Meet the New ZERG BALL OF DEATH: THE ULTRA QUEENS! - Page 3

Immanency

United States82 Posts

February 04 2011 06:52 GMT

#41

This could actually be really good. Not broken-good like a 2rax, but good, solid, but is a bit gimmicky. It can be the zerg equivalent of a 4gate, only late-game only.

DiranMan

25 Posts

February 04 2011 07:05 GMT

#42

I am trying to to get to engame asap, but I can always pump tier1 tier2 just enough to deffend myself, dont forget that zerg low thiers is more cost effective and cheaper in gas than specially Protoss (before the ball gets big enough) 1collosi is manageable but 3 and above is a death sentence for zerg without the proper counter, so early pushes help alot to reduce the chance of a timing push just before your ultras pop. 2nd you can always go your normal build and transition to Ultra queens late game, I was just experimenting if zerg can 2 bases survive/win. any ground composition including banshees/Vrays will melt away unless they have HT/Ghost. (ghost in not common vs Zerg). even if they make these than their army has much less of other gas heavy units, so you can switch to mass roaches if you like. I rather transition To BL queen later if they go HT/Ghosts, as going BL first is even more dangerous than ultra, you can hold his timming push with just 2-3 ultras and 12 queens, but you cant with 2-3 BLs besides they take more time..
If toss goes imortal heavy than I increase the lings count and surroud. dont forget that ultras cancel FF too so he cant block your army. You can always change tactics as zerg way more easely than P/T. so you can adapt as the game goes on.
If you still doubt this build than I suggest you watch the army values during the replay and than try it yourself.

KidCurry

United States14 Posts

February 04 2011 07:30 GMT

#43

Lets say this is going up against a Protoss who has stargates and the gas to make whatever he wants. Now, you said you can't engage off the creep. So you're at the mercy of creep spread and your immobility. If this is scouted, and idk why 200/200 armies of ultras and queens wouldn't be, P transitions to Phoenix, lifts your queens and the army stomps the ultras. Not so easy to stop phoenixes. They can flank and Gbeam your queens easily.

This is a good strat if P decides to A-move blindly, or thinks his death ball is invincible. You may want to include some infestors to fungal growth and let the ultras go to work, or include some hydras for additional AA, but this severely cuts your ultra and queen count. Especially if you want enough queens to get good creep spread and transfuse.

Another problem is storm if you include other units such as hydras and lings. Because you can't be the aggressor, and are limited by the immobility you let P expand where ever as long as he keeps your creep in check. Immobility and a chance to annihilate the opponents' forces? Welcome to the world of Toss :D

Also, Terran is going to EMP you dead....you said it. I'd actually just And I don't have to feedback all your queens, just enough that you can't heal over and over and replenish, or enough that my air units win.

Jumbled

1543 Posts

February 04 2011 07:35 GMT

#44

On February 04 2011 16:30 KidCurry wrote:
Lets say this is going up against a Protoss who has stargates and the gas to make whatever he wants. Now, you said you can't engage off the creep. So you're at the mercy of creep spread and your immobility. If this is scouted, and idk why 200/200 armies of ultras and queens wouldn't be, P transitions to Phoenix, lifts your queens and the army stomps the ultras. Not so easy to stop phoenixes. They can flank and Gbeam your queens easily.

What army is going to stomp his ultras? The phoenixes would need to massively outnumber the queens for this to be effective, and that would not leave enough of anything to stop the ultras. That's not to say his build can't be scouted and countered - any build can be. But phoenixes are unlikely to help much here.

Saracen

United States5139 Posts

February 04 2011 07:44 GMT

#45

I do this in customs all the time. It's not good by any means, since all they have to do is fight off creep and get obs or kill you before you get the ultras out, which is a HUGE timing window. Basically, you can only do this if you're ahead from the early game. But it's fun to noob bash with mass queens + 1 hero ultra.

KidCurry

United States14 Posts

February 04 2011 07:47 GMT

#46

On February 04 2011 16:35 Jumbled wrote:What army is going to stomp his ultras? The phoenixes would need to massively outnumber the queens for this to be effective, and that would not leave enough of anything to stop the ultras. That's not to say his build can't be scouted and countered - any build can be. But phoenixes are unlikely to help much here.

They don't have to out number it. Equal or enough so that zerg doesn't have enough energy to transfuse.

