Fellow zergs, what do you do when protoss/terran turtle and manage to make their ball of death? it’s usually gg specially against toss. Before you start flaming me know that I am a high Diamond Player who is fed from failing against death balls (specially toss ). I will offer you the ultimate zerg ball of death that can beat any traditional terran/toss ground composition. Yes Ultras! You will laugh at first, everybody knows that ultras are horrible, and melt like butter. But have no fear they have a secret weapon ready to be unleashed. Now lets analyze ultras. They have very high dps, very high hp, on the downside they are melee, bulky (bad ai) cant stay long enough in fight to deal enough damage. And once the front ones die they struggle to get to the front lines before dying horrifically. To deal with their downside, Blizard gave us the nurse queen! She can heal 125hp for mere 50energy. So total 500 hp/queen. So 1 queen can give 1 ultra another life! Not only that, but ultras are now were they are supposed to be: facing the enemy and causing mayhem none stop. Without queen not only you lose the second life but also the time lost ultras wondering aimlessly to find target and dying in the process. So effectively a queen quadruples every ultra-strength. You will find ultras on super steroids. With this strategy you can demolish practically bigger armies with smaller forces + you will have most of your ultras still there after the fight. It’s an absolute massacre. I have dealt with the deadly V-ray – Collossi combo 200 army with this strat loosing very few units. Just couple of queens. I would like to Call this strategy: Diran’s Ultra queens! Its crazy how effective it is.
Now to explain the units composition and positioning: -You need around 2 queens/ultra. Suppose you have 4-5 ultras you need at least 12 queens. If you have like 8-12 ultras than about 18-24 will do. -You need about 4-6 speedlings/ultra. Remember ultras are range 1, so they can attack behind speedlings for max damage per surface area. Too many will keep the ultras out of fight for important seconds. Without speedlings it will work with reduce efficiency. Beside speedlings will absorb most of the damage while your ultras and queen set into position. More on that later. -you need about 3-5 infestors. Infestors are core against MM or stalker specially so they can’t kite you of the creeps. Ultras off creep will lose all advantage (no heal) and die horribly. -you need to 1-2 groups of ovis with speed upgrade to turbocharge creep spread.
Next you need to be fighting on creep or right off the edge. Queens can’t follow ultras off creep so you need a good creep spread. If you don’t have than make 2 groups ovis each of 8-12 and send them to the middle followed by your queens and mass spread creep. If the enemy is near creep but not near enough you can send your ovi on top of them followed by ultras and behind them the queens. Fungal growth his army so he can’t run off creep and kite you, than select all your queens and spam transfuse on you ultras and watch them rip through hordes of enemies. Your opponent will most likely rage and cry ULTRAS OP! yes now they will fear the ultra, just as we have long feared the colossi balls and the thor balls. It will not be unusual to get several ultras in metamorph status.
You can even send them in ovis and deliver the package in the enemy base and cause great mayhem in their base while you creep spread. 2 ultras can hold the ramp with supercharged transfusion a very long time while the rest of you army trashes his base. You can use infestor for that matter too. If you buy enough time you might even open a space in his base so your ultras will fight much more efficiently. You can even wormhole his base mean time to escape if things don’t look good. Remember loosing your ultras is ok. But loosing your queens is much more unforgiving. Since queens need a lot of time to spam and even more to charge energy.
Pros of this strat: -Demolishes all traditional ground forces -ABSOLUTELY trashes the dreaded VR-Colossi ball. -can deal with banshees/Void rays/Phoenix with ease. and the transition is more smooth. -Once you get to the ultras you will see that it is not gas heavy, as opposed to the other zerg strats. -You can survive on 2 bases only (although not recommended) and even beat toss/terran who are 1 base ahead easily if they don’t get the right counter (more on that later) -don’t need much larva late game, so after a while you don’t inject anymore and let all your queens gather energy -air harass won’t bother you much, since you will be getting a lot of queens early. -you can aim to get to ultras asap or play your normal strategy and shift gradually later. Gradually cause you can’t just spam mass queens in an instant have them all charged up. -queens can help defend your base but don’t sacrifice them unless your game life depends on it. -You don’t need 200 army to charge, 4-6 ultras, 10-14 queens 3-4 infestors and about 48-64 zerglings. Will shred a lot of things to pieces, even some of the most fortified Terran positions will fall. -Works wonders in maps like jungle Basin and Xelnaga cavern. -works wonderfully in low numbers, decreased efficiency as the balls get bigger -Can use about 4-6 ultras to assassinate PF and run before main army arrives. If they try to repair, all the better. -Can switch to Broodlords and make BL queen combo. Note that BL + Ultra + queen + infestor is almost unbeatable. (watch first replay for that) -a group of 10-15 Hydralisks can be grouped with your queens for added range damage. Specially if toss has too many VR or immortals. Not recommended as queen replace hydras as unti-air, lings can do good vs Immortals, besides you wana add BL to your army composition for maximum power. -Can add Banelings for maximum carnage
Cons of this strat: -not very mobile, you can fight wherever there is creep only! When your 4 unit types are together or you should just make hit and run off creep. Never make a full engagement cause your queens won’t be there. -should focus on creep spread mid game and your opponent might catch you off guard. -sometimes in big fight in all the flashes and animation going you will loosed track of you cursor and cant heal any units. your ultras will die horrifically and you lose. -queens might block your ultras and all hell will break loose, you should research borrow and borrow immediately your queens so your ultras can have dinner. -Queens might block other queens from getting near ultras when the front ones have spent all their energy healing. -when people will get use to this strategy, it will be easy to detect and prepare for it, since mass queens don’t come from larva, you should build gradually and let them charge energy. So your opponent has very large time detecting your strategy. -after a large battle where you barely won, you might need to wait for your queens to charge up again even if you can replace all of your ultra at once. If you are leading by a margin, you might decide to send them to die the old fashion way and replace them as soon as they die. -less effective in large maps, you can try the ovi drop if you like. -requires high APM to actually manage to heal your forces while you fungal theirs. Counter to this strategy: Before Terran and Protoss tears go overboard I will offer you the counter strategy myself
For Terran: -lure him off creep if possible and kite. -don’t let him creep spread with ease. -Ghost. Yes Ghost is the hard counter to this strategy! 1 Ghost can burn energy of about 8-12 queens with ease. So if you get 5-7 scout with preferably stealth you will deny the healing for zerg and let your army kill the Ultras the old fashion way + you can snipe some ultras for added damage. The rest should crumble for zerg -Battle cruisers: yes battle cruiser somewhat counter this strat in mass (at least 10). If you double hit with your plasma gun each ultra, zerg won’t have time to heal the ultras up. Or just focus fire 1 queen at a time, zerg player will not be able to heal his queens in time. Your army sweeps the rest the old fashion way together with ur BC.
For Toss: -again fight off creep if possible -Templars hard counter this strategy, since 1 Templar can feed back up to 4 queens. So if you have 6-8 Templars you can feedback all the queens from range and clean the rest with your army. -pure immortal zealots counter this strategy to some extent. You will practically exchange armies. -The Mothership! Yes the mothership somewhat counters this strategy not because of stealth only which can be detected but because the mother ship can send the queens or the ultras into the void and deal with the zerg army 1 chunk at a time. Zerg might decide to join his brethren in the void and send he rest of his army there so they can emerge all together. But still it will create confusion and when they reappear the positioning will be messed up so you will be heavily penalized. Zerg has to snipe the scout or templars or face extinction. I recommend Baneling ovi Drops for Templars and scouts for added mayhem; or you can charge ur banlings + 1ultra (seperate group) on the HT/scout. The ultra will tank + destroy FF. The good news is when they make those they will have less of the rest, so zerg’s other known strategies would work.
Recommended build order to get there asap, although you can use any strategy than switch gradually: Normal 15hatch 14 pool 18 gaz. Eco boom as long as you think you can. Get roach warren and speed upgrade for zerglings. If pressured make the right balance of these 2 units together with spines. Get infestor pit asap. Get 4-5 infestors. Do not upgrade the infestor energy yet. Get hive asap. If they attack your third and you think you can’t hold it. Than let it die and buy time with inf fungal growth till your first 2-4 ultras are out. Remember your excess mineral is always going to queens. So you should have around 10-12 queens by now. If he decides to attack, fungal and use all your forces if necessary and turbo transfuse the ultras. None of them should die and you should kill 2000-4000 resource army with them with ease without any ultra loss! Use your aging roaches to harass and buy more time. Let them meet their end when u get max supply while taking max casualties. Roaches destroy the ai path finding of ultras and you will lose if you have them in your main army, so better open pop for more ultra/queens and if necessary other units. Fully upgrade your ultras first and speedlings. In the end upgrade range. You will notice that late game you will not need that much gas with this strat. You can always add some banelings and baneling drops for added fun.
Please see the replays I have mustard for your reference. And next time Toss/Terran make their ball, show them who has the bigger balls.
On February 04 2011 10:05 gROOT.clever wrote: WHAT ABOUT LATE GAME ULTRA/QUEEN DROPS? I forsee this becoming a staple of late-game zerg play. Along with the nydus-worm-into-spinecrawler rush
I can't tell if you're trolling, but your army will be significantly weaker by dropping those big bulky units + the queens.
