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Hey TL!
I have lately been struggeling with Pvz, especially in the end game. I can't seem to beat zerg.
In the past I have been going colossi/voidray/stalker with much succes, but nowadays I get owned so badly it ain't funny. They go corruptor overkill (like 20 corruptors) and during the battle they mass reinforce with roaches. My colossi/voidray get owned, my stalkers win the battle but get overrun by roach reinforcements.
I am a little confused about what I should do in PvZ endgame now that my style gets defeated so often. I would appreciate any comments about endgame unit composition/strategy.
replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133984-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Note: About my level; both my opponnent and I figure in last eu top200
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Once I got on my 4th base I used to try to match their corruptor production by throwing down a 3rd or even 4th stargate, with very mixed success. Lately I've been going DTs and Motherhip on my 4th. Harass w/ DTs and then later morph them into archons to do the archon toilet with your mothership and so far it seems to work out better.
But a lot of it comes down to positioning and knowing when you can engage or not. Once it gets to the point you cannot match their corruptor production it's better to sit tight in a defensive position and harass with DTs while you get your mothership up.
Some other tricks I use:
1) Forcefield their roach/hydra army off completely, and focus fire their corruptors with your stalkers
2) Hallucinate Colossi/Void Rays to tank corruptor damage (depends on what they are focus firing first, usually they focus fire the colossi first). This is nice since if they focus fire with corruptors they lose a lot of DPS via overkill since corruptor's attack is a projectile. Also FYI Colossi/Void Rays actually take roughly the same amount of hits from corruptors since corruptors do bonus damage to massive (colossi).
3) Cannons help a lot if you do not have air dominance, and doesn't cost you much since you tend to have an excess of minerals at this stage in the game.
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I find this to be my problem in almost all late game PvZ (2600 D). I have found all of my games where I have stomped this zerg play-style is where I do not lose too many sentries in my initial fight. Using forcefields to hold back the wall of roaches (and snipe as many as I can with superior stalker range) has proven tremendously effective for me, since all it takes is time for one warp cycle of a couple well used HTs and the 30+ roaches are easily killable again. + Show Spoiler +If you get to the late game and do not have High Templar tech...well... I'd say your problem's solved
I would suppose, based on that, that sentry use is very important, and to further that, where you keep what's left of your army before the wave of roaches arrive is equally important(somewhere with a small easy-to-forcefield choke screams at me)
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high templar?
sometimes I blindly go corruptors because i get so used the the colossi thing, that it totally throws me off-guard when i see the ht >.<
User was warned for this post
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On February 03 2011 02:14 Skyro wrote:
Once I got on my 4th base I used to try to match their corruptor production by throwing down a 3rd or even 4th stargate, with very mixed success.
I had 3 stargates be he had 20 corruptors  .
Lately I've been going DTs and Motherhip on my 4th. Harass w/ DTs and then later morph them into archons to do the archon toilet with your mothership and so far it seems to work out better.
I used dts succesfully in this game (watch replay) but I feel zerg will learn to counter it (I spine+1spore per base). I think that adding on a mothership would help, I haven't actually tried it. Vortex on the corruptors or half the roach army could work. However mothership builds so slowly, I am afraid it leaves a weak timing in my strat. When get the mothership? Using the dt as archons once the harass is fend off is a good idea tough.
Some other tricks I use:
1) Forcefield their roach/hydra army off completely, and focus fire their corruptors with your stalkers
forcefield get easily countered by drops+ burrow move, both of wich are very common. I prefer spending my gas somewhere else.
2) Hallucinate Colossi/Void Rays to tank corruptor damage (depends on what they are focus firing first, usually they focus fire the colossi first). This is nice since if they focus fire with corruptors they lose a lot of DPS via overkill since corruptor's attack is a projectile. Also FYI Colossi/Void Rays actually take roughly the same amount of hits from corruptors since corruptors do bonus damage to massive (colossi).
Thats really cheesy. i have been doing the same in PvT but it is a bad move if they have detection, which they most iof the time have and should have anyways.
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When you pushed you had no sentries, you absolutely need them. If you have like 9 sentries with your big push I think the game ends right there. Your void rays were too soon imo. They are obviously great, but not so much if you have to cut gateway production in order to get them. I usually get blink and go for some dt harassement when I'm on 3bases, and add 5 stargates when I'm on 4-5 bases. This is around the time where broodlords are likely to pop, ironically you did have sentries then but no void rays. Also you needed upgrades so badly. This would have made a huge difference.
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On February 03 2011 02:31 Anomandaris wrote:I had 3 stargates be he had 20 corruptors .
Yeah which is why I've said I've had very mixed success. The issue is it is very hard to gauge their corruptor production even w/ constant scouting, since they can mass produce so many in such a short period of time. Their only real limitation is their gas.
I used dts succesfully in this game (watch replay) but I feel zerg will learn to counter it (I spine+1spore per base). I think that adding on a mothership would help, I haven't actually tried it. Vortex on the corruptors or half the roach army could work. However mothership builds so slowly, I am afraid it leaves a weak timing in my strat. When get the mothership? Using the dt as archons once the harass is fend off is a good idea tough.
I'm at work so I'll try to check out the replay at home. But also like I said above yes you will probably be vulnerable while waiting for your mothership to come up and build energy for vortex. That's why I use this time to harass with DTs while my army is in a defensive position backed by cannons since I can't be aggressive with my main army during this period.
forcefield get easily countered by drops+ burrow move, both of wich are very common. I prefer spending my gas somewhere else.
