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I don't pretend to bring the new ultimate perfect build, i just think that it's a totally viable and a interesting way to play TvP differently than it uses to be.
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
#1 diamond here
Since a couple of weeks i'm using an "Almost full air" build in Terran vs Protoss, mainly based on Banshees / Vikings. I got a really good win ratio (~9/10 i think), meaning only a couple of loss which, in fact, has nothing to do with the strategy itself (for example 4 gates proxy + luck/unluck). I'll try here to write down all that I've learnt while practicing the BO so you can use it yourself with a (better) knowledge basis.
Why this build?
As many players/threads did, i've concluded that the Protoss army is basically ruling the ground once it reaches tier 2. It becomes really (really) hard to deal with that while, of course, being also prepared for the classic cheese library: 4 gates push all-in, 1 stargate void + 3 gates / robo all-in, full zealot speed all-in, etc ...
Banshees seemed a nice way to avoid all those problems. But as i tried different BO, i also noticed that Banshees + X units was not really worth it, except of course some kind of Marines, Medivac, Banshees, Raven all-in, but that's not my stuff. It often turned into something like:
6/8 banshees + MMM small ball + 1 raven VS 2 Colossus/immos + P ball = Banshees and stalkers trading, then MMM ball getting raped by the rest of P army. Beyong that, the Protoss newbie will just have to press "a" while you'll have to micro stimpack hit&run + banshees cloak + raven drone.
So i decided to work on that air-only build.
The basic scenario
1) Getting one starport Banshees/cloak upgrade AND engeneering bay right after it: your banshees are going to be your main unit, they are really strong against stalkers but even more while invisible, so you don't want observer to fly over your base that easily.
2) Harass with your first banshees, don't lose them, repair them, while expanding and adding another starport
3) Getting more and more banshees to harass harder: pick some stalkers, pylon, tech building, etc ... forcing the Protoss to turtle and build canons
4) Adding a third starport (or not) to produce vikings and start the observer sniping
5) Invest the extra minerals so you have 3 rax (2 reactors + 1 labs) going for marines upgraded + medivacs
6) Front attack with marines + banshees, or multi-tasking harass with Marines drops + Banshees/vik ball, you should be able to take your third in the meantime
Dealing with the 4gates all-in
As you go straight Banshee and few Marines, you're really weak in early game and you need to know what to be aware of while dealing with the dangerous though easy to spot (timing scan) 4 gates all-in; to survive:
- Build 1 or 2 helions,
- Build a second bunker and split your marines inside both
- Keep 3/4 scvs near your wall/bunkers to repair if you feel the hard push is coming
- Get the 1st banshee asap, delay Cloak upgrade and/or the second Banshee if needed for marines/helion/bunker/repair
- Once stabilized, you can head with 1 banshee to Protoss base, the shorter time your base is Bansheeless the better
![[image loading]](http://data.imagup.com/4/1111497731.jpg)
Turrets and Banshees are good friends
As you don't have any ground army in early (and very mid) game you rely on the Turrets / Cloaked banshees combo. Spam turrets as much as you can: build 2 on your ramp after your first Starport, then 3-4 on your natural while expanding. Here's the sequence to micro this combo well:
1) Stalkers start to attack your turrets, if obs is stupidly lost then just attack with Banshees, if not, go next step
2) Banshees fly over turrets and shoot stalkers, be ready to backoff
3) Stalkers attack banshees
4) Repair/rebuild turrets with scvs and hit and run with Banshees
5) Stalkers can't follow cloaked banshees if turrets are still standing so Stalkers have to backoff
6) Go step 1
Building turrets near enemy base is of course allowed, so you can deal with obs and air units while still harassing.
![[image loading]](http://data.imagup.com/4/1111497693.JPG)
Observer sniping
Once you have 6-8 banshees STOP MULE CALLS to save energy for scans and add 2 vikings to start harassing with observer sniping support, later you should always have 4 vikings (not less not more) to get the work done. Be careful with vikings, don't lose them, and if you can't manage to take observers down, fallback and try another harass raid from some other side of the Protoss base/expos: you have mobility, use it.
![[image loading]](http://data.imagup.com/5/1111497774.JPG)
Care for the suicide counter
The frustration that comes with the impossibility to attack those cloaked (or not) Banshees raping your base/units often precede a suicide attack also known as: "I won't die without losing all those useless units". That's why spamming bunkers and keeping 2 banshees in his base is important, especially when you see a lot of Zealots and Immortals.
Don't hesitate to bring back your fleet to defend if you think you won't be able to hold, try to kill a Nexus or the Robotic before you leave. But while coming back home verify (scan) that he's not waiting you on the road to get your uncloaked Banshees, this kind of stuff may cost you the game.