Dropping a few ultras and queens is really not that bad of an idea. If he sends his entire army to deal with it, you will get them out of position and allow you to do terrible terrible damage on one of his expos. If he sends like half of his units, your overlords can poop creep in his base and the transfuses should hold off for them to do at least some damage. It might not be game changing but it could still work
Queens are so good for their cost, in due time people will recognize how good they are for fighting and I'm sure we will see more of them on the frontline soon.
hmmm likely to be countered by immortal zel templar and possibly ghost rauder rine medi or tank Its a nice idea none the less but there seems like a logical counter. feedback would instant pop queens/infestors, immortals with grades would blast holes in ultras, or even voids would do a good job clearing up the ultras with their bonus dps. Storm any lings too so I feel there is a counter for it the P's just need some experience with identifying it and preparing appropriately.
On February 04 2011 10:05 gROOT.clever wrote: WHAT ABOUT LATE GAME ULTRA/QUEEN DROPS? I forsee this becoming a staple of late-game zerg play. Along with the nydus-worm-into-spinecrawler rush
I laughed but definitely worth a try. Ultraqueen doom drop.
Hahah.. that is hilarious and your are on to something here! I think that super fast hive leaves you open to 2 base timing attacks though. But I really like the general idea of having a ton of queens coupled with beefy units and a slower and safer transition might be prefered in general. You skip the midgame army, which can be rather dangerous.
The ultra/queen synergy is something that's already been discussed a lot in other threads over the last month. Generally it's been concluded that rushing to that composition is a bad idea, however. Zerg is better off buying time with a T2 composition, e.g., muta/ling/bling vs. T, and then later transitioning into an army that involves ultras and queens. Ultra/baneling is an extremely potent combination, and queens complement it, both in terms of creep spread and transfusion.
The first Protoss was kinda bad. He pushed with one Collosi and was on only 3 gates for nearly the entire game where he threw down 7 more and then still had 800 minerals to spend. He did the right move by making Immortals, however it should've never even gotten to that point. He had a n Observer in your base the whole time and should've realized that you barely had an army .. But heck, what can you do? Massive props for originality though.
Protoss: There are not only colossi. I like for example the High temp, chargelot, immortal build and this would rape your queens and ultras. feedback...
are queens able to cast transfuse on a full health unit?
i think they should be allowed to if they cannot, because feedback is a powerful counter to queens and i use plenty of queens in my army and i would like a way to drain my queens energy so i can use them as anti air
On February 04 2011 10:23 aka_star wrote: hmmm likely to be countered by immortal zel templar and possibly ghost rauder rine medi or tank Its a nice idea none the less but there seems like a logical counter. feedback would instant pop queens/infestors, immortals with grades would blast holes in ultras, or even voids would do a good job clearing up the ultras with their bonus dps. Storm any lings too so I feel there is a counter for it the P's just need some experience with identifying it and preparing appropriately.
Dear Mr. Immediatelylookingatthenegativesideofeverystrat Team Liquid poster.
There is a "logical counter" to every single thing in Starcraft 2.
Everything.
On the other hand, the drops are a great way to solve the issue of queen mobility. Cool way to see ultras used in pvp effectively, I like it. They work really well with ultras, since their heal is the most cost effectively used on the ultra more than any other unit in the zerg army. I think that is what makes it so powerful. An ultralisk can make way more use of 150hp than anything zerg has (this is due to it's naturally high armor and very high splash damage). Nice to see someone coming up with a solution to a problem
There is little reason to go queens + ultra in this match up. Queens+Broodlord is stronger against the colossus death ball. It also outrange feedback, canons, everything. And to deal with mass protoss air, you just need to forget morphing broodlords. Not to mention that the transition is easier when you have made corruptors in the mid game.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Saw the first replay, and it's hilarious to see Hoti calling Ultras imbalanced when they're definitely not. All that happened was that he just got outplayed and rolled.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
On February 04 2011 10:31 whatthefat wrote: The ultra/queen synergy is something that's already been discussed a lot in other threads over the last month. Generally it's been concluded that rushing to that composition is a bad idea, however. Zerg is better off buying time with a T2 composition, e.g., muta/ling/bling vs. T, and then later transitioning into an army that involves ultras and queens. Ultra/baneling is an extremely potent combination, and queens complement it, both in terms of creep spread and transfusion.
I tried this tactic in custom for a while after reading the original post on SC2 forum and I must agree with the above statement. You will not be able to use the zergs best ability, which is macro, to its fullest. If your sitting on 2bases to long and rushing to tier3 there is a good chance your getting outmacrod by terran and protoss. At that point all they have to do is counter your army composition and the game is lost. Better do this when your in lategame and have lots of resources to spare for any kind of combination. I am using mass queens and ultras in lategame now more often thanks to the examples posted by TC. So I think its still a great post.
Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
i fucking LOVE the idea of dropping a couple ultras and queens at a choke with an infestor and just completly blocking it while like 50 upgraded cracklings just RAGE on a base till its in cinders. right as the ultras are about to die take your queens, your infestor and your lings and throw em in a worm or evne just put em back in ovies and leave lol.
likewise if he decides to just counter you just worm back to your base for the last second defend. zerg mobility ftw!
also, ive been loving ultralisks lately, they have been winning me alot of fucking games lately. and im talking about games that lords would have probably lost me. and i can tell you from experience that the KEY thing that makes ultras awesome or worthless is not queens, its upgrades.
also you simply cannot RUSH to them. what i do is open speedling expand upgrade my ling attakc and carapace, i get a baneling nest against terran and protoss and get lair when its safe so i can throw down a spire.
i start teching to hive around the time i have 8-9 mutas, a good amount to pin back an opponent for a while and buy some time. from there all i do is take more bases and wait for the push while continuing to upgrade. ive smashed SOOOOO many different unit comps with just mutas ling/bane and ultra and the simple reason is because the DPS is just so insanely high and the mutas/lings/bane/ultra ALL get to attack in unison.
the biggest key to this unit comp is that you only get like 5-6 ultras max and spend all the rest of your 200 food on lings and mutas and bane. again no extra queens because they simply cut to hard into your supply and are too fragile in big engagements.
ALSO with this comp you can fight off of creep because if they try to kite you, you in turn kite them with mutas and speedlings. every time they run back your mutas and lings get free shots. everytime they sit still to attack your ultras surge forward crushing stalkers/tanks/thors allowing your muta ling to pick off everything else with ease.
dont flame me owl legs im only a puny 2800 zerg but its not because of my strategy its because of my macro.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games) + 4 gate all-in/k4g (I hate PvP anyways). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
It's already been discussed many times before, but yes definitely Queens do increase the effectiveness by Ultralisks by a lot. Plus they make decent AA
Well good thing you have replays and a long and informative OP, otherwise this might have been closed. Well thanks for sharing, may be more people will know now that Ultras can be useful
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana...
Queens don't weaken your army, in fact, they kill void rays/tank damage plus the continual transfusions.
Hydras have greater DPS, but can they use it if they melt in 2 seconds?
They increase mobility (creep tumors), and once you have a lot of macro hatches you can do consecutive 300 food pushes (larvae spam, never run out of larvae ever again).
How does it weaken your economy? In fact, it also saves your larvae (resources), but "no way in hell" does in weaken your economy. Does it spend larvae? No.
Sorry, nice try, but no banana...
(Are you the top tier of players? If you were, you would know that it doesn't weaken the army+economy. "You should also not talk if not.")
You should have multiple in-base-hatches by the time there's a death push.
Get drop ship over lords to move the queens up with the ultras. Then unload the queens, drop creep and put down a tumor. Takes some work, but you can move much faster with your queens.
Isn't the point of a "death ball" to be unstoppable almost A-move? With the queens and intense micro you'd have to use I think it would defeat the purpose of the death ball. Dont get me wrong, I love the idea and have played around with it, but ball against ball with the amount of micro needed to constantly heal the ultras I don't find it worth it to use as a legitament stratedgy. Just my 2 cents though
By the time you can get ultras out with a reasonable number of hatcheries to make queens, a reasonable number of bases to make it not a chz allin, decent upgrades to make your ultras, and nydus and/or drop to make your stuff not immobile and useless - well terran can have 3 bases, mass tanks with marine support and thors or marauders. Protoss can have 3 bases with immortals, colossus or storm, AND voidrays or even a mothership.
You're basically only going to be able to support that army in a lategame situation where T and P are finishing their tech trees up and massing more production off 3 + bases. Yes, you can have 6 base or something. No, it doesn't matter worth a damn. Once T or P gets a maxed army off 3 bases there is no army composition that will do ANYTHING to kill it. You cannot harass a T with turrets+PFs+a couple tanks. You cannot harass a protoss with warpin storm and cannons.
I don't see how you'll ever be able to gain an advantage past that point with ANY playstyle, and ultraqueen requires a massive amount of time to remax, so if you fail an attack the game is over.
I'm sorry, from the games I just played and from prior experience, zerg cannot win lategame with any army composition without being stupidly ahead. This is a fantastic effort, but until Blizzard does something you're best off finding a 2 base allin that works well and using that instead.
Erm... You guys criticizing his idea, you should first watch his replays and see how he roflstomps stuff. Also, this makes me think about mass broodlords + transfuse xD
On February 04 2011 10:33 roymarthyup wrote: because feedback is a powerful counter to queens and i use plenty of queens in my army and i would like a way to drain my queens energy so i can use them as anti air
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana...
Queens don't weaken your army, in fact, they kill void rays/tank damage plus the continual transfusions.
Hydras have greater DPS, but can they use it if they melt in 2 seconds?