As for the army, I'd use immortals, storm>archons, and colossi. Even after the queens are let down, you can GB again.

Big-t

Austria1351 Posts

February 04 2011 07:48 GMT

#47

OMG thats a nice one, I´ll try that.

But: If the T focusfires the ulis u can´t heal them. Will be only great if he just a-moves.

DiranMan

25 Posts

February 04 2011 09:29 GMT

#48

1- Yes your are bound to creep, but have you seen how fast 6 ultras take an expension and run before main army arrives? PF with all worker repair will fall in 5 seconds along with the workers, you just run back afterwards to your queens and heal while your spreading the creeps to his base. Ovis will turbocharge creepspread. andwith 20-24 queens. you dont need much time to get there.
2- You can fight right off the creep, if you send your ovis on top of his army.
3-Fungal is essantial against MM and blink stalkers. If they main army is a metal he can't kite you. and he will stand and fight, thinking he will smash you.
3- you can make ovi drops directly in his base while you nydus the back of his base, spread creep, destroy his base, before army arrives, fight him in his base, and if needed retreat through nydus if loosing or he decides to push to your base. You can sacrifice your ultras but not your queens if you wish. This works better in larger maps like lost temple.
4- All you skeptical arrogant Masters who still are not convince from a diamond player, have to give it a try before jumping to conclusion. I will happily give you a lesson or two in this strat (as long as you promise not to B-line HT/scout and counter the queens). I have beaten badly many master players with it. its not hard deffending early pushes and Toss/Terran happily expand if you let them. its fun destroying larger armies over and over and make him feel helpless. Note that this is a new strategy and most people will not know how to counter properly. my user name is DiranMan code 973 add me if ou wish.
5-about pheonix killing my queens.. right. you wana lift my 24 queens, and let your workers stomp my army... right...
6-Remember you can play anyway you want (Mutas/lings/banelings/roaches hydras) and transition to ultra queens late game, but my strat works best if he harasses you with banshee or Pheonix early, you will make tons of queens and he thinks your overeacting and will be happy, untill about the time of the first big fight.
7- Remember my strat works because pre minute 13-14 ( the ultra coming to stage) there will be no ball unmanageable by lings/roaches/spine/infestors + queens. it only gets out of hand without ultras when the ball is too big. ultra should be out unless he made you loose too much in the early harasses/pushes, at which point you already lost, not because your B-lining to ultras and you did not have enough when he pused you at 11-12 min.
8- if the opponnent try to harass engage early game, than all the better. as you will happilly trade your low tiers (low gas) army with his. elliminating completly the window where you are vunrable the most just before the ultras pop.
9- if the opponent focus fires your ultras, 1 half is army will not be shooting (getting in position) + they will overkill. in the bigger fights you should have around 12 ultras, by the time he kills your 4-6 ultras you should have killed enough so that they cant 1 shot u anymore (you can spam heal the focus fired ultra). + your lings will survive longer to slice through his army. remember you can click transfuse at least 8-10times a sec. effectively 1000-1250hp. it should cancel the damage output of the ennemy army. remember in the biggest fight you need 12 ultras + lings not because they can fight alltogether, but so you can afford to loose half and still have about the same output damage. as the fight goes on the fight will get easier. even if you traded armies than you have won. you can make a new army and smash his base. in previous strats your best bet is to trade your army with half of his (200/200) and make a new army to kill the rest.

Harbinger631

United States376 Posts

February 04 2011 12:20 GMT

#49

I think people need to ask themselves what their alternative is the protoss death ball? Roach/Hyrda/Corruptor? Forcefields completely wreck roach/hydra, and the Ultralisk solves this. Massing corruptor is dangerous because first VRs do quite well vs corruptors, and second, you could be left with a largely useless, expensive unit while you tech to broodlords.

I think this has a lot of promise. I watched some replays and he beat armies that had a food advantage on him (does this ever happen w/ roach/hydra corrupter?) and he wasn't even that great w/ the transfusion. The extra creep spread is awesome. Make some overseers and obs will have a tough time seeing anything w/ so many queens running around and tie up Collosus production.

It's an early strategy, but the way so many TL posters just trash new strategies is disheartening.

bech

Denmark162 Posts

February 04 2011 12:24 GMT

#50

haha I just tried this.. Albeit my opponent was pretty terrible (platinum player), I really felt like the Collosous ball was easy to handle for once. Even though he he had around 5(!) collosous! Im pretty sure that engagement wouldn't have gone so obviously in my favor if I'd gone with my usual Corrupter-based defense.