Watch for the archives
If the Protoss is bunkering while teching to mass Stalkers / Storm, you really need to get ghost EMP or your Banshees / Marines combo is going to get obliterated. Work on your micro to manage your army the right way, Marines and Banshees are going to stak as they quite have the same attack range, this get dangerous, here are my hotkeys for groups:
1 - Marines/Medivacs, "t" for stimpack
2 - Ghosts, "e" for EMP
3 - Banshees, "c" for cloak
4 - Orbitals, "c" for scans
To conclude
This strategy has nothing to do with the common 2 Barracks + Banshees, or Fast Expand to Banshees, or MMM ball + Banshees + Ravens. Here you are going for fast Banshees, a lots of Banshees, almost only Banshees. In fact i'm doing the opposite! While most Terrans go for MM first then add some Banshees, i go for Banshees first, then, later, add some Marines Medivac to finish the job / care for Phoenixes and Voids.
So you must understand that it is not a mid-game strategy, i don't build any X units to support (at least in early game) air so I have more Banshees, and faster. As I've explained, Protoss army is, imo, the strongest on the ground, so why even fight Zealots/Sentries/Immortals/Colossus?
Just fly and deal with Stalkers, your Marines will take care of the rest.
Replays:
3 Gates + 1 Stargate all-in (trash talk inside)
4 Gates + 1 Stargate all-in
4 Gates push
Stalkers only
Stalkers only(2)
Stalkers, Phoenix, Voids, Canons
Stalkers, Feedback
Hope you'll like it. Feel free to discuss and ask about.
Thank you for reading
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I've encountered this as zerg and it is extremely annoying, even more so because overseers are not cloaked. I've tried mass muta which worked okay, have to look out if they start adding ravens with hsm. Hydra infestor will take care of it though.
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The most annoying loss I've ever had was to a cloak banshee/raven/viking mix. 58 minutes, i had 5 bases and he had 2. unfortunately it wasn't until after the game I realize HTs were the way to beat it. he just kept sniping my observers and I was too hesitant to make mass cannons.
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If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build.
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On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build.
I have, but it works the same as ZvP with mutas: even if Protoss get 2-3 canons on each minerals field (which is heavy cost) you're still able to harass pylons, gates, lonesome units and have map control while the Protoss is turtling.
Add to this that killing 1/2 canons with 8 banshees takes no time.
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I'm glad people are starting to catch on that air play is how you deal with Protoss late game :D obs sniping is soooooo strong at this stage in the metagame that it's not even fair. I personally like to use Thors to kill obs. They have the same range as vikings, provide excellent ground support, don't waste Starport production cycles and force immortals, which makes your banshees all the more powerful.
You should invest in 1-2 Ravens for your push, rather than scanning. The PDD + mobile detection has great synergy with your army, especially with your Thors to snipe.
Now what I haven't seen here is, what do you do to win? What is your crushing blow? A mass Banshee/marine timing push with obs sniping? Harass and win through attrition and superior macro? This seems very harass based, what happens if it doesn't go well? What's your next plan of action?
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I've come up against this a couple of times and the way i dealt with it was to build mass Phoenix, I'm talking like 2 or 3 stargates churning them out constantly. This is far easier and faster than teching to HTs which takes forever. Also a robo pumping obs as well. The phoenix are also amazingly good for harrassment, and discouraging drops. But yer this a super annoying composition and can really wreak havoc because its just so mobile, especially if you have medivacs transporting all ur marines around as well. Can just strike anywhere.
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On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build.
If the protoss builds to many cannons, I think you can tech switch to siege tank/mmm faster than he can do anything about it, you should still have your banshee and vikings which will destroy any collosus play. I think the main threat is HT's or even the protoss going heavy air + stalkers. All that being said, it is theory craft at the moment and I will have to see what happens (as we all should) :D
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On February 05 2011 00:01 Synystyr wrote:
Now what I haven't seen here is, what do you do to win? What is your crushing blow? A mass Banshee/marine timing push with obs sniping? Harass and win through attrition and superior macro? This seems very harass based, what happens if it doesn't go well? What's your next plan of action?
Check replays, but most of the time here's how he game ends:
- I go with 6 banshees 2 vikings and snipe obs, kill his units or robotic facility, then he leaves
- I go with the same combo and he tries to counter to force me retreat, i kill 1 nexus before coming back, then hold his push easily while losing a bunker or a turret, then go back to his base again with even more banshees and he leaves
- He holds with phoenix or templar or stalkers/canons and he pushs with Banshees + Marines Medivacs, multi-tasking Banshees harass backdoor and Marines stimpack front, then it's over.
That kind of stuff.
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On February 04 2011 23:58 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build. I have, but it works the same as ZvP with mutas: even if Protoss get 2-3 canons on each minerals field (which is heavy cost) you're still able to harass pylons, gates, lonesome units and have map control while the Protoss is turtling. Add to this that killing 1/2 canons with 8 banshees takes no time.
Yea, i was thinking to myself that it was a dumb question 
Is a transition into BC possible or Banshee are really better?
