EPT[G] TvP - Almost full air strategy - Page 2
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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BaLoO-
France318 Posts
On February 05 2011 00:23 parn wrote: You must understand that my build is not a mid-game strategy. And I don't build X units so I have more Banshees and faster. As I've explained, Protoss army is, imo, the stronger on the ground, so why even fight Zealots/Sentries/Immortals/Colossus? Just fly and deal with Stalkers. I perfectly understood what you mean, i just told you that i disagree with you on the fact that a mix banshee + X is weak, i personnaly find it harder to counter as full air (and on top level i've seen deadly efficient mixes, never full air). But it's playable and strong, at least until a pretty high level. | ||
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parn
France296 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:21 infinity21 wrote: How about 6 phoenix at the back and Colo/zeal/few stalker at the front? Pretty cool, you've finally secured your base. | ||
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ReNhoSoft
Mexico69 Posts
Also, I think you could throw in one or two vikings instead of spamming turrets. The faster you can hunt observers, the greater your tactical advantage will be. | ||
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parn
France296 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:48 ReNhoSoft wrote: I have to agree with the OP. Banshees are amazing against protoss, not only for harassment but in the main army as well. I wanted to ask, how do you deal with super early voidray/phoenix harassment? Also, I think you could throw in one or two vikings instead of spamming turrets. The faster you can hunt observers, the greater your tactical advantage will be. That's also why i get an engeneering bay right after the 1st starport (read the OP!). Then, when i see the 1st voidray, i can in the meantime (in consequence of the mineral excess): - Build some turrets in my minerals - Build a bunker near minerals - Build a viking - Harass with my 4 marines and get some more (tho you should not, but it still helps to gain some time) You can check the first replay, my opponent went for it. Same with the 4 gate + 1 stargate rep (tho the Protoss was not really good). And I prefer turrets, because you can have Banshees AND Turrets, when you have to chose between Banshees OR Vikings, in early game at least. | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
On the other side of the spectrum, if Protoss FE its hard to FE yourself (become more vulnerable to attacks). By not expanding, killing workers is required to stay in the game as opposed to come out ahead and better protoss players will make 2 obs. So, I stopped doing what you are suggesting and go 1-1-1 marine/tank/raven and get a 2nd base. Then I churn out 3 more starports. The build can defend early aggression AND the tanks defend your base mid-game when your opponent decides to counter attack you. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:11 parn wrote: More vikings? I have 2/3 starports and also Marines coming. I can also build turrets here and there on the map, near your base, so i can retreat on those and stop your Phoenixes/Void/Obs counter harass. Who said i wanted to trade? And I can't focus obs? Easy with the range attack of Viks seriously. Lots of people did it to me, but unfortunately too late, as i've wrote again and again, it's not a mid-game strategy, it's an early game strategy. If you try to engage I got a really strong defense with bunkers + turrets + banshees + vikings. And of course if you produce mass obs, you don't have Immortals or Colossus, not so many i mean, so you're weaker on ground. Be serious, don't say that EMP is not good against Templars ... and again, you don't understand how I play it (maybe i'm not that clear). How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking. I don't say this is unbeatable, i say that it's totally viable, then you have to play it, master it, and win the game. Marines and medivacs won't give you mapcontrol. You have a superior harassment and you have a good defense with bunkers, but how do you plan on getting your 3rd? In a straight engagement, toss ground - as you have said it - is superior, especially when you invest that much in your air units. So this means you have to harass with your air force and there are multiple ways (as I have pointed out) to shut it down with two (or even one) stargate. Phoenix are faster than your air, will draw viking fire (good luck clicking on that translucent observer when there are mass stalker around and vikings). Your strategy is based on avoiding an open confrontation in the field. Either you harass his base or you describe him attacking your bunkers. You ask me: "How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking." By having 5+ Phoenix with 2 obs in the back and zealot/stalker/sentry in the front. Guardian shield trumps marines and Phoenix kill vikings with ease and then clean up the banshees. Let me ask you the other way round: How does your composition fare in an open confrontation against the toss? How do you prevent protoss from taking the map? | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
I've seen this a few times before in masters. It's pretty retarded hard to deal with if you do not counter it directly. The good thing is that against many terrans I have this irrational fear of the banshee-raven-mm timing push, so I get quick phoenixes out if I see lots of marines or some turtling action. The key is to establish air dominance before the terran player. Which is totally doable with the new phoenix build time. Just get them out early fly in his base, scout the starport-techlab and kill banshees as they come out / harass the mineral line. If he continues to commit to this airtech after you already have the air you enter the midgame with a strategic advantage. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:28 parn wrote: Pretty cool, you've finally secured your base. No, its a lot more than that. You will lose all your Vikings, all banshees that runs out of energy, and a good chunk of your rine force. How do you plan on defending his counter with 1-2 vikings at the most? | ||
