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On February 05 2011 03:05 fishinguy wrote:
Oh well us terran players have quite simple solution : EMP. I suppose toss players can get HTs as well for feedback.
The thing is, ghosts don't KILL queens, and an emp won't take out more than 4 or 5, not to mention how worthless they are vs Ultralisks.
HT are good in that they kill queens, but they do more harm than good vs ultras, and gateway armies get rofl stomped by ultra/ling. Well, everything but mass blink stalkers, that is. I've destroyed many an ultra army with blink.
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Russian Federation76 Posts
sounds like its gona be an easy ghost emp counter or a raven flying around killing the creep so the queens cant go anywhere. it would definatly take a person by surprise but if he sees it im sure i could be hard counterd
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On February 05 2011 03:32 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 03:05 fishinguy wrote:
Oh well us terran players have quite simple solution : EMP. I suppose toss players can get HTs as well for feedback. The thing is, ghosts don't KILL queens, and an emp won't take out more than 4 or 5, not to mention how worthless they are vs Ultralisks. HT are good in that they kill queens, but they do more harm than good vs ultras, and gateway armies get rofl stomped by ultra/ling. Well, everything but mass blink stalkers, that is. I've destroyed many an ultra army with blink.
How are ghosts worthless against ultralisks? Sure they aren't the best but snipe ignores armor and with enough energy can do quite a bit of damage.
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Again, already used and fallen out of favor on the Korean servers, esp after queen move speed got nerfed.
Also Zealots + Sentry (assuming that toss is maxed out in armor and +1 shield) Ultras do 9damage (no attack upgrades) for the first 6 attacks, then only 6 damage for every attack after that, making zealots VERY tanky against ultras, since rushlots inevitably end up out front, this allows the protoss line to be held long enough for all those really nasty toss units to dish out a fucktonne of damage, in relative safety. I think you underestimate the damage output potential of a toss that has kept up with a zerg's macro long enough to make ultras a viable tech choice. Then there is this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187434
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On February 05 2011 03:43 Fargoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 03:32 Sm3agol wrote:On February 05 2011 03:05 fishinguy wrote:
Oh well us terran players have quite simple solution : EMP. I suppose toss players can get HTs as well for feedback. The thing is, ghosts don't KILL queens, and an emp won't take out more than 4 or 5, not to mention how worthless they are vs Ultralisks. HT are good in that they kill queens, but they do more harm than good vs ultras, and gateway armies get rofl stomped by ultra/ling. Well, everything but mass blink stalkers, that is. I've destroyed many an ultra army with blink. How are ghosts worthless against ultralisks? Sure they aren't the best but snipe ignores armor and with enough energy can do quite a bit of damage.
You'd need a crap load of ghosts to make that viable. 11 snipes to take down a single Ultralisk? And that's a full ghost, which you won't have if you're throwing emps all over their queens. You'd be way better off with tanks, which are cheaper and have AOE.
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Non-noob protoss can just go, oh my stalker/collosus got owned, time to make mass zealot/immortal. This build only works vs players that dont know how to deal with ultras. Also the protoss(first game) didnt even harass. He pushed out with 3 collosus hoping to kill you in the first place.
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United States1245 Posts
On February 04 2011 10:23 FinestHour wrote:
Queens are so good for their cost, in due time people will recognize how good they are for fighting and I'm sure we will see more of them on the frontline soon.
Have you ever been the guy who rolls Queens in a monobattle? Doesn't sound like you have.
Although I usually do get at leas 2 queens per hatch and have seen a lot of zergs doing the same. Its the healing power, the creep, the long range AA (goodbye medivacs) that really add some strength to the zerg ball.
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Looked at the replay and it looks really fun. Lately my games vs Terran were terrible, so I feel it is time to try something new 
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That was so cool! I wish I were zerg, so i could do that myself...
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Sounds like a good strategy to try for Day9's next Funday Monday.
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It's funny how the current trend in ZvP topics has been "I outmacro and outplay my toss opponent, but I can't beat Colo + VR compsition", now when somebody posts an armycomposition that stomps Colo + VR, all the zergs dismiss it as impossibility.
Non-noob protoss can just go, oh my stalker/collosus got owned, time to make mass zealot/immortal. This build only works vs players that dont know how to deal with ultras. Also the protoss(first game) didnt even harass. He pushed out with 3 collosus hoping to kill you in the first place.
Isn't forcing protoss to transition from his most generally effective armycomposition a very good thing for zerg, as with all solid strategies, you can transition out of this one too. Harrassing a zerg who goes for multiple queens is also extremely difficult, you got better creep spread, transfuse for crawlers/queens.
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since your sprea creep like crazy, adding in some spine crawlers could be a viable choice, no?
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On February 05 2011 06:32 Eschaton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 10:23 FinestHour wrote:
Queens are so good for their cost, in due time people will recognize how good they are for fighting and I'm sure we will see more of them on the frontline soon. Have you ever been the guy who rolls Queens in a monobattle? Doesn't sound like you have. Although I usually do get at leas 2 queens per hatch and have seen a lot of zergs doing the same. Its the healing power, the creep, the long range AA (goodbye medivacs) that really add some strength to the zerg ball.