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I played against this kind of build sometimes these days. The first game i was surprised and didn't went a good build against it, the second i just built 2 stargate and produced phoenixes, lots of phoenixes, i raped it quite easily. However, i was really better than the other guy (i'm currently around 2600 pts master EU). And produce a raven (not fast though), anyway !
Tbh this build isn't bad, but i really disagree with your opinion on Banshees + X, i feel it way stronger.
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On February 05 2011 00:14 phisku wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 23:58 parn wrote:On February 04 2011 23:53 phisku wrote:
If the protoss is smart he gonna add a lots of cannon and it's seem like you haven't experienced this case
but i deffinetly gonna try this build. I have, but it works the same as ZvP with mutas: even if Protoss get 2-3 canons on each minerals field (which is heavy cost) you're still able to harass pylons, gates, lonesome units and have map control while the Protoss is turtling. Add to this that killing 1/2 canons with 8 banshees takes no time. Yea, i was thinking to myself that it was a dumb question Is a transition into BC possible or Banshee are really better?
Battlecruisers are heavy cost, slow to build, slow to move and highly vulnerable to stalkers/templar. I wouldn't recommand this, or for fun if you have a decent advantage.
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On February 05 2011 00:18 BaLoO- wrote:
I played against this kind of build sometimes these days. The first game i was surprised and didn't went a good build against it, the second i just built 2 stargate and produced phoenixes, lots of phoenixes, i raped it quite easily. However, i was really better than the other guy (i'm currently around 2600 pts master EU). And produce a raven (not fast though), anyway !
Tbh this build isn't bad, but i really disagree with your opinion on Banshees + X, i feel it way stronger.
You must understand that my build is not a mid-game strategy. And I don't build X units so I have more Banshees and faster.
As I've explained, Protoss army is, imo, the stronger on the ground, so why even fight Zealots/Sentries/Immortals/Colossus?
Just fly and deal with Stalkers.
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it's clearly not viable, why? stalkers are cost efficient against all terran's air units (phoenix are too).
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On February 05 2011 00:40 Damador wrote:
it's clearly not viable, why? stalkers are cost efficient against all terran's air units (phoenix are too).
Please read before posting, thanks.
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So what do you do in case of opposing stargates?
Phoenix beat banshees and can trade cost for cost with vikings. Plus if he has a few phoenix in hovering around two obs, your vikings won't auto-kill the observer but instead target the phoenix. That means end of harassment and your ground army cannot compete against the toss.
There is a reason why one of the most dangerous toss endgame composition is colossus pheonix.
I have played with this composition alot (especially on scrap station where you can take the island and then hold on to air superiority) but after the initial surprise, this strategy loses to blink stalker (robo makes 3-5 observer and that is enough for toss to engage), templar tech and star gates.
Ghosts isn't the answer to templar tech, because your main strength is the mobility of your units, where the ghost is fairly slow and doesn't fly, so each obs that isn't part of the main army will spot him and cause him getting killed.
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On February 05 2011 00:40 Damador wrote:
it's clearly not viable, why? stalkers are cost efficient against all terran's air units (phoenix are too).
Phoenix are not cost efficient against BCs.
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I almost exclusively go Hellion drop into 2 port banshee against toss. (anything else is just about suicide midgame)
Then bring back my drop ship, fill it with 8 marines, build 2 vikings and a raven, and about 4-5 banshees and drop his main. Once im there I drop PDD and snipe the OBS. 9/10 its game over. If they manage to hold you off (usually by fast expo and a lot of units). Then you can harass both minerals lines and force cannons.
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On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
So what do you do in case of opposing stargates?
More vikings? I have 2/3 starports and also Marines coming. I can also build turrets here and there on the map, near your base, so i can retreat on those and stop your Phoenixes/Void/Obs counter harass.
On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Phoenix beat banshees and can trade cost for cost with vikings. Plus if he has a few phoenix in hovering around two obs, your vikings won't auto-kill the observer but instead target the phoenix. That means end of harassment and your ground army cannot compete against the toss.
Who said i wanted to trade? And I can't focus obs? Easy with the range attack of Viks seriously.
On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
I have played with this composition alot (especially on scrap station where you can take the island and then hold on to air superiority) but after the initial surprise, this strategy loses to blink stalker (robo makes 3-5 observer and that is enough for toss to engage), templar tech and star gates.
Lots of people did it to me, but unfortunately too late, as i've wrote again and again, it's not a mid-game strategy, it's an early game strategy. If you try to engage I got a really strong defense with bunkers + turrets + banshees + vikings. And of course if you produce mass obs, you don't have Immortals or Colossus, not so many i mean, so you're weaker on ground.
On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Ghosts isn't the answer to templar tech, because your main strength is the mobility of your units, where the ghost is fairly slow and doesn't fly, so each obs that isn't part of the main army will spot him and cause him getting killed.