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ReNhoSoft
Mexico69 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:54 parn wrote: That's also why i get an engeneering bay right after the 1st starport (read the OP!). Then, when i see the 1st voidray, i can in the meantime (in consequence of the mineral excess): - Build some turrets in my minerals - Build a bunker near minerals - Build a viking - Harass with my 4 marines and get some more (tho you should not, but it still helps to gain some time) You can check the first replay, my opponent went for it. Same with the 4 gate + 1 stargate rep (tho the Protoss was not really good). And I prefer turrets, because you can have Banshees AND Turrets, when you have to chose between Banshees OR Vikings, in early game at least. Alright, I'll check out the replays as soon as I have a chance. Have you encountered fast blink stalkers yet? That's the only strategy I can think of (aside from stargate) that could bypass your fortified choke. Specially with a proxy pylon for reinforcements. | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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parn
France296 Posts
On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: Marines and medivacs won't give you mapcontrol. I hate to say that but "have you checked the last day9" about how to deal with Whitera? He explained perfectly how dropships force the Protoss to turtle, and how strong it can be, because Protoss can't split his army. Check IEM finals game Sjow vs DuckloadRa on DQ. On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: You have a superior harassment and you have a good defense with bunkers, but how do you plan on getting your 3rd? Huh? Building a Command Center, fly it to my 3rd? Then if he attacks it, fly away and kill his main with Banshees? You can check the replay Stalkers only on Metalopolis, this is what happened. On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: In a straight engagement, toss ground - as you have said it - is superior, especially when you invest that much in your air units. So this means you have to harass with your air force and there are multiple ways (as I have pointed out) to shut it down with two (or even one) stargate. Phoenix are faster than your air, will draw viking fire (good luck clicking on that translucent observer when there are mass stalker around and vikings). Again, check replays (even if Protoss are not that good in those), you'll see that if you don't go for the 1 gate 1 stargate build you can't really have enough Phoenixes to "shut it down".I mean, you can't go air later (when you notice i'm going full air) and with fewer buildings (i got 3 starport, 2 labs + 1 reactor) and expect to deal with it so easily. About clicking obs, seriously that's not a big deal, i've played Counter Strike kinda high level for a couple of years, and i was able to hit smaller targets (heads) in a second or less. On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: Your strategy is based on avoiding an open confrontation in the field. Either you harass his base or you describe him attacking your bunkers. You ask me: "How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking." By having 5+ Phoenix with 2 obs in the back and zealot/stalker/sentry in the front. Guardian shield trumps marines and Phoenix kill vikings with ease and then clean up the banshees. I think we can't really talk about such things, it's all about in-game reactions, and how good was our macro, etc ... but I honeslty think i have the better mobility, that's happen in all my games. On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote: Let me ask you the other way round: How does your composition fare in an open confrontation against the toss? How do you prevent protoss from taking the map? Noone can answer your first question, once again you can't talk about those kind of thing here, "on paper", an SC2 game can't be summed up as "10 stalkers > 6 banshees". How does mutas fare in an open confrontation against the Toss? "How to prevent the protoss from taking the map?": How does he prevent me from taking the map? It's all about how the game goes, who scout the other's expos faster, who take the right decisions, who has the better macro. Let me repeat: i don't say this is unbeatable, of course. I say this is viable and strong. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
(its the same buildtime as voidrays!) but they got superior firepower 20dps and only costs (150/100) and are way more mobile than Voidrays. A charged voidray does against armored 26dps and 16 dps against light but costs 250/150 a Stalker costs 125/50 and only does fucking 7 dps against light. 10 dps against armored. a banshee kills a stalker in ~8 seconds a stalker kills a banshee in ~20 seconds the only cost efficient way to deal with Banshees is Phoenix! if you can get a critical mass of them, protoss is done for. Getting Air Upgrades as Terran would make this even better. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