They increase mobility (creep tumors), and once you have a lot of macro hatches you can do consecutive 300 food pushes (larvae spam, never run out of larvae ever again).
How does it weaken your economy? In fact, it also saves your larvae (resources), but "no way in hell" does in weaken your economy. Does it spend larvae? No.
Sorry, nice try, but no banana...
(Are you the top tier of players? If you were, you would know that it doesn't weaken the army+economy. "You should also not talk if not.")
You should have multiple in-base-hatches by the time there's a death push.
isnt skinnyowllegs like 3200 masters or somthing crazy??? # 1 in EU i thought?also what difference does his skill level make? if what he says is correct then its correct.
On February 04 2011 13:32 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: By the time you can get ultras out with a reasonable number of hatcheries to make queens, a reasonable number of bases to make it not a chz allin, decent upgrades to make your ultras, and nydus and/or drop to make your stuff not immobile and useless - well terran can have 3 bases, mass tanks with marine support and thors or marauders. Protoss can have 3 bases with immortals, colossus or storm, AND voidrays or even a mothership.
You're basically only going to be able to support that army in a lategame situation where T and P are finishing their tech trees up and massing more production off 3 + bases. Yes, you can have 6 base or something. No, it doesn't matter worth a damn. Once T or P gets a maxed army off 3 bases there is no army composition that will do ANYTHING to kill it. You cannot harass a T with turrets+PFs+a couple tanks. You cannot harass a protoss with warpin storm and cannons.
I don't see how you'll ever be able to gain an advantage past that point with ANY playstyle, and ultraqueen requires a massive amount of time to remax, so if you fail an attack the game is over.
I'm sorry, from the games I just played and from prior experience, zerg cannot win lategame with any army composition without being stupidly ahead. This is a fantastic effort, but until Blizzard does something you're best off finding a 2 base allin that works well and using that instead.
you obviously have never seen a rep of 5/3 ultras and crackling walking into a ball of like 12 tanks and 6 thors and utterly obliterating them. (he actually posted reps of this but i can too)
This could actually be really good. Not broken-good like a 2rax, but good, solid, but is a bit gimmicky. It can be the zerg equivalent of a 4gate, only late-game only.
I am trying to to get to engame asap, but I can always pump tier1 tier2 just enough to deffend myself, dont forget that zerg low thiers is more cost effective and cheaper in gas than specially Protoss (before the ball gets big enough) 1collosi is manageable but 3 and above is a death sentence for zerg without the proper counter, so early pushes help alot to reduce the chance of a timing push just before your ultras pop. 2nd you can always go your normal build and transition to Ultra queens late game, I was just experimenting if zerg can 2 bases survive/win. any ground composition including banshees/Vrays will melt away unless they have HT/Ghost. (ghost in not common vs Zerg). even if they make these than their army has much less of other gas heavy units, so you can switch to mass roaches if you like. I rather transition To BL queen later if they go HT/Ghosts, as going BL first is even more dangerous than ultra, you can hold his timming push with just 2-3 ultras and 12 queens, but you cant with 2-3 BLs besides they take more time.. If toss goes imortal heavy than I increase the lings count and surroud. dont forget that ultras cancel FF too so he cant block your army. You can always change tactics as zerg way more easely than P/T. so you can adapt as the game goes on. If you still doubt this build than I suggest you watch the army values during the replay and than try it yourself.
Lets say this is going up against a Protoss who has stargates and the gas to make whatever he wants. Now, you said you can't engage off the creep. So you're at the mercy of creep spread and your immobility. If this is scouted, and idk why 200/200 armies of ultras and queens wouldn't be, P transitions to Phoenix, lifts your queens and the army stomps the ultras. Not so easy to stop phoenixes. They can flank and Gbeam your queens easily.
This is a good strat if P decides to A-move blindly, or thinks his death ball is invincible. You may want to include some infestors to fungal growth and let the ultras go to work, or include some hydras for additional AA, but this severely cuts your ultra and queen count. Especially if you want enough queens to get good creep spread and transfuse.
Another problem is storm if you include other units such as hydras and lings. Because you can't be the aggressor, and are limited by the immobility you let P expand where ever as long as he keeps your creep in check. Immobility and a chance to annihilate the opponents' forces? Welcome to the world of Toss :D
Also, Terran is going to EMP you dead....you said it. I'd actually just And I don't have to feedback all your queens, just enough that you can't heal over and over and replenish, or enough that my air units win.
On February 04 2011 16:30 KidCurry wrote: Lets say this is going up against a Protoss who has stargates and the gas to make whatever he wants. Now, you said you can't engage off the creep. So you're at the mercy of creep spread and your immobility. If this is scouted, and idk why 200/200 armies of ultras and queens wouldn't be, P transitions to Phoenix, lifts your queens and the army stomps the ultras. Not so easy to stop phoenixes. They can flank and Gbeam your queens easily.
What army is going to stomp his ultras? The phoenixes would need to massively outnumber the queens for this to be effective, and that would not leave enough of anything to stop the ultras. That's not to say his build can't be scouted and countered - any build can be. But phoenixes are unlikely to help much here.
I do this in customs all the time. It's not good by any means, since all they have to do is fight off creep and get obs or kill you before you get the ultras out, which is a HUGE timing window. Basically, you can only do this if you're ahead from the early game. But it's fun to noob bash with mass queens + 1 hero ultra.
On February 04 2011 16:35 Jumbled wrote:What army is going to stomp his ultras? The phoenixes would need to massively outnumber the queens for this to be effective, and that would not leave enough of anything to stop the ultras. That's not to say his build can't be scouted and countered - any build can be. But phoenixes are unlikely to help much here.
They don't have to out number it. Equal or enough so that zerg doesn't have enough energy to transfuse.
As for the army, I'd use immortals, storm>archons, and colossi. Even after the queens are let down, you can GB again.
1- Yes your are bound to creep, but have you seen how fast 6 ultras take an expension and run before main army arrives? PF with all worker repair will fall in 5 seconds along with the workers, you just run back afterwards to your queens and heal while your spreading the creeps to his base. Ovis will turbocharge creepspread. andwith 20-24 queens. you dont need much time to get there. 2- You can fight right off the creep, if you send your ovis on top of his army. 3-Fungal is essantial against MM and blink stalkers. If they main army is a metal he can't kite you. and he will stand and fight, thinking he will smash you. 3- you can make ovi drops directly in his base while you nydus the back of his base, spread creep, destroy his base, before army arrives, fight him in his base, and if needed retreat through nydus if loosing or he decides to push to your base. You can sacrifice your ultras but not your queens if you wish. This works better in larger maps like lost temple. 4- All you skeptical arrogant Masters who still are not convince from a diamond player, have to give it a try before jumping to conclusion. I will happily give you a lesson or two in this strat (as long as you promise not to B-line HT/scout and counter the queens). I have beaten badly many master players with it. its not hard deffending early pushes and Toss/Terran happily expand if you let them. its fun destroying larger armies over and over and make him feel helpless. Note that this is a new strategy and most people will not know how to counter properly. my user name is DiranMan code 973 add me if ou wish. 5-about pheonix killing my queens.. right. you wana lift my 24 queens, and let your workers stomp my army... right... 6-Remember you can play anyway you want (Mutas/lings/banelings/roaches hydras) and transition to ultra queens late game, but my strat works best if he harasses you with banshee or Pheonix early, you will make tons of queens and he thinks your overeacting and will be happy, untill about the time of the first big fight. 7- Remember my strat works because pre minute 13-14 ( the ultra coming to stage) there will be no ball unmanageable by lings/roaches/spine/infestors + queens. it only gets out of hand without ultras when the ball is too big. ultra should be out unless he made you loose too much in the early harasses/pushes, at which point you already lost, not because your B-lining to ultras and you did not have enough when he pused you at 11-12 min. 8- if the opponnent try to harass engage early game, than all the better. as you will happilly trade your low tiers (low gas) army with his. elliminating completly the window where you are vunrable the most just before the ultras pop. 9- if the opponent focus fires your ultras, 1 half is army will not be shooting (getting in position) + they will overkill. in the bigger fights you should have around 12 ultras, by the time he kills your 4-6 ultras you should have killed enough so that they cant 1 shot u anymore (you can spam heal the focus fired ultra). + your lings will survive longer to slice through his army. remember you can click transfuse at least 8-10times a sec. effectively 1000-1250hp. it should cancel the damage output of the ennemy army. remember in the biggest fight you need 12 ultras + lings not because they can fight alltogether, but so you can afford to loose half and still have about the same output damage. as the fight goes on the fight will get easier. even if you traded armies than you have won. you can make a new army and smash his base. in previous strats your best bet is to trade your army with half of his (200/200) and make a new army to kill the rest.
I think people need to ask themselves what their alternative is the protoss death ball? Roach/Hyrda/Corruptor? Forcefields completely wreck roach/hydra, and the Ultralisk solves this. Massing corruptor is dangerous because first VRs do quite well vs corruptors, and second, you could be left with a largely useless, expensive unit while you tech to broodlords.
I think this has a lot of promise. I watched some replays and he beat armies that had a food advantage on him (does this ever happen w/ roach/hydra corrupter?) and he wasn't even that great w/ the transfusion. The extra creep spread is awesome. Make some overseers and obs will have a tough time seeing anything w/ so many queens running around and tie up Collosus production.