Be serious, don't say that EMP is not good against Templars ... and again, you don't understand how I play it (maybe i'm not that clear). How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking.
I don't say this is unbeatable, i say that it's totally viable, then you have to play it, master it, and win the game.
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I remember TLO demolishing white-ra on jungle basin with this build.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
How about 6 phoenix at the back and Colo/zeal/few stalker at the front?
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On February 05 2011 00:23 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 00:18 BaLoO- wrote:
I played against this kind of build sometimes these days. The first game i was surprised and didn't went a good build against it, the second i just built 2 stargate and produced phoenixes, lots of phoenixes, i raped it quite easily. However, i was really better than the other guy (i'm currently around 2600 pts master EU). And produce a raven (not fast though), anyway !
Tbh this build isn't bad, but i really disagree with your opinion on Banshees + X, i feel it way stronger. You must understand that my build is not a mid-game strategy. And I don't build X units so I have more Banshees and faster. As I've explained, Protoss army is, imo, the stronger on the ground, so why even fight Zealots/Sentries/Immortals/Colossus? Just fly and deal with Stalkers.
I perfectly understood what you mean, i just told you that i disagree with you on the fact that a mix banshee + X is weak, i personnaly find it harder to counter as full air (and on top level i've seen deadly efficient mixes, never full air).
But it's playable and strong, at least until a pretty high level.
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On February 05 2011 01:21 infinity21 wrote:
How about 6 phoenix at the back and Colo/zeal/few stalker at the front?
Pretty cool, you've finally secured your base.
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I have to agree with the OP. Banshees are amazing against protoss, not only for harassment but in the main army as well. I wanted to ask, how do you deal with super early voidray/phoenix harassment?
Also, I think you could throw in one or two vikings instead of spamming turrets. The faster you can hunt observers, the greater your tactical advantage will be.
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On February 05 2011 01:48 ReNhoSoft wrote:
I have to agree with the OP. Banshees are amazing against protoss, not only for harassment but in the main army as well. I wanted to ask, how do you deal with super early voidray/phoenix harassment?
Also, I think you could throw in one or two vikings instead of spamming turrets. The faster you can hunt observers, the greater your tactical advantage will be.
That's also why i get an engeneering bay right after the 1st starport (read the OP!). Then, when i see the 1st voidray, i can in the meantime (in consequence of the mineral excess):
- Build some turrets in my minerals
- Build a bunker near minerals
- Build a viking
- Harass with my 4 marines and get some more (tho you should not, but it still helps to gain some time)
You can check the first replay, my opponent went for it. Same with the 4 gate + 1 stargate rep (tho the Protoss was not really good).
And I prefer turrets, because you can have Banshees AND Turrets, when you have to chose between Banshees OR Vikings, in early game at least.
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I use to do almost the exact same strategy. The problem is the early game. You gave the example of the 4gate, but that is really the weakest of the protoss builds. 3gate colossas or 3gate robo are really tough and you will only survive by the skin of your teeth. 1-1-1 + cloak is so large of an investment. Also, the 1base colossas is effective vs this as well.
On the other side of the spectrum, if Protoss FE its hard to FE yourself (become more vulnerable to attacks). By not expanding, killing workers is required to stay in the game as opposed to come out ahead and better protoss players will make 2 obs.
So, I stopped doing what you are suggesting and go 1-1-1 marine/tank/raven and get a 2nd base. Then I churn out 3 more starports. The build can defend early aggression AND the tanks defend your base mid-game when your opponent decides to counter attack you.
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On February 05 2011 01:11 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
So what do you do in case of opposing stargates?
More vikings? I have 2/3 starports and also Marines coming. I can also build turrets here and there on the map, near your base, so i can retreat on those and stop your Phoenixes/Void/Obs counter harass. Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Phoenix beat banshees and can trade cost for cost with vikings. Plus if he has a few phoenix in hovering around two obs, your vikings won't auto-kill the observer but instead target the phoenix. That means end of harassment and your ground army cannot compete against the toss.
Who said i wanted to trade? And I can't focus obs? Easy with the range attack of Viks seriously. Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
I have played with this composition alot (especially on scrap station where you can take the island and then hold on to air superiority) but after the initial surprise, this strategy loses to blink stalker (robo makes 3-5 observer and that is enough for toss to engage), templar tech and star gates.
Lots of people did it to me, but unfortunately too late, as i've wrote again and again, it's not a mid-game strategy, it's an early game strategy. If you try to engage I got a really strong defense with bunkers + turrets + banshees + vikings. And of course if you produce mass obs, you don't have Immortals or Colossus, not so many i mean, so you're weaker on ground. Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 00:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Ghosts isn't the answer to templar tech, because your main strength is the mobility of your units, where the ghost is fairly slow and doesn't fly, so each obs that isn't part of the main army will spot him and cause him getting killed. Be serious, don't say that EMP is not good against Templars ... and again, you don't understand how I play it (maybe i'm not that clear). How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking. I don't say this is unbeatable, i say that it's totally viable, then you have to play it, master it, and win the game.