A push with 4-5 banshees, a handful marines and a tank is almost impossible to stop for a protoss going 3gate robo. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:17 Brandus wrote: I remember TLO demolishing white-ra on jungle basin with this build. He won that with strategy... not a build... he also focused more on ravens. The reason he won was he secured the middle, not the fact that he built X or Y unit. I've gone against this build alot on the ladder and its reminiscent of a build NTT used to do back in the BETA and early release. Out of the 5 times i've seen the build/mass banshee with obs sniping comp I won 4 and the 5th ended in a draw. All 5 of those games have been absolutely ridiculous and non-standard... the type of game where I was saying to myself 'i swear to god if i lose this now im going to rage'. I found that the key is vying fair air dominance with phoenix while teching to templar. Once you get to templar... feedback is not the answer... storm is. The games got more hectic because i was feedbacking as much as I could and would run out of energy for storms. Storms keep the banshees moving and not DPSing. Getting phoenix or even void ray before teching to templar (even off 1 stargate) will force him to make more vikings and less banshees and hes making vikings out of tech labbed starports. Your goal isnt to win the battle for air dominance... you can't against terran... if he is committed to air you will not achieve air dominance. Your goal is to keep your observers alive through a battle while forcing him to build units that cant shoot anything BUT your observers without landing. Its really counterintuive. You can respond to this playstyle with any protoss opener that involves detection, such as 2 gate robo, but it will still be a difficult and obnoxious game that could go either way. My personal response to a fast tech labbed starport is always dropping a stargate... always. His ground army will be very very weak so you can get away with building phoenix or void ray. Since you've got your robo you use observers + phoenix to protect your economy. Since he has such a weak standing army, you can take an easy third and even 4th. Your phoenix + obs can protect alot of your bases at once, but the general theme is, protect your economy, increase your infrastructure, tech to storm + alot of gateways. No need for collosssus/immortals or even big air. When you get on alot of bases (and he has no way of preventing this really... at least i havent seen one yet) you will have the gas to mix in sentries and hallucinate to keep your observers alive longer. You are going to need several observers with your army. I usually bring at least 4 with a 5th positioned behind where the fight is going on so i can retreat to it. Just remember your goal is to get a decent amount of storm and gateway units like chargelots and blink stalkers. stalkers suck something fierce against banshees, but with storm softening them up and keeping them moving and not DPSing you will do alot of unanswered damage. Be prepared to say "where the fuck is my observer" alot while you're defending the harass/building sniping. Key point to my disorganized reply...you delay a bulky ground army (still build units from your gateways and get your early stalker counter up just dont feel rushed to go heavy into it right away) to secure your economy because he cant kill you with the shit he is building. The game i had a draw on, he just turtled up with mass turrets 2 seige tanks and his leftover vikings on an island in LT. I couldnt break it with 12 carriers, twice. First time i had a mothership and warped in a bunch of units as well onto the island... still couldnt break him. At that point the whole map was mined out. 1:50 minute game. I think this is a strong build but I think its really stoppable if the toss plays well. I think if both players are equal the toss should win this game 100% of the time, but most toss will react poorly to the harass. | ||
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KillerPlague
United States1386 Posts
the only problem that arises for me is how do you deal with fe, double stargate (phoenix into voids). most the time they dont get a robo or cannons so i can do a ton of damage and win that way, but if they do robo first and scout, then phoenix seem to trade more efficiently then do vikings...maybe i need upgrades? perhaps then i should just transition in to medivac/marines? not too sure, but a lot of toss avoid air anyways so its not too much of an issue | ||
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Touch
Canada475 Posts
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Meteora.GB
Canada2479 Posts
I think I'll give it a shot next time. I for the love of god hate dealing with Protoss and their Colossi. Might as well go all air. | ||
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IronWolf
South Africa315 Posts
On February 05 2011 00:01 Synystyr wrote: I'm glad people are starting to catch on that air play is how you deal with Protoss late game :D obs sniping is soooooo strong at this stage in the metagame that it's not even fair. I personally like to use Thors to kill obs. They have the same range as vikings, provide excellent ground support, don't waste Starport production cycles and force immortals, which makes your banshees all the more powerful. You should invest in 1-2 Ravens for your push, rather than scanning. The PDD + mobile detection has great synergy with your army, especially with your Thors to snipe. Now what I haven't seen here is, what do you do to win? What is your crushing blow? A mass Banshee/marine timing push with obs sniping? Harass and win through attrition and superior macro? This seems very harass based, what happens if it doesn't go well? What's your next plan of action? I have been using Synystr's air TvP mainly air buildfor the last few days. Working really well. I even started toying with a TvZ equivalent. Mainly using vikings / banshee / marine at the start to counter muta bling. I like the variety we are seeing in TvX these days. | ||
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