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The reasons why you lost that game are scattered throughout this thread. I've gathered them for you:
On February 03 2011 02:36 Arcanefrost wrote:
When you pushed you had no sentries, you absolutely need them. If you have like 9 sentries with your big push I think the game ends right there...
...Also you needed upgrades so badly. This would have made a huge difference.
You need forcefield and upgrades.
On February 03 2011 04:51 ZeromuS wrote:
While I'm not quite at your level I have had a lot of success being very religious about getting my upgrades. I usually get attack first followed by armour then the next 2 attacks right away without stopping.
The upgrades allow your colossus to really hurt the ground forces and reduce the effectiveness of a resupply.
Upgrades.
On February 03 2011 05:09 kungfu wrote:
# - Little to no map presence. Sure you got your part of the map nailed down nicely but you had relatively little information on what the zerg was doing. You didn't know when his spire went up, you had no idea if he was double evo'ing, in fact you had no idea that he'd grabbed the middle gold! You sat on your army from 12-18 min. It literally just sat at your natural then your third. Protoss armies in this midgame need to be actively moving around the map, poking at xelnaga towers and the edge of what you assume is zerg area of control.
# - Incredibly slow upgrades. You didn't start upgrades until around 15 min. To put this into better context by the time zerg was getting 3/3 for range/armor you had just started +1 weapons. You even engaged your 200/200 army before colossi had the range upgrade. Get upgrades, chrono the shit out of them. It is so important to stay even or be ahead of a zerg's carapace upgrades. ***it should prob be noted that I play a 3 gate expo into a single robo making colossi with 5-6 gates. If I do build a stargate, its almost always on 3 base and for the mothership in pvz. However, I've found upgrades an absolute must in pvz and it creates opportunities where if you get ahead in the weapons vs carapace you have large windows where you attacks are much more efficient.***
No map presence. You were never threatening the Zerg at all - but this was one of the smaller mistakes, and I doubt it made much of a difference on the final outcome.
Upgrades once agan. 0-0-0 fighting 3-3 is very bad for you like others here have said. You don't need to, "Chrono the shit out of them", but they are very important.
On February 03 2011 05:22 Anomandaris wrote:
I started upgrades slowly because I needed all the gas for voidray/colo. I just saw Naniwa vs dimaga and Whitera vs Dimaga and they don't take upgardes as well. I am not saying I don't agree with you, just that if I take upgrades I will have too wait for a fourth base before getting voidrays. The point about starting voidray production later was already mentioned above^^.
This is just incorrect. You need upgrades starting right from two base all the way through the game. Once you have your third you can start with other kinds of tech other than the one robotics making coloss, you don't need to wait for the third base. This is absolutely one thing you have to begin doing.
On February 03 2011 03:47 Anomandaris wrote:
Just a small question: what u do when they bypass ur forcefields with baneling ovies, roach burrow? I feel that a zerg with sufficient corruptors can take my colossi quickly out, after which I am left with a weak army vs roaches.
Banelings in overlords have nothing to do with forcefields really. Roach burrow on the other hand, while they would go under forcefields, they would be doing no damage, and your army could either just kill them (as they move slowly underground, they're not that fast), forcefield again when they repop up, or just focus on other units attacking. Forcefields are also something you must incorporate, you can't not do it an expect to win.
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@ Salv:
I do not totally agree with you. I was already broken on gas going stalker colossi/voidray. If I would make sentries and take upgrades I would never be able too produce voidrays to gain air superiority.
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On February 04 2011 05:25 Anomandaris wrote:
@ Salv:
I do not totally agree with you. I was already broken on gas going stalker colossi/voidray. If I would make sentries and take upgrades I would never be able too produce voidrays to gain air superiority.
Because you make three stargates and was pumping out three void rays at a time. The point is that you can spend all your gas on that, or you can just pump out void rays out of one or two with chronoboost and get upgrades. It's vastly superior to be upgrading your army. Your colossi will die if he wants them to, he can just focus them down. If all you have left after that is a 0-0-0 army against his 3-3 army you will stand absolutely no chance. No matter what your gateway army is inferior, but you can even it up with good upgrades, forcefields, and guardian shields.
What you're doing is equivalent to just making a pile of colossi with no upgrades and attacking. If it works it's great, but your sacrificing your late game so much because your units are pitiful against what he has now.