Marines and medivacs won't give you mapcontrol. You have a superior harassment and you have a good defense with bunkers, but how do you plan on getting your 3rd? In a straight engagement, toss ground - as you have said it - is superior, especially when you invest that much in your air units. So this means you have to harass with your air force and there are multiple ways (as I have pointed out) to shut it down with two (or even one) stargate. Phoenix are faster than your air, will draw viking fire (good luck clicking on that translucent observer when there are mass stalker around and vikings).
Your strategy is based on avoiding an open confrontation in the field. Either you harass his base or you describe him attacking your bunkers.
You ask me:
"How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking."
By having 5+ Phoenix with 2 obs in the back and zealot/stalker/sentry in the front. Guardian shield trumps marines and Phoenix kill vikings with ease and then clean up the banshees.
Let me ask you the other way round:
How does your composition fare in an open confrontation against the toss? How do you prevent protoss from taking the map?
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2700 point masters - Viking Kappa.
I've seen this a few times before in masters. It's pretty retarded hard to deal with if you do not counter it directly. The good thing is that against many terrans I have this irrational fear of the banshee-raven-mm timing push, so I get quick phoenixes out if I see lots of marines or some turtling action.
The key is to establish air dominance before the terran player. Which is totally doable with the new phoenix build time. Just get them out early fly in his base, scout the starport-techlab and kill banshees as they come out / harass the mineral line. If he continues to commit to this airtech after you already have the air you enter the midgame with a strategic advantage.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 05 2011 01:28 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 01:21 infinity21 wrote:
How about 6 phoenix at the back and Colo/zeal/few stalker at the front? Pretty cool, you've finally secured your base.
No, its a lot more than that. You will lose all your Vikings, all banshees that runs out of energy, and a good chunk of your rine force. How do you plan on defending his counter with 1-2 vikings at the most?
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On February 05 2011 01:54 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 01:48 ReNhoSoft wrote:
I have to agree with the OP. Banshees are amazing against protoss, not only for harassment but in the main army as well. I wanted to ask, how do you deal with super early voidray/phoenix harassment?
Also, I think you could throw in one or two vikings instead of spamming turrets. The faster you can hunt observers, the greater your tactical advantage will be. That's also why i get an engeneering bay right after the 1st starport (read the OP!). Then, when i see the 1st voidray, i can in the meantime (in consequence of the mineral excess): - Build some turrets in my minerals - Build a bunker near minerals - Build a viking - Harass with my 4 marines and get some more (tho you should not, but it still helps to gain some time) You can check the first replay, my opponent went for it. Same with the 4 gate + 1 stargate rep (tho the Protoss was not really good). And I prefer turrets, because you can have Banshees AND Turrets, when you have to chose between Banshees OR Vikings, in early game at least.
Alright, I'll check out the replays as soon as I have a chance. Have you encountered fast blink stalkers yet? That's the only strategy I can think of (aside from stargate) that could bypass your fortified choke. Specially with a proxy pylon for reinforcements.
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Not able to downloaad it...can u upload them in a normal sc2 rep site please..
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This build although a bit of a variation isnt really new. I think it used to be called synsters anti collosus build. Smart protoss build extra obs and they let the obs hang back behind their army before bringing them in and make infinite stalkers. Problem is while your vikings are looking for those obs the stalkers just kill the vikings and then you cant get the remaining obs and your screwed.
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On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
Marines and medivacs won't give you mapcontrol.
I hate to say that but "have you checked the last day9" about how to deal with Whitera? He explained perfectly how dropships force the Protoss to turtle, and how strong it can be, because Protoss can't split his army. Check IEM finals game Sjow vs DuckloadRa on DQ.
On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
You have a superior harassment and you have a good defense with bunkers, but how do you plan on getting your 3rd?
Huh? Building a Command Center, fly it to my 3rd? Then if he attacks it, fly away and kill his main with Banshees? You can check the replay Stalkers only on Metalopolis, this is what happened.
On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
In a straight engagement, toss ground - as you have said it - is superior, especially when you invest that much in your air units. So this means you have to harass with your air force and there are multiple ways (as I have pointed out) to shut it down with two (or even one) stargate. Phoenix are faster than your air, will draw viking fire (good luck clicking on that translucent observer when there are mass stalker around and vikings).
Again, check replays (even if Protoss are not that good in those), you'll see that if you don't go for the 1 gate 1 stargate build you can't really have enough Phoenixes to "shut it down".I mean, you can't go air later (when you notice i'm going full air) and with fewer buildings (i got 3 starport, 2 labs + 1 reactor) and expect to deal with it so easily.