Ofcourse he responded by going mass immortal and HT, which killed it.. but naturally, I can counter that in one foul swoop of my mighty 6 hatcheries!

kckkryptonite

1126 Posts

February 04 2011 12:28 GMT

#51

I was surprised at how handily it took out the Terran's first push in the Tyr game and you did this with low APM and not-the-best macro/micro. I think people should try this before knocking it so hard. One flaw I can see right now is the lack of map control and mobility you'll have.

However, I like that having that much Queens means you won't have to worry about any air most T/P are willing to make and you can keep your Ultras alive for a long long time. This was a sexy post.

DiranMan

25 Posts

February 04 2011 12:45 GMT

#52

It's an early strategy, but the way so many TL posters just trash new strategies is disheartening.

I am sure that this tactic will be implemented with alot of players including the pros.
most will integrate it in their play style, it has huge potential, you just have to get confident with it. its not neccesarly a tactic to implement in every game, but against pure traditional armies (no HT or Ghost) it trashes the opposite army. It is particularly effective VS collossu/VR ball. previously if toss deffends well and makes the ball of death than its really over for Z. but not anymore..

kckkryptonite

1126 Posts

February 04 2011 12:59 GMT

#53

Okay here's my very first try. This was a master/diamond battle and there were parts where I felt a bit vulnerable before the Ultras came, but I could've gotten them a bit faster. The armor upgrades+ultra armor is reaaallly awesome.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134767-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna

Arcanewinds

United Kingdom197 Posts

February 04 2011 13:09 GMT

#54

Eh, someone tried this against me a couple days ago, didn't really work too well, I just got a ghost out when I saw him massing queens.

It was super late game, he was switching Ultra/Broodlord as Zerg usually do, but with mass queens and mass creep spread, masters level.

DiranMan

25 Posts

February 04 2011 13:13 GMT

#55

On February 04 2011 21:59 kckkryptonite wrote:
Okay here's my very first try. This was a master/diamond battle and there were parts where I felt a bit vulnerable before the Ultras came, but I could've gotten them a bit faster. The armor upgrades+ultra armor is reaaallly awesome.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134767-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna

Youd did ok for first time but not really correctly.

1- u need to get ultras at least 1 min earlier (no early armor attack upgrade, only after you start upgrading hive.
2- u need to get 4-5 infestors as soon as the infestor pit is ready. you need them to charge early. they can hold any aggretion together with your queen/ lings/roaches/splines. against terran fungal, against toss fungal +inf terran rock.
3- you need 4-6 spine crawlers to help deffend an all in.(remember ur queens can transfuse that as well.
4- upgrade ovi speed, divide them in 2 groups. send them on top their army to be able to fight just off creep..
5- your opponnent was really bad.
6-make 4-6 zerglings/ultra. make even more lings if they got more immortal.
7-u need fungal to stop blink.

TeH_Murmur

Canada11 Posts

February 04 2011 17:12 GMT

#56

This is interesting. I've used it with decent results in low diamond against Terrans. If they go for Siege Tank/Marine timing attacks, you basically die, but when they decide to play a macro game, it works decently well.

I prefer the "standard" ZvT, to be honest, but this is pretty funny/works well with the Funday Monday.

innoby

Ireland42 Posts

February 04 2011 17:31 GMT

#57

I don't know if you remember this from beta, but the queens used to have the same movement speed off creep as an unupgraded ultralisk, on the korean servers zerg were going for a 3-5queen/ultra rush, they could get it out in around 7minutes and it was difficult to get enough of an army to stop it, or enough air to kill it before it could ruin your base. Hence the reason the lair build time was upped a bit and queen speed off creep nerfed into the ground.

Sorry, but this is by no means a new idea.

mizU

United States12125 Posts

February 04 2011 17:59 GMT

#58

I played this before on PTR when I was fiddling around with toss.
I've only encountered this once though, and the zerg was turtling pretty hard. Then he just denied expos and teched to ultras by about 15 minutes.

Next thing I know mass queens and ultras are out. I tried to FF... oh wat. I had like 6 immortals out and a couple colossi as well as a decent amount of gateway units...

Transfuse imba.

GG.