. I don't care about discussing the kcdc thread in this thread. This build doesn't rely on killing the scout probe, like I said in the OP, it relies on forcing the proxy a good distance from your ramp. This is entirely possible and easy if you have three stalkers and he has a stalker and a zeal. People like you posting make me hate this entire forum. How about you actually go test the build out and use some replays to back up your claims. Or better yet, go watch the GSL and find a match that supports your claims. Saying IMYongHwa did something and so it therefor must be good for some reason, is much better than listening to a guy ramble in the SC2 Strategy forum of TL.
ugh you're just an idiot. 2 gates robo only has a tiny accumulation on a fully saturated base when you're not making pylons or probes. That situation is extremely rare though as you are either not nearly close to being saturated, when fighting off a 4 gate for example, or you are making pylons building up for some attack etc. Either way why should I listen to someone who takes 1 VOD off a game that doesnt include a 4 gate at all and then tries to conclude the same build is good against 4 gates as well and needs 3 gates... It is just retarded and your comment about you hating the forums because of me is mutual. Your suggestions in other topics have consistently been poor so no need for me to even bother with you.
On February 16 2011 03:55 traca wrote: good point Mark though some may think 3 gates can warp 3 guys whereas 2 gates can warp 2 guys
Not to mention YongHwa himself made three gates. I'm sure he knows better.
There is no basis for assuming that 3 gates is better because some pro did it. 2 gates and 1 robo produces more then you can afford on 1 base so there is just no reason to go with 3 gates. It only leads to LESS units then 3 gates.
Only if you somehow have the robo idle, ie. you don't want to produce non stop chronoboosted immortals if needed, is the 3rd gate useful. I don't see why you would want this though, immortals are quite good against 4 gate rushes as they can focus down stalkers really quick.
Overall I think this build is just less good then the recently posted 2 gate 1 robo by kcdc. That build doesn't rely as much on things that can easily go wrong, like having to find the proxy probe or having to delay them enough so your sentry can stall the ramp.
2 Gates and Robo has an accumulation of resources, and is just plain less flexible than 3. I don't care about discussing the kcdc thread in this thread. This build doesn't rely on killing the scout probe, like I said in the OP, it relies on forcing the proxy a good distance from your ramp. This is entirely possible and easy if you have three stalkers and he has a stalker and a zeal. People like you posting make me hate this entire forum. How about you actually go test the build out and use some replays to back up your claims. Or better yet, go watch the GSL and find a match that supports your claims. Saying IMYongHwa did something and so it therefor must be good for some reason, is much better than listening to a guy ramble in the SC2 Strategy forum of TL.
Either way why should I listen to someone who takes 1 VOD off a game that doesnt include a 4 gate at all and then tries to conclude the same build is good against 4 gates as well and needs 3 gates...
Because on the Korean server PvP is almost pure 4 Gate. So why would a top of the world Korean open with something other than 4 Gate on Lost Temple if it would die to the most common PvP build out there.
Maybe you should spend less time hating and actually testing the build. If you've tested it and have replays then post it and you can be constructive, but as is you're just flaming me and being a troll without actually contributing anything to it.
And obviously there's no need to waste your time with me. But you still do it by reading and posting in this thread. It's not like I forced you to read this.
Well I agree that 2 gate robo builds can hold off a 4 gate. Either by moving the proxy pylon as far back as possible with some early stalkers or just by getting the robo and then immortals really quickly.
This doesn't automatically mean 3 gates is needed though or even better. IMYonghwha realised there was no quick 4 gate coming so he most likely he already deviated from his build from that point onwards. 3 gates can be useful in other situations, for example when you don't actually have the intention to make non stop units but do want to be able to respond or when you don't want to make immortals (for perhaps a fear of a stargate build). Against a straight 4 gate 2 gate robo will just be strictly better then 3 gate robo though, you simply have 150 more in units as 2 gate robo WILL be producing a bit faster then a 20-24 probe economy will gather. That's all I wanted to say.
On February 17 2011 10:56 iamke55 wrote: CecilSunkure is amazingly awesome and this build does seem to work very well vs zealot/stalker/probe, but how can you deal with a player who just hides his scouting probe somewhere to make a pylon instead of escorting it with the first zealot and stalker? Especially on larger maps.
Try to think like them. if you were 4gating, where would you hide the pylon? And where is good nearby spots for a proxy?
Most maps only have 3-4 spots that are actually close enough for a proxy pylon to be dangerous, and 3 stalkers can keep them covered easily. In testing this build with a friend I found that if the reinforcement time for the newly warped in units from the 4gating player was any less than 5 seconds, I could still die to the 4gate even given perfect execution, but if I could force the pylon to be in a place with a longer reinforce time I would generally be ok.
Forcing the pylon can be done either by killing the probe and denying it completely, killing a nearby pylon, or even just be keeping your stalkers patrolling the potential close pylon spots so that he puts one further away to be safe.
Thanks Cecil and Dhalphir for the explanations. It all makes more sense now, I was just confused since all of the replays showed you either sniping the probe or the pylon. I just beat someone doing kcdc's build with this as he won't have enough ranged units to defend well against the 3 stalker poke, and my faster gas let me win the colossus war.
On February 17 2011 13:41 iamke55 wrote: Thanks Cecil and Dhalphir for the explanations. It all makes more sense now, I was just confused since all of the replays showed you either sniping the probe or the pylon. I just beat someone doing kcdc's build with this as he won't have enough ranged units to defend well against the 3 stalker poke, and my faster gas let me win the colossus war.
On February 17 2011 13:41 iamke55 wrote: Thanks Cecil and Dhalphir for the explanations. It all makes more sense now, I was just confused since all of the replays showed you either sniping the probe or the pylon. I just beat someone doing kcdc's build with this as he won't have enough ranged units to defend well against the 3 stalker poke, and my faster gas let me win the colossus war.
I was gonna mention that as a sideffect this build should do well against the KCDC opener due to its zealot heavy nature.
I would ignore Markwerf he's kind of notorious for posting on every protoss build thread and saying it won't work or posting on every XvP build and telling people that his protoss build can beat it and here's why. It gets old fast and its not really contributing in any way.
Looks like Artosis fully converted...thanks for the VoD will watch later... now stop compaigning against protoss
So 2 gates, chronoboost out 3 stalkers, then fake push, then robot, gates, and pylon, then sentry and immortals right ? That's all, why they have so complicated build order lol
On February 17 2011 14:05 hitman133 wrote: So 2 gates, chronoboost out 3 stalkers, then fake push, then robot, gates, and pylon, then sentry and immortals right ? That's all, why they have so complicated build order lol
Because when learning a new build its good to have a gameplan to follow so you can execute it crisply rather than just throwing it down any which way. The use to which you put those three stalkers is also important too so needs some explanation.
On February 17 2011 14:05 hitman133 wrote: So 2 gates, chronoboost out 3 stalkers, then fake push, then robot, gates, and pylon, then sentry and immortals right ? That's all, why they have so complicated build order lol
Because there's only a single optimal way to do it.
Edit: A single optimal way for the goal of stopping a 4 gate**
Edit; Also, it's not a fake push. Read the OP carefully to understand better.
EPT