About clicking obs, seriously that's not a big deal, i've played Counter Strike kinda high level for a couple of years, and i was able to hit smaller targets (heads) in a second or less.
On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
Your strategy is based on avoiding an open confrontation in the field. Either you harass his base or you describe him attacking your bunkers.
You ask me:
"How do you deal with 10 banshees + 4 vikings backdoor + 20 Marines medivac front door, both having strong mobility (fly + stimpack/drop)? It's all about multi tasking."
By having 5+ Phoenix with 2 obs in the back and zealot/stalker/sentry in the front. Guardian shield trumps marines and Phoenix kill vikings with ease and then clean up the banshees.
I think we can't really talk about such things, it's all about in-game reactions, and how good was our macro, etc ... but I honeslty think i have the better mobility, that's happen in all my games.
On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
Let me ask you the other way round:
How does your composition fare in an open confrontation against the toss? How do you prevent protoss from taking the map?
Noone can answer your first question, once again you can't talk about those kind of thing here, "on paper", an SC2 game can't be summed up as "10 stalkers > 6 banshees". How does mutas fare in an open confrontation against the Toss?
"How to prevent the protoss from taking the map?": How does he prevent me from taking the map? It's all about how the game goes, who scout the other's expos faster, who take the right decisions, who has the better macro.
Let me repeat: i don't say this is unbeatable, of course. I say this is viable and strong.
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don't underestimate the DPS of a Banshee sure it has a high buildtime
(its the same buildtime as voidrays!)
but they got superior firepower 20dps and only costs (150/100) and are way more mobile than Voidrays. A charged voidray does against armored 26dps and 16 dps against light but costs 250/150
a Stalker costs 125/50 and only does fucking 7 dps against light. 10 dps against armored.
a banshee kills a stalker in ~8 seconds
a stalker kills a banshee in ~20 seconds
the only cost efficient way to deal with Banshees is Phoenix!
if you can get a critical mass of them, protoss is done for.
Getting Air Upgrades as Terran would make this even better.
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I found that once Terrans get like 4-6 banshees, even with a lot of stalkers, if it isn't scouted from the beginning, the DPS makes it almost impossible to stop.
A push with 4-5 banshees, a handful marines and a tank is almost impossible to stop for a protoss going 3gate robo.
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On February 05 2011 01:17 Brandus wrote:
I remember TLO demolishing white-ra on jungle basin with this build.
He won that with strategy... not a build... he also focused more on ravens. The reason he won was he secured the middle, not the fact that he built X or Y unit.
I've gone against this build alot on the ladder and its reminiscent of a build NTT used to do back in the BETA and early release. Out of the 5 times i've seen the build/mass banshee with obs sniping comp I won 4 and the 5th ended in a draw.
All 5 of those games have been absolutely ridiculous and non-standard... the type of game where I was saying to myself 'i swear to god if i lose this now im going to rage'. I found that the key is vying fair air dominance with phoenix while teching to templar. Once you get to templar... feedback is not the answer... storm is. The games got more hectic because i was feedbacking as much as I could and would run out of energy for storms. Storms keep the banshees moving and not DPSing. Getting phoenix or even void ray before teching to templar (even off 1 stargate) will force him to make more vikings and less banshees and hes making vikings out of tech labbed starports. Your goal isnt to win the battle for air dominance... you can't against terran... if he is committed to air you will not achieve air dominance. Your goal is to keep your observers alive through a battle while forcing him to build units that cant shoot anything BUT your observers without landing. Its really counterintuive.
You can respond to this playstyle with any protoss opener that involves detection, such as 2 gate robo, but it will still be a difficult and obnoxious game that could go either way. My personal response to a fast tech labbed starport is always dropping a stargate... always. His ground army will be very very weak so you can get away with building phoenix or void ray. Since you've got your robo you use observers + phoenix to protect your economy. Since he has such a weak standing army, you can take an easy third and even 4th. Your phoenix + obs can protect alot of your bases at once, but the general theme is, protect your economy, increase your infrastructure, tech to storm + alot of gateways. No need for collosssus/immortals or even big air. When you get on alot of bases (and he has no way of preventing this really... at least i havent seen one yet) you will have the gas to mix in sentries and hallucinate to keep your observers alive longer.
You are going to need several observers with your army. I usually bring at least 4 with a 5th positioned behind where the fight is going on so i can retreat to it. Just remember your goal is to get a decent amount of storm and gateway units like chargelots and blink stalkers. stalkers suck something fierce against banshees, but with storm softening them up and keeping them moving and not DPSing you will do alot of unanswered damage.
Be prepared to say "where the fuck is my observer" alot while you're defending the harass/building sniping.
Key point to my disorganized reply...you delay a bulky ground army (still build units from your gateways and get your early stalker counter up just dont feel rushed to go heavy into it right away) to secure your economy because he cant kill you with the shit he is building.