It's an early strategy, but the way so many TL posters just trash new strategies is disheartening.
haha I just tried this.. Albeit my opponent was pretty terrible (platinum player), I really felt like the Collosous ball was easy to handle for once. Even though he he had around 5(!) collosous! Im pretty sure that engagement wouldn't have gone so obviously in my favor if I'd gone with my usual Corrupter-based defense.
Ofcourse he responded by going mass immortal and HT, which killed it.. but naturally, I can counter that in one foul swoop of my mighty 6 hatcheries!
I was surprised at how handily it took out the Terran's first push in the Tyr game and you did this with low APM and not-the-best macro/micro. I think people should try this before knocking it so hard. One flaw I can see right now is the lack of map control and mobility you'll have.
However, I like that having that much Queens means you won't have to worry about any air most T/P are willing to make and you can keep your Ultras alive for a long long time. This was a sexy post.
It's an early strategy, but the way so many TL posters just trash new strategies is disheartening.
I am sure that this tactic will be implemented with alot of players including the pros. most will integrate it in their play style, it has huge potential, you just have to get confident with it. its not neccesarly a tactic to implement in every game, but against pure traditional armies (no HT or Ghost) it trashes the opposite army. It is particularly effective VS collossu/VR ball. previously if toss deffends well and makes the ball of death than its really over for Z. but not anymore..
Okay here's my very first try. This was a master/diamond battle and there were parts where I felt a bit vulnerable before the Ultras came, but I could've gotten them a bit faster. The armor upgrades+ultra armor is reaaallly awesome.
On February 04 2011 21:59 kckkryptonite wrote: Okay here's my very first try. This was a master/diamond battle and there were parts where I felt a bit vulnerable before the Ultras came, but I could've gotten them a bit faster. The armor upgrades+ultra armor is reaaallly awesome.
Youd did ok for first time but not really correctly.
1- u need to get ultras at least 1 min earlier (no early armor attack upgrade, only after you start upgrading hive. 2- u need to get 4-5 infestors as soon as the infestor pit is ready. you need them to charge early. they can hold any aggretion together with your queen/ lings/roaches/splines. against terran fungal, against toss fungal +inf terran rock. 3- you need 4-6 spine crawlers to help deffend an all in.(remember ur queens can transfuse that as well. 4- upgrade ovi speed, divide them in 2 groups. send them on top their army to be able to fight just off creep.. 5- your opponnent was really bad. 6-make 4-6 zerglings/ultra. make even more lings if they got more immortal. 7-u need fungal to stop blink.
This is interesting. I've used it with decent results in low diamond against Terrans. If they go for Siege Tank/Marine timing attacks, you basically die, but when they decide to play a macro game, it works decently well.
I prefer the "standard" ZvT, to be honest, but this is pretty funny/works well with the Funday Monday.
I don't know if you remember this from beta, but the queens used to have the same movement speed off creep as an unupgraded ultralisk, on the korean servers zerg were going for a 3-5queen/ultra rush, they could get it out in around 7minutes and it was difficult to get enough of an army to stop it, or enough air to kill it before it could ruin your base. Hence the reason the lair build time was upped a bit and queen speed off creep nerfed into the ground.
I played this before on PTR when I was fiddling around with toss. I've only encountered this once though, and the zerg was turtling pretty hard. Then he just denied expos and teched to ultras by about 15 minutes.
Next thing I know mass queens and ultras are out. I tried to FF... oh wat. I had like 6 immortals out and a couple colossi as well as a decent amount of gateway units...
On February 05 2011 03:05 fishinguy wrote: Oh well us terran players have quite simple solution : EMP. I suppose toss players can get HTs as well for feedback.
The thing is, ghosts don't KILL queens, and an emp won't take out more than 4 or 5, not to mention how worthless they are vs Ultralisks. HT are good in that they kill queens, but they do more harm than good vs ultras, and gateway armies get rofl stomped by ultra/ling. Well, everything but mass blink stalkers, that is. I've destroyed many an ultra army with blink.
sounds like its gona be an easy ghost emp counter or a raven flying around killing the creep so the queens cant go anywhere. it would definatly take a person by surprise but if he sees it im sure i could be hard counterd
On February 05 2011 03:05 fishinguy wrote: Oh well us terran players have quite simple solution : EMP. I suppose toss players can get HTs as well for feedback.
The thing is, ghosts don't KILL queens, and an emp won't take out more than 4 or 5, not to mention how worthless they are vs Ultralisks. HT are good in that they kill queens, but they do more harm than good vs ultras, and gateway armies get rofl stomped by ultra/ling. Well, everything but mass blink stalkers, that is. I've destroyed many an ultra army with blink.
How are ghosts worthless against ultralisks? Sure they aren't the best but snipe ignores armor and with enough energy can do quite a bit of damage.
Again, already used and fallen out of favor on the Korean servers, esp after queen move speed got nerfed.
Also Zealots + Sentry (assuming that toss is maxed out in armor and +1 shield) Ultras do 9damage (no attack upgrades) for the first 6 attacks, then only 6 damage for every attack after that, making zealots VERY tanky against ultras, since rushlots inevitably end up out front, this allows the protoss line to be held long enough for all those really nasty toss units to dish out a fucktonne of damage, in relative safety. I think you underestimate the damage output potential of a toss that has kept up with a zerg's macro long enough to make ultras a viable tech choice. Then there is this:
On February 05 2011 03:05 fishinguy wrote: Oh well us terran players have quite simple solution : EMP. I suppose toss players can get HTs as well for feedback.
The thing is, ghosts don't KILL queens, and an emp won't take out more than 4 or 5, not to mention how worthless they are vs Ultralisks. HT are good in that they kill queens, but they do more harm than good vs ultras, and gateway armies get rofl stomped by ultra/ling. Well, everything but mass blink stalkers, that is. I've destroyed many an ultra army with blink.
How are ghosts worthless against ultralisks? Sure they aren't the best but snipe ignores armor and with enough energy can do quite a bit of damage.
You'd need a crap load of ghosts to make that viable. 11 snipes to take down a single Ultralisk? And that's a full ghost, which you won't have if you're throwing emps all over their queens. You'd be way better off with tanks, which are cheaper and have AOE.
Non-noob protoss can just go, oh my stalker/collosus got owned, time to make mass zealot/immortal. This build only works vs players that dont know how to deal with ultras. Also the protoss(first game) didnt even harass. He pushed out with 3 collosus hoping to kill you in the first place.
On February 04 2011 10:23 FinestHour wrote: Queens are so good for their cost, in due time people will recognize how good they are for fighting and I'm sure we will see more of them on the frontline soon.
Have you ever been the guy who rolls Queens in a monobattle? Doesn't sound like you have.
Although I usually do get at leas 2 queens per hatch and have seen a lot of zergs doing the same. Its the healing power, the creep, the long range AA (goodbye medivacs) that really add some strength to the zerg ball.
It's funny how the current trend in ZvP topics has been "I outmacro and outplay my toss opponent, but I can't beat Colo + VR compsition", now when somebody posts an armycomposition that stomps Colo + VR, all the zergs dismiss it as impossibility.
Non-noob protoss can just go, oh my stalker/collosus got owned, time to make mass zealot/immortal. This build only works vs players that dont know how to deal with ultras. Also the protoss(first game) didnt even harass. He pushed out with 3 collosus hoping to kill you in the first place.
Isn't forcing protoss to transition from his most generally effective armycomposition a very good thing for zerg, as with all solid strategies, you can transition out of this one too. Harrassing a zerg who goes for multiple queens is also extremely difficult, you got better creep spread, transfuse for crawlers/queens.
On February 04 2011 10:23 FinestHour wrote: Queens are so good for their cost, in due time people will recognize how good they are for fighting and I'm sure we will see more of them on the frontline soon.
Have you ever been the guy who rolls Queens in a monobattle? Doesn't sound like you have.
Although I usually do get at leas 2 queens per hatch and have seen a lot of zergs doing the same. Its the healing power, the creep, the long range AA (goodbye medivacs) that really add some strength to the zerg ball.
Queens have low DPS, but their abilities are invaluable. The thing is, they're very cost-effective.
Queens don't cost gas nor larvae, so their DPS is quite decent for the cost. Stalker have like 6.94 DPS compared to the queens 8 DPS, and the stalker costs 25 minerals less, but 50 more gas.
On February 04 2011 10:23 FinestHour wrote: Queens are so good for their cost, in due time people will recognize how good they are for fighting and I'm sure we will see more of them on the frontline soon.
Have you ever been the guy who rolls Queens in a monobattle? Doesn't sound like you have.
Although I usually do get at leas 2 queens per hatch and have seen a lot of zergs doing the same. Its the healing power, the creep, the long range AA (goodbye medivacs) that really add some strength to the zerg ball.
Queens have low DPS, but their abilities are invaluable. The thing is, they're very cost-effective.
Queens don't cost gas nor larvae, so their DPS is quite decent for the cost. Stalker have like 6.94 DPS compared to the queens 8 DPS, and the stalker costs 25 minerals less, but 50 more gas.
The really promising thing about making multiple queens early game is that it doesn't interrupt your drone production, like every other zerg defensive unit. making defending 4gate with multiple queens and spines a breeze on good static defense maps like LT
It's a strategy and, like any other, works against some things and fail to others. The point is - it seems to work against our worst toss/terran nightmare aka deathballs. And it seems so damn fun. In the replay lots of resources are unspent and I think that overall the match could had gone many other ways, in examples if the toss went for stargate instead of straight colossi, there was no scout at all. I mean, to try this out I must first figure out how this will work in other situations, but it is a very good sensation to finally have a solution for the deathball problems. And to choke points. Until blizzard nerf queens cuz "this isn't what they're supposed to do in first place". :p Let's make it work, shall we? ^~
PS: And hell, why not punish those protoss who straight up build that colossi ball. Cuz now we can.
