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Hey TL!
I have lately been struggeling with Pvz, especially in the end game. I can't seem to beat zerg.
In the past I have been going colossi/voidray/stalker with much succes, but nowadays I get owned so badly it ain't funny. They go corruptor overkill (like 20 corruptors) and during the battle they mass reinforce with roaches. My colossi/voidray get owned, my stalkers win the battle but get overrun by roach reinforcements.
I am a little confused about what I should do in PvZ endgame now that my style gets defeated so often. I would appreciate any comments about endgame unit composition/strategy.
replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133984-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Note: About my level; both my opponnent and I figure in last eu top200
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Once I got on my 4th base I used to try to match their corruptor production by throwing down a 3rd or even 4th stargate, with very mixed success. Lately I've been going DTs and Motherhip on my 4th. Harass w/ DTs and then later morph them into archons to do the archon toilet with your mothership and so far it seems to work out better.
But a lot of it comes down to positioning and knowing when you can engage or not. Once it gets to the point you cannot match their corruptor production it's better to sit tight in a defensive position and harass with DTs while you get your mothership up.
Some other tricks I use:
1) Forcefield their roach/hydra army off completely, and focus fire their corruptors with your stalkers
2) Hallucinate Colossi/Void Rays to tank corruptor damage (depends on what they are focus firing first, usually they focus fire the colossi first). This is nice since if they focus fire with corruptors they lose a lot of DPS via overkill since corruptor's attack is a projectile. Also FYI Colossi/Void Rays actually take roughly the same amount of hits from corruptors since corruptors do bonus damage to massive (colossi).
3) Cannons help a lot if you do not have air dominance, and doesn't cost you much since you tend to have an excess of minerals at this stage in the game.
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I find this to be my problem in almost all late game PvZ (2600 D). I have found all of my games where I have stomped this zerg play-style is where I do not lose too many sentries in my initial fight. Using forcefields to hold back the wall of roaches (and snipe as many as I can with superior stalker range) has proven tremendously effective for me, since all it takes is time for one warp cycle of a couple well used HTs and the 30+ roaches are easily killable again. + Show Spoiler +If you get to the late game and do not have High Templar tech...well... I'd say your problem's solved
I would suppose, based on that, that sentry use is very important, and to further that, where you keep what's left of your army before the wave of roaches arrive is equally important(somewhere with a small easy-to-forcefield choke screams at me)
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high templar?
sometimes I blindly go corruptors because i get so used the the colossi thing, that it totally throws me off-guard when i see the ht >.<
User was warned for this post
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On February 03 2011 02:14 Skyro wrote:
Once I got on my 4th base I used to try to match their corruptor production by throwing down a 3rd or even 4th stargate, with very mixed success.
I had 3 stargates be he had 20 corruptors  .
Lately I've been going DTs and Motherhip on my 4th. Harass w/ DTs and then later morph them into archons to do the archon toilet with your mothership and so far it seems to work out better.
I used dts succesfully in this game (watch replay) but I feel zerg will learn to counter it (I spine+1spore per base). I think that adding on a mothership would help, I haven't actually tried it. Vortex on the corruptors or half the roach army could work. However mothership builds so slowly, I am afraid it leaves a weak timing in my strat. When get the mothership? Using the dt as archons once the harass is fend off is a good idea tough.
Some other tricks I use:
1) Forcefield their roach/hydra army off completely, and focus fire their corruptors with your stalkers
forcefield get easily countered by drops+ burrow move, both of wich are very common. I prefer spending my gas somewhere else.
2) Hallucinate Colossi/Void Rays to tank corruptor damage (depends on what they are focus firing first, usually they focus fire the colossi first). This is nice since if they focus fire with corruptors they lose a lot of DPS via overkill since corruptor's attack is a projectile. Also FYI Colossi/Void Rays actually take roughly the same amount of hits from corruptors since corruptors do bonus damage to massive (colossi).
Thats really cheesy. i have been doing the same in PvT but it is a bad move if they have detection, which they most iof the time have and should have anyways.