The game i had a draw on, he just turtled up with mass turrets 2 seige tanks and his leftover vikings on an island in LT. I couldnt break it with 12 carriers, twice. First time i had a mothership and warped in a bunch of units as well onto the island... still couldnt break him. At that point the whole map was mined out. 1:50 minute game.
I think this is a strong build but I think its really stoppable if the toss plays well. I think if both players are equal the toss should win this game 100% of the time, but most toss will react poorly to the harass.
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i've been telling my terran friends this for months! ive even beat them when we trade races, but they dismiss the idea saying "they didn't play protoss properly." if the protoss goes ground it forces tons of stalkers, which are not ideal vs banshees, and if you can get a few pdds in later it nullifies them entirely so you can snipe their main and back out. just a few vikings to spot obs are required.
the only problem that arises for me is how do you deal with fe, double stargate (phoenix into voids). most the time they dont get a robo or cannons so i can do a ton of damage and win that way, but if they do robo first and scout, then phoenix seem to trade more efficiently then do vikings...maybe i need upgrades? perhaps then i should just transition in to medivac/marines? not too sure, but a lot of toss avoid air anyways so its not too much of an issue
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Phoenix / Expand will rape this, which a lot of Protoss are doing these days.
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I think I've seen this similar build before. Because its almost entirely focused on the skies, it is definitely interesting and perhaps a Sky Terran sort of build, which are almost non-existent at the pro level scene.
I think I'll give it a shot next time. I for the love of god hate dealing with Protoss and their Colossi. Might as well go all air.
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On February 05 2011 00:01 Synystyr wrote:
I'm glad people are starting to catch on that air play is how you deal with Protoss late game :D obs sniping is soooooo strong at this stage in the metagame that it's not even fair. I personally like to use Thors to kill obs. They have the same range as vikings, provide excellent ground support, don't waste Starport production cycles and force immortals, which makes your banshees all the more powerful.
You should invest in 1-2 Ravens for your push, rather than scanning. The PDD + mobile detection has great synergy with your army, especially with your Thors to snipe.
Now what I haven't seen here is, what do you do to win? What is your crushing blow? A mass Banshee/marine timing push with obs sniping? Harass and win through attrition and superior macro? This seems very harass based, what happens if it doesn't go well? What's your next plan of action?
I have been using Synystr's air TvP mainly air buildfor the last few days. Working really well. I even started toying with a TvZ equivalent. Mainly using vikings / banshee / marine at the start to counter muta bling. I like the variety we are seeing in TvX these days.
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Very solid and good build to have in the hand book. I've used iEchoic's build many times against protoss with success; this sounds like it will be just as rewarding. Thanks alot
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So parn, have you lost even once when using strategy against Protoss?  I'd like to know the most effective way to deal with this air play, if you don't mind, haha.
EDIT: Without going 4gate or stalkers/voidray early on, of course.
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A few things...
you mention protoss has a huge arsenal of all ins... lol more often than not its T with the big long 1base all in.
I strongly suggest you never stop mule-ing and grab a raven. That's a lot of minerals you are burning, plus ravens are fantastic to shutting down the only ground counter that protoss really has to air (stalker)
to the others saying templar tech is too slow, i'll argue that in order to right banshee/raven you don't need either amulet OR storm, greatly reducing time needed
the main advantage T has in this situation is splitting the protoss resources between tech paths- He will have to devote gas to both observers and then templar and stalker as well
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On February 05 2011 04:49 DigitalisDestructi wrote:So parn, have you lost even once when using strategy against Protoss? I'd like to know the most effective way to deal with this air play, if you don't mind, haha. EDIT: Without going 4gate or stalkers/voidray early on, of course.
That may sounds stupid but, no, i don't remember any loss implying a classic play of the Protoss. I had a TONS of loss when i still was going mass Banshees AFTER fast expand, but not with this build. I also admit that I've never played against a Protoss going fast phoenix harass and being good at it. I think this strategy is very good to easily make your way through the Master league. Once there, you may face good Protoss and some kinds of complications 
On February 05 2011 05:40 Comprissent wrote:
A few things...
you mention protoss has a huge arsenal of all ins... lol more often than not its T with the big long 1base all in.
Yea and? As I've written, I don't use those Terran all-in strategies.
On February 05 2011 05:40 Comprissent wrote:
I strongly suggest you never stop mule-ing and grab a raven. That's a lot of minerals you are burning, plus ravens are fantastic to shutting down the only ground counter that protoss really has to air (stalker)
I will never understand people talking about losing minerals if not using Mules ... you don't lose any minerals, you just get those a little slower. Then about Raven, according to me those are too slow and break the mobility factor of this strategy.
On February 05 2011 05:40 Comprissent wrote:
the main advantage T has in this situation is splitting the protoss resources between tech paths- He will have to devote gas to both observers and then templar and stalker as well
Yep i agree, Protoss have to split many resources between Blink/Obs/Colossus/Stargates/Phoenix/Canons/ ... this is why I don't really approve people saying that you "just need to get some Phoenixes and it's over".