I just want to note that the classic Protoss deathball is falling out of favor and being replaced with a new kind of deathball that this Zerg deathball cannot deal with. This Zerg deathball is a little late to the party. New P deathball: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190094
On February 05 2011 09:09 tehemperorer wrote: I just want to note that the classic Protoss deathball is falling out of favor and being replaced with a new kind of deathball that this Zerg deathball cannot deal with. This Zerg deathball is a little late to the party. New P deathball: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190094
That's for mostly late-game against the zerg deathball imo.
It's because void rays are great against ultras as well as immortals, and high templars can storm and quickly form power units: archons.
Nice post Diran! Lots of things to think about, and I hope you send a rep of this to Day9 for this upcoming funday monday. I'm always interested in new, fun and quirky builds that hold promise.
And to all you haters that are all, oh, well all he has to do is make the counter unit of mass ghost/maurader or mass immortal/templar...
Well, who the %&$^ goes ghost/maurader or immortal/templar vs zerg? No, we usually get either bio ball of marine/maruder/medivac, biomech of marine/tank, or pure mech of hellion thor tank viking or some other gas heavy crap. I hardly ever see ghosts, or mass mauraders.
immortal/templar?! Okay, so when his stalker ball toss players ALWAYS makes comes out at 175/200 with a few 5-6 collosi, sure, he'll have the supply to add in a few immortals and templar to hold it off...
You know, Hive teching with a spire and maybe muta harrass is another possibility, rather than infestors, might be viable in transition too, with queens to heal your harrassing mutas, and hive tech being assumed to be going for air. What's toss gonna do? Make stalkers. (I highly dout he'll go, ah mutas, better make immortals to prevent the inevitable ultras coming). What's terran gonna do? Make rines or thors, and several turrets (Again, I doubt he'll make ghosts/mauraders). Once you're ready, suicide some supply, make some spine crawlers, etc., and then make a round of 5-8 ultras, all coming out at the same time. Good luck to him responding to your ultras soon enough.
I like the idea, but I think the key is to stay alive with low tech harrass, while hard teching and macroing, and then suicide supply in some form or fashion and replace to 200 cap with ultras, all the while making queens, maybe burrowing them or putting them into a nydus(with a few exits to avoid a nydus-snipe crap-their-went-my-army-I'm-such-a-noob moment) to hide their presence if you're paranoid of templar/ghost counters, lol.
pfft, maurader/ghost and immortal/templar... who the &^%$ says, I know, I'm gonna hard tech the robo and templar archives and just mass those units if I see queens, or I'm so making ghosts and mauraders, all-in, he'll never give up his queen ultras and just transition to mass-muta to rape me... lololololol
In any case, gj Diran, just cheese all them haters man. :D
I doubt the viability of this build simply due to the sheer potency to die early on and other factors, but I'm sure it will make up for some hilarious matches.
You guys should remember that we're just talking about a late game unit composition. There's absolutely no need to tech straight to ultras, it would just be a reaction to turtling toss/terran.
On February 05 2011 14:59 Shintuku wrote: You guys should remember that we're just talking about a late game unit composition. There's absolutely no need to tech straight to ultras, it would just be a reaction to turtling toss/terran.
yes true, this a late game unit composition, If terran/toss fast expand you can tech fast. + you can always spam low tier units to hold the line. it is in your benefit that they push so there will be no window where you are truly vunerable (just before ultras). note that I always keep some resource + supply + larva in the bank early game to respond to any threat. Infestors are awsome I use them alot. they can hold with your army any treath before ultras come. + u make them early so they charge energy later you use them mostly for fungal. Lately I'been experimenting to tech switching to mass mutas after you have about 8 ultras. it works great as you will harass all the time and keep them out of balance. If they go immortal/zealots/HT. add more zerglings and banelings to the fiesta. He cant FF you due to ultras. banelings will clean zealots/HT lings and ultras fk the rest. If you think the Immortal/zealot/Ht is too strong to break through than tech switch to BL. BL + mass queen rock too. As some one else said, you can make Nydus and hide your queens there if you wana hide your strat. but for now most people will not know how to react and you dont need to hide them.
So you completely skip baneling against terran, even if he's going mass marines...That's scary, specially for the mid game. oO
This compo is impressive still, you even won with less food and worst éco on some games against Toss, still i don't like it so much. It feels too much defensive and you can't even go off creep ( well...Sometimes i feel this way with hydra :s ). I've choose zerg for the mobility and this feels almost like a terran army.
But i'm very impressed by some results ( not the results of the games which are not very good and representative imo, but some big battle ). I do think a good amount of queen is useful, maybe not as much as what you play imo, the method for spreading creep you re using is kind of funny too and very effective and transfuse rocks with ultra, but do i need to say it ? Maybe a group of 8/10 queens, spreading creep all over the map and as a support during the battle would feel more ok to me. I also don't understand why you should completely avoid baneling, there so freaking awesome and as posted before, they ve got the exact same speed of the ultra and share the same upgrade. They make your "ballz of doom" deal more damage.
And for a final word, i think you are a little pretentious in your games, almost bm if you ask me.
On February 05 2011 22:12 MorroW wrote: no composition in zvp can beat a toss army with mothership in it, its nice to have dreams tho
hmmm.. you should try neuraling the Mothership, send his units in the void, add max 20banelings in the mix, once the vortex ends, only goo remains. seriously try it. zerg is not gona get any better if you only rely on Hydra roach corrupter, or ling/blings/mutas always.
if you still doubt my army composition. try it in unit tester map or unit counter. a bronze player tried and achieved the following results, im sure u can do a little better
I guess when you get to master level, you should memorize the book of strategy/counters. this strat has not been added in it yet so its not a legitimate strategy and it will fail P.S. don’t know what to do next. Besides the Koreans are not using it than surely it sucks, but hey maybe a bronze player can do better...
:-)) EPIC FAIL!!! ... "try it in unit tester map or unit counter." i guess "unit tester map or unit counter" does not do focus fire kiting etc... :-)) If you want to validate your results try it the other way, you controlling the P army i am sure you can just kill everything without loosing a single unit :-)) and what would that mean? for me just waste of time!
On February 06 2011 04:16 icezar wrote: :-)) EPIC FAIL!!! ... "try it in unit tester map or unit counter." i guess "unit tester map or unit counter" does not do focus fire kiting etc... :-)) If you want to validate your results try it the other way, you controlling the P army i am sure you can just kill everything without loosing a single unit :-)) and what would that mean? for me just waste of time!
toss does not need much more than a move to kill z army. FF is not gona help here anyway. the point is this unit combo can smash colossi VR combo to pcs. if you fail to see that than your no better than a noob. if you wana a move ultras, than ur trying to prove that ultras are epic fail (like they were) the point is queen make them semi Invincible. i guess ur too noob to understand that, anyway... gl and gg when some one tries that against you in a real game..
On February 05 2011 22:12 MorroW wrote: no composition in zvp can beat a toss army with mothership in it, its nice to have dreams tho
hmmm.. you should try neuraling the Mothership, send his units in the void, add max 20banelings in the mix, once the vortex ends, only goo remains. seriously try it. zerg is not gona get any better if you only rely on Hydra roach corrupter, or ling/blings/mutas always.
if you still doubt my army composition. try it in unit tester map or unit counter. a bronze player tried and achieved the following results, im sure u can do a little better
I guess when you get to master level, you should memorize the book of strategy/counters. this strat has not been added in it yet so its not a legitimate strategy and it will fail P.S. don’t know what to do next. Besides the Koreans are not using it than surely it sucks, but hey maybe a bronze player can do better...
Lol you show that the data shows this build is ahead but state that it's illegitimate because it's not standard and no koreans are doing it.
No strategy is "illegitimate," there are only strategies that work or fail, and the op has demonstrated to some extent how this strategy can work.
On February 05 2011 03:05 fishinguy wrote: Oh well us terran players have quite simple solution : EMP. I suppose toss players can get HTs as well for feedback.
The thing is, ghosts don't KILL queens, and an emp won't take out more than 4 or 5, not to mention how worthless they are vs Ultralisks. HT are good in that they kill queens, but they do more harm than good vs ultras, and gateway armies get rofl stomped by ultra/ling. Well, everything but mass blink stalkers, that is. I've destroyed many an ultra army with blink.
How are ghosts worthless against ultralisks? Sure they aren't the best but snipe ignores armor and with enough energy can do quite a bit of damage.
You'd need a crap load of ghosts to make that viable. 11 snipes to take down a single Ultralisk? And that's a full ghost, which you won't have if you're throwing emps all over their queens. You'd be way better off with tanks, which are cheaper and have AOE.
Tanks don't deal AoE against Ultralisks. They are too big, they are literally larger than the size of the splash damage.
I just tried this build a few times in a row and i think this is really strong.I even beat the oh-so-feared VR+Colossi combo. The weakness is, as already mentioned, early timing pushes. Especially blink stalkers just totally fuck you up. Some lings and a few roaches just cant do shit against a ball of blink stalkers
ultralisk queen is really good for the lategame, just don't try to FORCE it to happen quickly. There's a reason you only get the ultralisk in the lategame. The tech just takes too long.