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Ok so i'm no master, and you are miles better than me. However i can comment on a few things from watching the replay that I have been told by InControl and Response in my coaching sessions/conversations that would make you even better in this matchup. Feel free to dismiss what i'm saying at your liesure, but hopefully you give it some thought.
1. In the beginning, you could have delayed that expo a little more by just dropping a pylon and being done with it. You spent a lot of actions and effort just microing that probe around. What I've been told is just drop the pylon there and know for sure it's going to delay the hatch. You can cancel it if it's getting hacked on by zerglings, but at least force him to take it down. Not a huge deal, but just something to think about.
2. Sentries. I don't know how many times I have been told that I lost due to not enough sentries. Cost for cost without forcefields and guardian shield it's incredibily difficult for protoss to beat a zerg army. Sentries are the x factor in our army. Don't give up on them just becuase they can be burrowed under. While burrowed they do zero damage AND can still be attacked if you have an obs.
3. Upgrades. It's been pointed out here already, and I get the same advice from the pros, you must must must have them. Maybe not if you are in a dogfight for every ounce of army, but you had plenty of time where you were just doing standard macro/poking aggression/creep tumor clearing, etc. That's prime upgrading time. It's a standard practice for zerg to get 2 evos for upgrades, you simply cannot compete head to head if you are at 0-0. I've been told to start +1 attack shortly after taking my natural and look to be at around +2/+1 by the time my third is being taken.
4. Scouting. You did a good job of keeping your army active and poking, and you got some good scouting info from that, but I think with a little more info you could have had great feel for where/what the zerg army was at key points in time or where he might be weak to an attack. Hallucinate has been a massive help for me on this, pop out a phoenix or two and run it around and you can see exactly what's going on very quickly. For example his gold base had no spines and he only had 7 corruptors at 16:10 and his army was at his naturay, but when you attacked at 18:30 he was TOTALLY ready for it, and his army was in position to defend. He saw you coming, and had 19 corruptors and 9 (NINE!!!) spines and he was easily able to flank you because you had no FF. That exchange was not positive for you, as i'm sure you are aware.
5. Composition. Obviously more sentries, but also I'd look to have colossi/VR in more equal #s. Sure Void Ray's "Counter (tm)" corruptors and corruptors are 'weak' against them. However a void ray is still a corruptor target, and corruptors are much cheaper and easier to build. The advice i've heard is the answer to mass corruptors is not more corruptor targets, it's mass ground. Make him wish he did't have 40 food worth of corruptors. Also, in general overcommitting to any one tech (i.e. 3 stargates and not a lot of other production buildings) is dangerous against zerg due to how flexibile they can be. Having more gateways would have allowed you the flexibility to warp in more ground units vs spending money on VR late game as well.
Anyway, hopefully i'm not coming across as superior, because i'm not trying to say i'm better than you at any of these things. Just trying to use what i've learned to analyze what you did and how you can be even better.
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The voidray into colossi strat is ok but you really shouldn't be making too many voidrays.
Voidrays don't really counter corruptors, they are about cost even. Making too many voidrays also sucks because they are less likely to get charged then so only make a few and then focus more on a ground army.
The reasons to start with voids are:
- stopping them from booming as hard by forcing them into some defensive units
- protecting yourself from roach + speedling attacks
- scouting what they are up to, potentially knock down their 3rd.
- killling creep tumors
- preventing mutalisks
They are however NOT a really effective unit to mass for your deathball. By making too many you take away one huge disadvantage corruptors have: they only attack air. Having a relatively small amount of voids and colossi is good because it makes it hard for them make an appropiate number of corruptors, if they make too few you can focus the corruptors with your stalkers and keep your colossi alive. If they make too many you ignore the corruptors and simply win on the ground.
What i usually do is start off with the standard expo -> voidray -> colossus opening but then gradually switch into stalker, immortal, zealot, templar. Constantly keep track of the corruptor numbers they have and try to switch when he is really overloading on them, which usually happens when you have 4 to 5 colossi. The twilight council is eventually imperative for blink and +2 attack anyways so storm isn't too far off then. DT can also be nice but are more a surprise tactic, only use them when they didn't get spore crawlers against your voids.