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When you pushed you had no sentries, you absolutely need them. If you have like 9 sentries with your big push I think the game ends right there. Your void rays were too soon imo. They are obviously great, but not so much if you have to cut gateway production in order to get them. I usually get blink and go for some dt harassement when I'm on 3bases, and add 5 stargates when I'm on 4-5 bases. This is around the time where broodlords are likely to pop, ironically you did have sentries then but no void rays. Also you needed upgrades so badly. This would have made a huge difference.
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On February 03 2011 02:31 Anomandaris wrote:I had 3 stargates be he had 20 corruptors .
Yeah which is why I've said I've had very mixed success. The issue is it is very hard to gauge their corruptor production even w/ constant scouting, since they can mass produce so many in such a short period of time. Their only real limitation is their gas.
I used dts succesfully in this game (watch replay) but I feel zerg will learn to counter it (I spine+1spore per base). I think that adding on a mothership would help, I haven't actually tried it. Vortex on the corruptors or half the roach army could work. However mothership builds so slowly, I am afraid it leaves a weak timing in my strat. When get the mothership? Using the dt as archons once the harass is fend off is a good idea tough.
I'm at work so I'll try to check out the replay at home. But also like I said above yes you will probably be vulnerable while waiting for your mothership to come up and build energy for vortex. That's why I use this time to harass with DTs while my army is in a defensive position backed by cannons since I can't be aggressive with my main army during this period.
forcefield get easily countered by drops+ burrow move, both of wich are very common. I prefer spending my gas somewhere else.
Yes but it is still effective. Hydras can't burrow move, and it still delays roaches. And you can always move back and re-forcefield them off.
Thats really cheesy. i have been doing the same in PvT but it is a bad move if they have detection, which they most iof the time have and should have anyways.
It's not really cheesy at all since zerg's only form of mobile detection is overseers which can be instantly sniped by your void rays. Also more overseers means less corruptors by definition due to their gas cost. But most importantly it's FREE since you should be (IMO) getting hallucinate after warpgates anyway and the scouting provided by it is invaluable.
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as a zerg i find most difficult to deal with toss when he waits to get maxed while taking his 4th, using cannons and sentries to hold off my pressure. When you are maxed you can win the ground battle easily, and you should be able to take out at least 1 expansions suiciding your remaining ground force. off of 4 bases you can rebuild a gateway army very fast and once again, relying on cannons to hold off counter attacks while expanding and remaxing again. as long as you are not engaging in the open field when you have a substantial food disadvantage there's no way a zerg can break your army, and spamming cannons + warp ins should be able to defend against two pronged / nydus / drop kind of play. Keep doing this and he will mine out his half of the map way before you do, as your units are far more cost effective.
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btw it helps a lot if you put pressure or even just fake pressure througout the early and early mid game, him having to build units early will result in him getting maxed way later.
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If your opponent has 20 corruptors, stop focusing so hard on Colossi and air units. Transition into Archon/Immortal/Templar. If you do that and have a plan for answering Brood Lords (like flanking blink stalkers), the game is all yours. That unit mix is such a pain in the neck for zerg to deal with because the Archons handle zerg units right on top of your army, Immortals run over the Roaches at range, and Templar deal with Hydras and Infestors rather well. You have to be vigilantly boosting damage upgrades at your Forge, though.
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Problems in your early and mid game aside, the late game composition that zerg was using can be heavily abused by a non-colossus focused comp. When he scouts your robo/colossus and you see his spire going up, be aware that he may be producing too many corruptors. If you keep tabs on his corruptor count, you can use twilight council tech to end the game relatively easily. You dont even need to tech storm. Chargelot/immortal/archon is quite easy to get assuming you have already invested in colossus tech (robo is already there, twilight is already there for attack +2 and +3).
If you feel that you need to stick with the colossus heavy comp, make sure you get FF and cut his ground army - if you lose your colossus and he loses his ground army, your stalkers will win the game right there.
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sentry stalker colossus void ray. You add voids off of 3 or 4 bases off of 2-3 stargates... it's basically an army that cannot die to a 400 food zerg army
if he gets 20 corruptors just make even more void rays.. perhaps add a stargate as void rays are very cost effective against corruptors
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if you don't make colossi, I just make hydras and kill everything you have. you need colossi. storm is a big investment and completely useless against roaches; its really easy for me to switch my composition upon seeing yours while its very hard for you to mass up immortals or colossi.