Needless to say, when I built 3 extra queens for transfuse before I got my ultra-cavern up, those ultras became really really strong.
Although, their size to brain ratio is 15million:1 . They've learned a lot from the dragoon AI, and are generally really freaking stupid in chokes.
On February 06 2011 06:08 Necro_ wrote: I just tried this build a few times in a row and i think this is really strong.I even beat the oh-so-feared VR+Colossi combo. The weakness is, as already mentioned, early timing pushes. Especially blink stalkers just totally fuck you up. Some lings and a few roaches just cant do shit against a ball of blink stalkers
Well thats y i get infestors early, remember if he pushes before infestors, than ur lings roaches splines should be enough. if just before the ultras pop, remember i always get 4-5 infestors EARLY!! fungal works great vs terran, inf terran work wonders vs toss. together with your main army u should handle well. later if he got blink he can kite ur ultras/army indefinetly, that's where fungal is more usefull vs toss. as i have said a million maybe Z is not supposed to push for ultras so fast, but i enjoy doing it, but the main point of the thread is that my combo smashes lategame armys that we had most trouble dealing with. previously you should have gotten at least+2 bases and infinite resources to pump so fast that you can scratch him. Btw regarding Mothership i realized that infestors are most usefull even if you cant manage to neural it. remember 1) fungal decloaks 2) if he does not have enough colossi (fearing ur ultras) u can mass infestor marines on top and around his army, (leave front empty for ultras) and watch some beautifull scene of toss gore spilled.
Sounds alot like the mech style of zerg because of its immobility but because of how powerful it seems in an actual fight could actually be effective if utilized properly.
Still mostly speculations though since I haven't seen enough games of it to actually see how powerful it is in different circumstances.
I've been doing ling infestor a lot in zvt. It feels like its how zerg should be played and by that I mean that there are a ridicuolous amount of free minerals so you expand like crazy and get extra queens. So for staving off any mid game pressure before ultras you might actually be able to use infestors ling. Kinda like the way you do in zvt you pretty much get double evos, get your lair, put down the infestation pit and once you have enough infestors out (usually 4-6 in zvt) you start your hive. You have your hive pretty early and lay down the ultra den as soon as it finishes. To beat collosus pushes you tank with slings, NP a few of the collosus with your queens (transfuse the infestors) and spawn as many infested terrans as you can. Then transition into ultras.
You start by saying "Everybody knows ultas are horrible" which is just plain misinformed and epic fail. Nevermind that Queens+Ultras is nowhere near anything new. Grats.
I tried this with a good number of hydras probably could have used more queens. My micro was horrible I couldn't transfuse well because everything was packed together and I couldn't see the health bars. I'm gonna try to take some of your tips and see if that works better.
thing is that on higher levels there will actually be an attempt to prevent creep spread. in ZvP the guy could have simply used an observer and shot down tumors so queens have no mobility (of course this can be countered by having your units not sitting in your base or with the use of drops). Ultras were always decent in ZvP anyways because all of their armored units but if they even attempt to micro then the effectiveness of the ultra is cut greatly but of course you also had infestors but you didnt really have to use fungals. I can see this working maybe once in awhile but I think it needs these key things such as protecting your creep spread and using fungals. This can get countered pretty hard with HTs using feedback on your queens though, then you're just fighting a half army against a full protoss army.
On February 05 2011 22:12 MorroW wrote: no composition in zvp can beat a toss army with mothership in it, its nice to have dreams tho
yeaaaaah someone who finally feels my pain I've been working so hard on my build and unit composition only to find the end boss unbeatable... vortex and splash needs to be reworked thats not working as intended that's just another free win card for brotoss
Queens are amazing units as a whole. The only unit that is permanent and doesn't cost larvae, not even gas, yet is a caster with godlike hp. They can be used in almost all Zery builds. My personal favourite is the unexpected hydraqueen with pure hydras. Queens soak up god amounts of dmg if you put them in front while range-upgraded hydras rape the front safely behind the queen wall. Completely turns off all phoenix, viking, voidray or muta play. And the creep spread is simply insane when there are >4 tumours spreading. Helps get that highway up for the hydras as well.
Queen roach/baneling is also very powerful against many things.
I started using mass queens a couple of days ago and it feels very safe. I have managed to hold off 4-gate, 3-gate + voidray and 3-gate + robo. Usually with lings + spines + queens.. then I can transition into roach/hydra or muta/ling. After the initial battle I usually have 5-7 queens. I will post a few replays when I have a few good ones.
On February 05 2011 22:12 MorroW wrote: no composition in zvp can beat a toss army with mothership in it, its nice to have dreams tho
yeaaaaah someone who finally feels my pain I've been working so hard on my build and unit composition only to find the end boss unbeatable... vortex and splash needs to be reworked thats not working as intended that's just another free win card for brotoss
Have you tried neuraling the mothership? Now YOUR units are cloaked.
Just make sure to take out any observers... don't want them to be able to see your now cloaked infester...
On February 05 2011 22:12 MorroW wrote: no composition in zvp can beat a toss army with mothership in it, its nice to have dreams tho
yeaaaaah someone who finally feels my pain I've been working so hard on my build and unit composition only to find the end boss unbeatable... vortex and splash needs to be reworked thats not working as intended that's just another free win card for brotoss
You are talking about the archon toilet/vortex to storm right? know that banelings work wonders in vortex.
Hmmmm seems like a lot of micro, but at the same time immortal ultralisks sounds terrifying to me. I still think a terran could handle this with marine/marauder/tank/banshee none of which would be very hard to get or produce. Im not saying its not a beastly idea but your time frame to abuse this seemingly invincible force might not be as large as you want or need it. I could see you using this late game to destroy the terrans 3rd, as ive seen a replay from a thread where mass ultras took down a PF on the raised middle ground of Jungle Basin and then beat a BC tech switch! If you used this late game strategy to deny a 3rd, and then tech switched to mass mutas and starved the terran i could see it very effectively used.
Hmmmm seems like a lot of micro, but at the same time immortal ultralisks sounds terrifying to me. I still think a terran could handle this with marine/marauder/tank/banshee none of which would be very hard to get or produce. Im not saying its not a beastly idea but your time frame to abuse this seemingly invincible force might not be as large as you want or need it. I could see you using this late game to destroy the terrans 3rd, as ive seen a replay from a thread where mass ultras took down a PF on the raised middle ground of Jungle Basin and then beat a BC tech switch! If you used this late game strategy to deny a 3rd, and then tech switched to mass mutas and starved the terran i could see it very effectively used.
1) For those of you who think that ultras on their own can beat toss ball anyway, I say it only does some damage and then dies specially against some immortals/archons, previously it only worked if you had massive advantage ( you can reinforce and fight again fast). 2) for those of you who think that 5-7 queens will do, 24 is overkill: I prefer to have 6ultras and 24 queens, than 16 ultras and 5 queens. Remember if transfused right every full energy queen means ultra has 1 more chance in life. 24 queens with 6 ultras is theoretical the equivalent fighting power of 30ultras minus the time ultras spend moving to replace dead ones. Remember even if you had 30 ultras between 6-8 will be fighting at any given time at best. 3) the main point of the thread is to have an effective efficient fighting force end game. if you choose to get there my way, you can hold any push (including 2 colossi) with lings/roaches/splines/infestor/queens. remember queen shoot collosi (air) at range 7. you make queens early so they getter energy for first big fight with ultras. in general, fungal is better vs terran, INf terran is better against toss. 5) if you want to use queen/hydras. than the goal of the queens is to tank and transfuse themseves not hydras. the problem is a) getting them in position. b) cannot fight 1 inch off creep. (with ultra queens, ultra can travel alitle outside creep staying in range of transfuse) c) In big fights your tanks(queens) will die so fast you won’t have time to transfuse. Ultras have 500hp, you have more time to heal ultra before it dies d) HT/ghost have much easier time picking queens (much closer). 6) immortal/zealots is hard to fight (it’s the other theoretical hard counter) but adding just a few banelings will turn the tide off battle dramatically, as your lings will eat and tank the immortals. 7) if you can force Immortal zealots, a tech switch to Mutas/BL will be game winning. remember the ultimate build is to have BL together with your Ultra queen + infestors, maybe some banelings too. Than truly your force will be invincible (or at least before the Mother ship shows) broodlings will replace your lings role + they do more initial damage + they are limitless. Queens can heal BL/ultras. 8) 15+ queens + ovi creep can spread creep like small pox. 9) HT and ghosts are the only hard counter, yes i do not claim that this army composition is invincible, but if u can force them to mass those gas heavy units u should be able to tech switch or beat their armies with your traditional army more easily. 10) Mothership its the most annoying thing that can happen to you. you have basically 2 choicse. the safe bet is to make 12 corrupters to snipe it before they get the corrupters down and then engage, or if the MS is leading the pack, fungal the front lines, NP and send their own unit to the Void, trow all your infested terran around his army/vortex, send in some banelings in vortex (feed them their own medicine) engage full force, IF you pull it off perfectly you should get the maximum satisfaction as you should totally own them. Else return to the drawing board! recently I tried adding around 12-16 infestors to my main army if I suspect MS, if you can throw all your inf terran, that will be an army of its own. But you should click like 1000apm for a few seconds.
On February 05 2011 22:12 MorroW wrote: no composition in zvp can beat a toss army with mothership in it, its nice to have dreams tho
yeaaaaah someone who finally feels my pain I've been working so hard on my build and unit composition only to find the end boss unbeatable... vortex and splash needs to be reworked thats not working as intended that's just another free win card for brotoss
You are talking about the archon toilet/vortex to storm right? know that banelings work wonders in vortex.