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I've used a variation of this...after I have ample gas, I still like to get tanks for defensive purposes in the late game.
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So, he can't go colossus? I mean, If you have like zealot sentry like liquidtyler this build would just be shit.
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On February 05 2011 02:10 Thrombozyt wrote:
Let me ask you the other way round:
How does your composition fare in an open confrontation against the toss? How do you prevent protoss from taking the map?
You make a good point. In my mass air strategy, I find phoenix to be the toughest counter. While this is only marginally related to the OP, my solution is to go heavy raven. I use mass PDD (after FE and dropping 3 starports) to dictate where I want to have the battle. It doesn't always work, but dropping 6 PDDs will usually make the toss army back off, allow me time to re-position my marines, or pull off a few banshees to harass.
The mass air philosophy is, imo, designed to ensure that an "open confrontation" never takes place because, as I have decided, like the OP, 2-base+ toss ground armies own my 2 base+ Terran army.
Map control/"taking the map" is not a given either as 3 banshees and 2 pdds can wreck a mineral line expansion if not a nexus relatively quickly without making the main Terran army too weak.
I realize the OP is not advising as much Raven play as I use, but I am offering this as a tweak to the strategy that, imo, "prevent[s] protoss from taking the map." Mass expanding with PFs after two bases are running is another way to prevent toss from taking the map.
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1. Regarding MULEs, you do "lose minerals" in the sense that queuing units "costs" you money. You lose "mineral opportunity" by not calling down a MULE, just as when you queue you pay the same in the end, but you pay an "opportunity cost". If minerals are not the bottleneck of your strategy, you can afford not to MULE, just as a Zerg can afford to skip some injects, if larvae do not constrain his build.
2. I believe early aggressive Phoenixes could be handled with 1-2 well-placed turrets. A turret kills a Phoenix faster than a Phoenix kills a Banshee, even without repair. The turret range upgrade might be helpful here. Of course, Phoenixes would make leaving your base very difficult and are probably still a good counter to this sort of play, forcing the Terran to make more Vikings.
A mid-game strategy might be to take a proxy expansion near the enemy base with a PF, bunkers and turrets, then harass from there. I mean, like the rock-protected 3rd on Steppes, or the Island on LT, or the short-cut path on Shakuras, or the side-most expansion on Xelnaga. You'd force the Protoss to either break his army on your PF or trade main bases, which you would almost certainly win.
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Being a Toss, I Faced this a few times, on close air Metal shit like that. Obs sniping is ridiculously strong, its not even fair.. They are high priority too so you don't even have to micro usually... Its pretty crazy
Oh btw, I scouted this and went phoenix too, but still can't do shit cuz of all the vikings and obs sniping stealth banshees just raped my probe count and I fell too far behind
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I watched the game on Steppes and I have to say well played. Your macro seemed to slip around the mid game, i would suggest using your map control to expand more. You ended up sinking minerals into marines later on which he probably wasn't expecting so that was pretty good. Perhaps it was because Steppes is small, I haven't seen the other replays yet. Keep it up :D
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In the game, "banshees stalkers canon phoenix" I think, when you attacked their main mineral line for the first time, you watched half your banshees die to fire before you retreated, and had cloak ready but didn't use it. Why was that?
Smart answer: because you didn't want him to know you had cloak available yet
Dumb answer: because you forgot it was ready
??
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On February 05 2011 12:05 Senorcuidado wrote:
I watched the game on Steppes and I have to say well played. Your macro seemed to slip around the mid game, i would suggest using your map control to expand more. You ended up sinking minerals into marines later on which he probably wasn't expecting so that was pretty good. Perhaps it was because Steppes is small, I haven't seen the other replays yet. Keep it up :D
Yea you're right, I remember playing horribly bad in that game, though I still won And if I remember well that was one of the first time I tried this strategy out, so nevermind.
On February 05 2011 14:28 nyc863 wrote:
In the game, "banshees stalkers canon phoenix" I think, when you attacked their main mineral line for the first time, you watched half your banshees die to fire before you retreated, and had cloak ready but didn't use it. Why was that?
Smart answer: because you didn't want him to know you had cloak available yet
Dumb answer: because you forgot it was ready
??
You're right too, I knew I had cloak available but was pretty sure he had obs over my Banshees (which was wrong) so i didn't wanted to waste the mana cost turning the cloak on.
Yep those are really good thread too, but in my opinion going FE or Rax-reactor really makes your Banshees harass slower (and weaker) to come. In my build you have to keep in mind that it allows you to easily counter the 1 gate / 1 stargate early harass (thanks to the early engeneering bay) and counter pressure right after. The weak point being that you don't add any reactor on the barrack and become really vulnerable in the first minutes of the game.
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EPT