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also try staying on just 1 robo if you have been double robo'ing. 1 robo is definitely sufficient as you inherently have more gateway units to support and your collosi count should not fluctuate too much.. and if you double robo and get caught off guard by the zerg over making corruptors your army integrity is shot
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Listen to Alejandrisha. I can vouch for his skill in this matchup... I saw him beat Ret and Machine!
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On February 03 2011 03:05 dementrio wrote:
When you are maxed you can win the ground battle easily, and you should be able to take out at least 1 expansions suiciding your remaining ground force. off of 4 bases you can rebuild a gateway army very fast and once again, relying on cannons to hold off counter attacks while expanding and remaxing again. as long as you are not engaging in the open field when you have a substantial food disadvantage there's no way a zerg can break your army, and spamming cannons + warp ins should be able to defend against two pronged / nydus / drop kind of play. K
U are wrong, because protoss can't remax as fast as zerg and on metalopolis. i advice u to watch the replay
If your opponent has 20 corruptors, stop focusing so hard on Colossi and air units.
He only gets his corruptors after scouting voidray+colossi
btw it helps a lot if you put pressure or even just fake pressure througout the early and early mid game, him having to build units early will result in him getting maxed way later.
I did. watch replay please.
sentry stalker colossus void ray. You add voids off of 3 or 4 bases off of 2-3 stargates... it's basically an army that cannot die to a 400 food zerg army
if he gets 20 corruptors just make even more void rays.. perhaps add a stargate as void rays are very cost effective against corruptors
Please watch replay. That is exactly what I did. I repeat: PLEASE WATCH REPLAY BEFORE COMMENTING. Don't give useless advice, which flatly contradicts the replay.
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On February 03 2011 03:35 Anomandaris wrote:
U are wrong, because protoss can't remax as fast as zerg and on metalopolis. i advice u to watch the replay
You don't need to remax as fast. you need to survive while remaxing, and you can do that as long as you do some economic damage when you do push with your maxed army. killing an expansion is enough and very easy to do. another way is aiming at his tech with your push, which is what the mothership play is centered around.
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On February 03 2011 03:37 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:35 Anomandaris wrote:
U are wrong, because protoss can't remax as fast as zerg and on metalopolis. i advice u to watch the replay
You don't need to remax as fast. you need to survive while remaxing, and you can do that as long as you do some economic damage when you do push with your maxed army. killing an expansion is enough and very easy to do. another way is aiming at his tech with your push, which is what the mothership play is centered around.
How can i survive when zerg remaxes and I am left with nearly no army??
Don't forget I play top 200 of eu. When they remax they counterattack and own u badly. Forcefield are useless (burrowmove+drop).
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On February 03 2011 02:36 Arcanefrost wrote:
When you pushed you had no sentries, you absolutely need them. If you have like 9 sentries with your big push I think the game ends right there. Your void rays were too soon imo. They are obviously great, but not so much if you have to cut gateway production in order to get them. I usually get blink and go for some dt harassement when I'm on 3bases, and add 5 stargates when I'm on 4-5 bases. This is around the time where broodlords are likely to pop, ironically you did have sentries then but no void rays. Also you needed upgrades so badly. This would have made a huge difference.
Usefull advice^^. Later voidrays (like when hive finishes, u don't really need them before) and more sentries.
Just a small question: what u do when they bypass ur forcefields with baneling ovies, roach burrow? I feel that a zerg with sufficient corruptors can take my colossi quickly out, after which I am left with a weak army vs roaches.
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you can hold off a 200 food push with around 160 food or even less when you have cannons. what's scary is the continuous reinforcements, but if you killed an expansion he won't be able to do that. have a ton of gateways and you have enough to defend the counter when your push is over. Keep in mind i'm talking when you are on 4+ bases. the typical 3 base maxed push is way easier for zerg to deal with because in that case you are right, you can't keep up with my production.
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EPT