Holy shit. I'll be trully impressed when someone does the neural-baneling toilet.
Queens are good[everyone know this] but they are worst than hydra because they mve so slow off creep. Say you nydus or whatever or even spam 5xcreep tumor down, it'll take a while for the creep to spread and the queens can't run fast enough off creep.
people seem to be complaining about how immobile this build is because of the limitations of the queen but i think the idea is is that you're going to be PUMPING queens out like there's no tomorrow, so i HIGHLY doubt you'll lack the creep spread. i mean, when i used to play zerg, i remember having nearly 20 active creep tumors because that extra queen you kept around for laying creep tumors was always ready to spread creep. everytime you do a wave of inject larva on every hatchery you have, you'll be putting down a creep tumor with your extra queen. and then it just goes on from there because you'll have more and more active creep tumors (active meaning that they can place another one)
you don't have to have full energy just wasting away when you can just drop a creep tumor while you wait weeks for your ultras to pop. i sometimes go two extra creep queens because i accidently make an extra and the creep spread gets extremely out of control. The opponent doesn't even have enough time to snipe all of them because there's just so many. now imagine like 4 or 5 or 10 creep queens. trust me, you'll cover the map in no time.
for those of you who still more replays to get convinced, I made this great game vs terran who got extra expension, in first big fight its basicaly a trade off he had too many tanks, i miss clicked + ran out of energy. but its the final fight which is a total ownage 21 marines, 27 Mauroders, 13 tanks, 3 thors, 2 Med, 3 vickings. 7250 3000 against 4 infestors, 20 lings, 17 queens, 6 ultras, 6 Broodlords, 2 corrupters. 7350 3500.
remaining 1infestor, 17 queens, 6 ultras, 6 BL, 2 Corrupter. total loss for terran, 800 450 loss for zerg.
Mass tanks 12+ is a problem for this build and you should obviously add BL if only just to unsiege them. Queen+ ultra +BL+ infestor with some lings is a total ownage!
i think one thing that might encourage ultra play vs toss is the fact that they pop force fields. I'm not exactly a strategic mastermind but it seems like any time I go roach/hydra they get torn up by force fields - so if it's the late game, why not mix in some ultras? And queens too, of course, since they are my new favorite unit.
I tried to do queen/ultra in mid game in gold league and it went pretty well. Because my apm is about 70 that transfuse isn't pretty good when u try to keep up 10 ultras, but in low numbers it was amazing
I have tried using this as zerg and I really crushed my opponent without losing much so i've confident that in certain situations it's a good composition.
As a terran player i look on the positive side of creativity. Now ghost will actually have a place in the terran army in tvz, which may provoke more tactical play including nukes
And I definitely think the future of zerg includes more than a queen a hatch and 1 spreading creep, early game can be actually be the key to stopping the dreaded 4 gate push PvZ and can help spread creep super fast. Late game combo with (Day9 daily viewership) "beefy" units
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana...
You may want to watch day9's most recent funday monday.
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana...
You may want to watch day9's most recent funday monday.
How the **** does it weaken your economy when you aren't using ANY larvae to build queens, so you can dedicate it to drones only. Think a lil'
The great thing about using queens to defend early rushes (and day9's video shows early queens stopping a 4 gate with proper transfuses/roaches) is that no larvae are used in the process. You can use all of that time for drones drones drones. This also protects you from phoenix harass/stargate builds.
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana...
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
I suggest u try again with a banana...
You may want to watch day9's most recent funday monday.
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
Watched ROOTCatz games and we can't really say how often he tryed because i'm sure he did not send the replays where he failed. Played 2 Times against Ultra / Queens and i'm never making the protoss "deathball" . I try to focus on Gateunits + 4-5 immortals + archons and HT and the Zerg had not really a chance... . FB on queens and immos + archons one hit an ultra.
On February 05 2011 13:02 tuestresfat wrote: I'm a huge advocate for any unorthodox strategy that makes use of previously thought to be unviable (or just really bad) units.
This is possibly one of them. Maybe not "tech straight to pure ultras and mass queens in that exact ratio", but it's the general idea that I like.
Keep it up OP.
WORKER RUSH FTW!
Anyways, Isnt this the assumption that the toss doesnt have more VR's than collossi / immortal? because i know that a voidray can take on 2 queens, and queens take FOREVER to make and are replaced dreadfully slow compared to a chronoboosted stargate. Once the queens are taken care of, the ultras are done for
On February 05 2011 13:02 tuestresfat wrote: I'm a huge advocate for any unorthodox strategy that makes use of previously thought to be unviable (or just really bad) units.
This is possibly one of them. Maybe not "tech straight to pure ultras and mass queens in that exact ratio", but it's the general idea that I like.
Keep it up OP.
WORKER RUSH FTW!
Anyways, Isnt this the assumption that the toss doesnt have more VR's than collossi / immortal? because i know that a voidray can take on 2 queens, and queens take FOREVER to make and are replaced dreadfully slow compared to a chronoboosted stargate. Once the queens are taken care of, the ultras are done for
24 queens can take on 20Vrays with a maximum 3-4 casualties if transfused correctly. i wonder what would happen if u replace those queens with hydras...
I have already stated that Hts counter this strat. You have to use banelings (not used often against toss) and or Broodlords.
5 broodlords with queen support took out about 70 supply of units from a terran push without losing any BLs. Also, catz's creep spread by that time was through the roof, he had it literally everywhere.
this strat does not take into consideration that queens are much harder to replace than any other zerg unit, if you lose your queens at some point you will not be able to come back, only if you switch to some other strat
On February 10 2011 06:42 Manimal_pro wrote: this strat does not take into consideration that queens are much harder to replace than any other zerg unit, if you lose your queens at some point you will not be able to come back, only if you switch to some other strat
read well! I said queens are more valuable than your ultras, you can always sacrifice them... but never the queens! LONG LIVE THE QUEENS!! FOR THE SWARM!!
your queens should be safe healing your ultra/BL unless you get massive feedback.. than you have been countered, else it would have been a thread about OP zerg... which wil not happen anytime soon...
Why you don't see Queens in army = they require creep which any above average player will make sure the Zerg opponents creep highway is kept at a minimum at all times.
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana...
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
I suggest u try again with a banana...
You may want to watch day9's most recent funday monday.
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
I suggest u try again with a banana...
As full of love that i am with our queens. I think you should also try to reconsider yourself and your self-esteem a little.
In almost all the replay you've submitted you talked about the ubber new strategy, how strong and ubber your play is. Of course, that ubber strat' you have found and nobody ever used. How pathetic master player are, how you did understand what other don't etc...I've already express how borderline it feels imo.
Let me just say you didn't create shit. You just use some units with success that other have also used before. Your games are not relevant at all about any good strat', there are about a good end game composition. Our ( diamond and almost 90% of master ) skill sux and the games we played can't be used as proof of anything expect ideas and thoughts about the game.
I really like the idea of mass queen, since the beta, i discover that in Zelnic's ZvZ day J daily. And i'm pretty sure some crazy players have used it before ( specially since queen have seen their of creep movement nerfed so hard way before that Day 9 show ).
3/3 Queen/Ultra can't do shit against a 200/200 3/3pure mech army (tanks+thors+vikings). I tried it in the unit tester, when you are facing 20+ fully upgraded siege tanks, transfusion becomes a joke.
On February 04 2011 10:51 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Did you know that there already exist zerg army compositions that are very hard to beat? The problem is getting there. It's so hard to tech to ultras under constant aggression, massing queens while achieving the tech is ludicrous. Certainly, at your level, where absolutely nothing happens in the early and midgame, it's an achievable task but better players will roflstomp you.
Did you know that there doesnt exist a zerg army composition that are very hard to beat? Both terran and protoss has 200/200 unit comps that are unbeatable at very high lvl (masters 3200+) for zerg. But maybe "at your lvl" you dont get "roflstomped" by good players.
Diamond 2800, can't get in Masters and I admit the reason is that I disconnect a lot and I lose to all fast pools (I always FE, IDGAF about losing occasional games). It ruins streaks that you need.
I used protoss death balls, and I admit, it's friggin' strong. If you're just insulting my league, then please don't post in these forums.
Protoss Colossi death ball is beaten by ultras or bl + speedling support, but void ray/colossi is a lot stronger, but however, can still be beaten (way hard though, not friggin' unbeatable) by large maps with 300 food push + t3 tech. I seen occasional replays of this, but on small maps I agree that it IS unbeatable, but on large maps it's not the same.
So, saving up larvae and having so many resources from being maxed is not enough to spam ultras? For queens, you should be making them as soon as you see some void rays. They're ALWAYS good as AA, and can tank damage. This is commonly accepted by TL already.
edit: Insulting me then quickly editing your post to make yourself sound more caring? Hmm.
On February 04 2011 10:34 Skinnyowllegs wrote: why are you even disgussing this build when there is no way in hell it can even be achieved at highlvl play?
Because this is late-game? Read, please.
Read what I said instead -.-
It's hard to get to, but it's not like there's "no way in hell" it can be achieved. When you're on multiple bases with macro hatches you can get a lot of queens, and queens make larvae --> lots of ultras.
This is why it's late-game, because it takes long to get to. It's not easy, but it's possible.