Finally the archon toilet is indeed a very effective lategame strategy. The mothership is a great way to get an advantage in a PvZ that is in a semideadlock (split map on LT for example). Vortex + any kind of splash effect can simply demolish zerg ground forces and isn't too hard to do actually.
Also I disagree with most others. Upgrades are NOT that important in PvZ for P. Upgrades benefit P very little as stalkers go from 14 to 15 and sentries do abysmal damage anyway. Colossi also don't change their critical hits against hydra's which is what they usually target. Eventually you do need upgrades but it is definately not needed to rush them. Generally i get the forge after taking my 3rd unless i forge FE'd ofcourse.
I really wish everyone would STOP saying voidrays counter corruptors. Every idiot who said that should just open the unit tester and test equal cost of voidrays vs corruptors. With use of corruption
corruptors actually win slightly...
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In my opinion I would say investigate a unit comp of Immortal/HT. It's easier to manage than colossus/VR and is just as effective. It comes out cheaper both in mineral/gas, in time spent to mass, is much easier to replace, and individual losses aren't as devastating.
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With colossi/voids, once you're around the 200 supply it's also a good idea to add a few HT to storm stacked corruptors, with a mothership i can't think of a deadlier army.
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Be aware that the 300 food push of Zerg is actually quite bad for the Zerg if there's no out right win/utterly debilitating damage and you've been macro'ing hard. The apex of 300 food pushing is lowering your drone count to about 50-60 and making delay crawlers.
If the Protoss is on 2.5-3 fully saturated bases and hasn't lost critical production, the Protoss should be ahead. Also, if they Zerg overkills with Corruptors then you're at an advantage, if you haven't been 2 robo Colossi'ing it up that is. This is because you get enough colossi to do great damage to the Zerg ground army, but still have enough gateway units, i.e. Stalkers, to kill the Zerg's army, which is replete with 40 worthless food of Corruptors. Sometimes I don't even attack the Corruptors just for the fact that the zerg army will be utterly pathetic with so many useless units, and that Zerg cannot keep up Broodlord/cannon fodder production with the measly 50-60 drones. If the Zerg drones up then you can take the advantage of having both a superior frontal assault force, and the fact that Stalkers are so hilariously mobile.
Oh, I almost forgot, do not try to refill your army with Colossi after getting thrashed, try to have Templar tech and charge, because Zealot/Templar/Archon become AMAZINGLY cost efficient vs Zerg when in small confrontations!
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On February 04 2011 10:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Be aware that the 300 food push of Zerg is actually quite bad for the Zerg if there's no out right win/utterly debilitating damage and you've been macro'ing hard. The apex of 300 food pushing is lowering your drone count to about 50-60 and making delay crawlers.
If the Protoss is on 2.5-3 fully saturated bases and hasn't lost critical production, the Protoss should be ahead. Also, if they Zerg overkills with Corruptors then you're at an advantage, if you haven't been 2 robo Colossi'ing it up that is. This is because you get enough colossi to do great damage to the Zerg ground army, but still have enough gateway units, i.e. Stalkers, to kill the Zerg's army, which is replete with 40 worthless food of Corruptors. Sometimes I don't even attack the Corruptors just for the fact that the zerg army will be utterly pathetic with so many useless units, and that Zerg cannot keep up Broodlord/cannon fodder production with the measly 50-60 drones. If the Zerg drones up then you can take the advantage of having both a superior frontal assault force, and the fact that Stalkers are so hilariously mobile.
Oh, I almost forgot, do not try to refill your army with Colossi after getting thrashed, try to have Templar tech and charge, because Zealot/Templar/Archon become AMAZINGLY cost efficient vs Zerg when in small confrontations!
Eh not really, the concept of the 300 food push is similar to July zerg's play from BW. You opponents economy essentially becomes unimportant because you can out produce them. It starts with one devastating blow, followed by relentless assault that is supported by a high economy / constant larvae injects. The apex is not about lowering drone count, and is not related to your crawler count.
Protoss on 2-3 fully saturated bases = no different. The concept of 300 food push is macro based not micro. How i choose to suicide my units has nothing to do with the 300 food push. I can send half to his third, and half to his second and force his army to juggle between them... It doesn't matter because I am so economically ahead that I can instantly re-produce my army.
Most devastating unit in ZvP = broodlord.
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EPT