Queens have low DPS, but their abilities are invaluable. The thing is, they're very cost-effective.
http://broodlings.com/dps.php
Queens don't cost gas nor larvae, so their DPS is quite decent for the cost.
Stalker have like 6.94 DPS compared to the queens 8 DPS, and the stalker costs 25 minerals less, but 50 more gas.
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On February 05 2011 08:46 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 06:32 Eschaton wrote:On February 04 2011 10:23 FinestHour wrote:
Queens are so good for their cost, in due time people will recognize how good they are for fighting and I'm sure we will see more of them on the frontline soon. Have you ever been the guy who rolls Queens in a monobattle? Doesn't sound like you have. Although I usually do get at leas 2 queens per hatch and have seen a lot of zergs doing the same. Its the healing power, the creep, the long range AA (goodbye medivacs) that really add some strength to the zerg ball. Queens have low DPS, but their abilities are invaluable. The thing is, they're very cost-effective. http://broodlings.com/dps.phpQueens don't cost gas nor larvae, so their DPS is quite decent for the cost. Stalker have like 6.94 DPS compared to the queens 8 DPS, and the stalker costs 25 minerals less, but 50 more gas.
The really promising thing about making multiple queens early game is that it doesn't interrupt your drone production, like every other zerg defensive unit. making defending 4gate with multiple queens and spines a breeze on good static defense maps like LT
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It's a strategy and, like any other, works against some things and fail to others. The point is - it seems to work against our worst toss/terran nightmare aka deathballs. And it seems so damn fun.
In the replay lots of resources are unspent and I think that overall the match could had gone many other ways, in examples if the toss went for stargate instead of straight colossi, there was no scout at all. I mean, to try this out I must first figure out how this will work in other situations, but it is a very good sensation to finally have a solution for the deathball problems. And to choke points. Until blizzard nerf queens cuz "this isn't what they're supposed to do in first place". :p
Let's make it work, shall we? ^~
PS: And hell, why not punish those protoss who straight up build that colossi ball. Cuz now we can.
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On February 05 2011 09:09 tehemperorer wrote:I just want to note that the classic Protoss deathball is falling out of favor and being replaced with a new kind of deathball that this Zerg deathball cannot deal with. This Zerg deathball is a little late to the party. New P deathball: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190094
That's for mostly late-game against the zerg deathball imo.
It's because void rays are great against ultras as well as immortals, and high templars can storm and quickly form power units: archons.
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I'm a huge advocate for any unorthodox strategy that makes use of previously thought to be unviable (or just really bad) units.
This is possibly one of them. Maybe not "tech straight to pure ultras and mass queens in that exact ratio", but it's the general idea that I like.
Keep it up OP.
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Nice post Diran! Lots of things to think about, and I hope you send a rep of this to Day9 for this upcoming funday monday. I'm always interested in new, fun and quirky builds that hold promise.
And to all you haters that are all, oh, well all he has to do is make the counter unit of mass ghost/maurader or mass immortal/templar...
Well, who the %&$^ goes ghost/maurader or immortal/templar vs zerg? No, we usually get either bio ball of marine/maruder/medivac, biomech of marine/tank, or pure mech of hellion thor tank viking or some other gas heavy crap. I hardly ever see ghosts, or mass mauraders.
immortal/templar?! Okay, so when his stalker ball toss players ALWAYS makes comes out at 175/200 with a few 5-6 collosi, sure, he'll have the supply to add in a few immortals and templar to hold it off...
You know, Hive teching with a spire and maybe muta harrass is another possibility, rather than infestors, might be viable in transition too, with queens to heal your harrassing mutas, and hive tech being assumed to be going for air. What's toss gonna do? Make stalkers. (I highly dout he'll go, ah mutas, better make immortals to prevent the inevitable ultras coming). What's terran gonna do? Make rines or thors, and several turrets (Again, I doubt he'll make ghosts/mauraders). Once you're ready, suicide some supply, make some spine crawlers, etc., and then make a round of 5-8 ultras, all coming out at the same time. Good luck to him responding to your ultras soon enough.
I like the idea, but I think the key is to stay alive with low tech harrass, while hard teching and macroing, and then suicide supply in some form or fashion and replace to 200 cap with ultras, all the while making queens, maybe burrowing them or putting them into a nydus(with a few exits to avoid a nydus-snipe crap-their-went-my-army-I'm-such-a-noob moment) to hide their presence if you're paranoid of templar/ghost counters, lol.
pfft, maurader/ghost and immortal/templar... who the &^%$ says, I know, I'm gonna hard tech the robo and templar archives and just mass those units if I see queens, or I'm so making ghosts and mauraders, all-in, he'll never give up his queen ultras and just transition to mass-muta to rape me... lololololol
In any case, gj Diran, just cheese all them haters man.
:D
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EPT