(in higher level it's possible because of the above)
It is actually impossible at pro level, since the transition from e.g. roach hydra corruptor (vs protoss) in midgame to suddenly having 20 queens and ultras is impossible. If you cant see this then you should stop arguing against.
1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana...
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
I suggest u try again with a banana...
You may want to watch day9's most recent funday monday.
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
I suggest u try again with a banana...
As full of love that i am with our queens. I think you should also try to reconsider yourself and your self-esteem a little.
In almost all the replay you've submitted you talked about the ubber new strategy, how strong and ubber your play is. Of course, that ubber strat' you have found and nobody ever used. How pathetic master player are, how you did understand what other don't etc...I've already express how borderline it feels imo.
Let me just say you didn't create shit. You just use some units with success that other have also used before. Your games are not relevant at all about any good strat', there are about a good end game composition. Our ( diamond and almost 90% of master ) skill sux and the games we played can't be used as proof of anything expect ideas and thoughts about the game.
I really like the idea of mass queen, since the beta, i discover that in Zelnic's ZvZ day J daily. And i'm pretty sure some crazy players have used it before ( specially since queen have seen their of creep movement nerfed so hard way before that Day 9 show ).
So please, reconsider your position a little.
I never claimed that my strat is the ubber strat or my play is the ubber play.. you have trouble interpreting statements. I clearly said that my unit composition can smash "Standard" protoss/terran ball of death. You can try it if you like. and yeah death balls happen end game (where zerg has most trouble if not ahead by a margin) and this is clearly an end game unit composition. In my replays I used an unorthodox oppening to demonstrate that although behind, zerg can win if you have the "right" unit composition. Im sure you have been using mass queens all along but just find that toss ball is unstopable unless you have 2+ bases. next time you wana slam another players idea, I suggest u try it first... I guess some master players did try it and decided to make it a day[9] edition.
On February 10 2011 11:47 Terranium wrote: 3/3 Queen/Ultra can't do shit against a 200/200 3/3pure mech army (tanks+thors+vikings). I tried it in the unit tester, when you are facing 20+ fully upgraded siege tanks, transfusion becomes a joke.
yeah I already said that mass Siege tanks 12+ is a problem. all you need is a few Broodlords if only to force unsiege. than it will be a complete massacre the other way. if you dont believe than watch my first replay. and yeah gl killing My BLs with 6-8 vickings.
On February 10 2011 21:26 DiranMan wrote: Im sure you have been using mass queens all along but just find that toss ball is unstopable unless you have 2+ bases. next time you wana slam another players idea, I suggest u try it first...
See ?
I never said anything against that composition or about my personal experience with it, i always loved mass queen since the beta. All i said was about your tone and how pretentious you felt to me in the game you submited and more and more with your comments. But your reaction show to me why this thread is just bullshit forum wars instead of a "let's think/ talk about possible stuff".
Anyway, we have a new mass queen topic every two weeks, let's just wait for the next one to be more constructive.
I tried this strat (in a 2v2, I dindn't have time for more), and it was simply awesome!!! My ally was Terran, and he was badly hurt from previous attacks, so my army ALONE (with this strat) dealt with both the Terran ennemies. They had a thor/battlecruiser army: their thors evaporated agains my ultras, and my queens forced the battlecruisers to go back to their base. Eventually, some corruptors + more ultras and queens won me the game, since it became a 1v2
Thank you for this awesome post, it really helped, i'll make sure to try it out a lot ^^
On February 10 2011 21:26 DiranMan wrote: Im sure you have been using mass queens all along but just find that toss ball is unstopable unless you have 2+ bases. next time you wana slam another players idea, I suggest u try it first...
See ?
I never said anything against that composition or about my personal experience with it, i always loved mass queen since the beta. All i said was about your tone and how pretentious you felt to me in the game you submited and more and more with your comments. But your reaction show to me why this thread is just bullshit forum wars instead of a "let's think/ talk about possible stuff".
Anyway, we have a new mass queen topic every two weeks, let's just wait for the next one to be more constructive.
Well try to make a constructive criticism rather than attacking the people behind the ideas. you will enjoy more and contribute to the site by making it a better thread. Obviously some people are finding it extremely useful so they can't be all wrong or total noobs can they?
Just to tell you: I didn't steal or copy your strat mate. My intention was to post my composition of units which usually works fine against the Toss-ball of death ;-) My strat also focuses more on the Infestor instead of Ultras.. [besides, the first time I saw a Queen for Transfusion was on some Youtube vid during beta and as far as I remember, it was TLO who had done it]
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
I suggest u try again with a banana...
You may want to watch day9's most recent funday monday.
I suppose Some master players will start using this composition late game since it has been used by pro gamers (after they read my post). while just 1 week ago they were insulting me and my league position disregarding my strat/army composition as fantasies...
I guess some people are made to make inventions and others are competent in using them
I suggest u try again with a banana...
Ack, the quoting system is trolling us DiranMan. I didn't write that. Someone said
"1. I didnt edit any of my posts. 2. Yes I am insulting your league cause I dont think that anyone other than the top tier of players should state opinions as facts. 3. spamming queens non stop in midgame weakens your army and economy to that point that you outright lose the game against good players (top masters).
Nice try, but no banana..."
and i was replying that the person that wrote the above quote should watch the last funday monday, cause mass queens can definitely work.
Somehow the quote i replied to, merged with my reply. I actually think this strat u came up with is awesome! I dunno how i got quoted dissing it. Quoting system fail.
I actually tried a very similar build to this a few weeks ago in some customs. Worked really well lategame. But i did find it rather difficult getting there in most games.
Thank you for trying and liking my strat. liquid TLO might have tried it during betta times when queens moved fast off creep. But I did not know that when I came up with my army composition/strat. besides I searched the forums and found no article on ultra-queens. I watch many pro games and never saw a mass queen build supported by Ultra/BL. I also I never saw the vid of mass queens TLO made. I don’t know how many queens he used, but I doubt he use more than 12. I have found that the ideal composition for 200/200 army when having 60 drones is: 7Ultras, 24lings, 16Banelings, 6 broodlords, 24queens, 3infestors. You should literally roll over almost any army composition with this. Only heavy feedback/emp with the correct balanced army can handle this. don’t forget that us zergs have the fast reinforce advantage as well. some will argue that 24 queens is overkill, i disagree, you have to remember that each queen can keep an ultra 1 more time alive, or 2 times a BL. the added advantage is that ultras actually stay and deal massive damage rather than make a death dance. also your queens will be your AA. Note that I find very little use of hydras in my build. as they are expensive and fragile, queens can do about 65% the DPS of hydras while can tank enormously better + transfuse/spread creep+no gas no larva. Roaches are you early to mid-game main army together with lings and infestors. late game they have no place as they are not supply efficient and mess up terribly with ultras, besides you have already too much to handle so no need the extra burden of controlling them separately.
On February 10 2011 07:57 Parra wrote: Why you don't see Queens in army = they require creep which any above average player will make sure the Zerg opponents creep highway is kept at a minimum at all times.
Yes and 20 queens with overlords wont be able to spread creep efficiently.
Aww wish i could see some pictures. :O Ya i have noticed from team games that ultralisks can be super powerful, with queens healing them that would be very scary. It would think it would be rare to be able to get this composition in 1v1
On February 12 2011 07:10 terran151 wrote: Aww wish i could see some pictures. :O Ya i have noticed from team games that ultralisks can be super powerful, with queens healing them that would be very scary. It would think it would be rare to be able to get this composition in 1v1
How about Queen/bloord/roach/infestor combo? Beyond the fact that you are going to need multiple tech paths to deal with this (T3 HTs for the queens, which are useless against Roach, and either Immortals or Void Rays for the Roaches), but the power comes from how hard it is going to be to take down the Bloords. Queens are pretty strong against Void Rays, and you can absolutely spam Infested Terran to take them down. Meanwhile, good fungal growths can stop Stalkers from blink-sniping your Bloords.
Of course, Toss can counter by mass feedbacking any Infestors and then going blink stalker/immortal. But even then, one or two fungal growths can stop a lot of an army, allowing for queens to transfuse, and that many HTs are really going to eat into production.
Idk, i'm not high enough level to really try this out, anyone else wanna give it a shot?
On February 13 2011 03:26 TNine wrote: How about Queen/bloord/roach/infestor combo? Beyond the fact that you are going to need multiple tech paths to deal with this (T3 HTs for the queens, which are useless against Roach, and either Immortals or Void Rays for the Roaches), but the power comes from how hard it is going to be to take down the Bloords. Queens are pretty strong against Void Rays, and you can absolutely spam Infested Terran to take them down. Meanwhile, good fungal growths can stop Stalkers from blink-sniping your Bloords.
Of course, Toss can counter by mass feedbacking any Infestors and then going blink stalker/immortal. But even then, one or two fungal growths can stop a lot of an army, allowing for queens to transfuse, and that many HTs are really going to eat into production.
Idk, i'm not high enough level to really try this out, anyone else wanna give it a shot?
Untill you got your ultras out you need roaches to survive, you can heal some of them too in fight as the fights are not that large in particular. good luck healing them in a 200/200 fight... roaches are not supply effective late game so dont use them. the single most supply effective unit for zerg is the baneling! period. roaches are on the other hand of the spectrum. so no I dont like roaches late game.
EPT
I've been working so hard on my build and unit composition only to find the end boss unbeatable... vortex and splash needs to be reworked thats not working as intended that's just another free win card for brotoss