Yes but it is still effective. Hydras can't burrow move, and it still delays roaches. And you can always move back and re-forcefield them off.
Thats really cheesy. i have been doing the same in PvT but it is a bad move if they have detection, which they most iof the time have and should have anyways.
It's not really cheesy at all since zerg's only form of mobile detection is overseers which can be instantly sniped by your void rays. Also more overseers means less corruptors by definition due to their gas cost. But most importantly it's FREE since you should be (IMO) getting hallucinate after warpgates anyway and the scouting provided by it is invaluable.
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as a zerg i find most difficult to deal with toss when he waits to get maxed while taking his 4th, using cannons and sentries to hold off my pressure. When you are maxed you can win the ground battle easily, and you should be able to take out at least 1 expansions suiciding your remaining ground force. off of 4 bases you can rebuild a gateway army very fast and once again, relying on cannons to hold off counter attacks while expanding and remaxing again. as long as you are not engaging in the open field when you have a substantial food disadvantage there's no way a zerg can break your army, and spamming cannons + warp ins should be able to defend against two pronged / nydus / drop kind of play. Keep doing this and he will mine out his half of the map way before you do, as your units are far more cost effective.
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btw it helps a lot if you put pressure or even just fake pressure througout the early and early mid game, him having to build units early will result in him getting maxed way later.
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If your opponent has 20 corruptors, stop focusing so hard on Colossi and air units. Transition into Archon/Immortal/Templar. If you do that and have a plan for answering Brood Lords (like flanking blink stalkers), the game is all yours. That unit mix is such a pain in the neck for zerg to deal with because the Archons handle zerg units right on top of your army, Immortals run over the Roaches at range, and Templar deal with Hydras and Infestors rather well. You have to be vigilantly boosting damage upgrades at your Forge, though.
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Problems in your early and mid game aside, the late game composition that zerg was using can be heavily abused by a non-colossus focused comp. When he scouts your robo/colossus and you see his spire going up, be aware that he may be producing too many corruptors. If you keep tabs on his corruptor count, you can use twilight council tech to end the game relatively easily. You dont even need to tech storm. Chargelot/immortal/archon is quite easy to get assuming you have already invested in colossus tech (robo is already there, twilight is already there for attack +2 and +3).
If you feel that you need to stick with the colossus heavy comp, make sure you get FF and cut his ground army - if you lose your colossus and he loses his ground army, your stalkers will win the game right there.
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sentry stalker colossus void ray. You add voids off of 3 or 4 bases off of 2-3 stargates... it's basically an army that cannot die to a 400 food zerg army
if he gets 20 corruptors just make even more void rays.. perhaps add a stargate as void rays are very cost effective against corruptors
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if you don't make colossi, I just make hydras and kill everything you have. you need colossi. storm is a big investment and completely useless against roaches; its really easy for me to switch my composition upon seeing yours while its very hard for you to mass up immortals or colossi.
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also try staying on just 1 robo if you have been double robo'ing. 1 robo is definitely sufficient as you inherently have more gateway units to support and your collosi count should not fluctuate too much.. and if you double robo and get caught off guard by the zerg over making corruptors your army integrity is shot
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Listen to Alejandrisha. I can vouch for his skill in this matchup... I saw him beat Ret and Machine!
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On February 03 2011 03:05 dementrio wrote:
When you are maxed you can win the ground battle easily, and you should be able to take out at least 1 expansions suiciding your remaining ground force. off of 4 bases you can rebuild a gateway army very fast and once again, relying on cannons to hold off counter attacks while expanding and remaxing again. as long as you are not engaging in the open field when you have a substantial food disadvantage there's no way a zerg can break your army, and spamming cannons + warp ins should be able to defend against two pronged / nydus / drop kind of play. K
U are wrong, because protoss can't remax as fast as zerg and on metalopolis. i advice u to watch the replay
If your opponent has 20 corruptors, stop focusing so hard on Colossi and air units.
He only gets his corruptors after scouting voidray+colossi
btw it helps a lot if you put pressure or even just fake pressure througout the early and early mid game, him having to build units early will result in him getting maxed way later.
I did. watch replay please.
sentry stalker colossus void ray. You add voids off of 3 or 4 bases off of 2-3 stargates... it's basically an army that cannot die to a 400 food zerg army
if he gets 20 corruptors just make even more void rays.. perhaps add a stargate as void rays are very cost effective against corruptors
Please watch replay. That is exactly what I did. I repeat: PLEASE WATCH REPLAY BEFORE COMMENTING. Don't give useless advice, which flatly contradicts the replay.
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On February 03 2011 03:35 Anomandaris wrote:
U are wrong, because protoss can't remax as fast as zerg and on metalopolis. i advice u to watch the replay
You don't need to remax as fast. you need to survive while remaxing, and you can do that as long as you do some economic damage when you do push with your maxed army. killing an expansion is enough and very easy to do. another way is aiming at his tech with your push, which is what the mothership play is centered around.
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On February 03 2011 03:37 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:35 Anomandaris wrote:
U are wrong, because protoss can't remax as fast as zerg and on metalopolis. i advice u to watch the replay
You don't need to remax as fast. you need to survive while remaxing, and you can do that as long as you do some economic damage when you do push with your maxed army. killing an expansion is enough and very easy to do. another way is aiming at his tech with your push, which is what the mothership play is centered around.
How can i survive when zerg remaxes and I am left with nearly no army??
Don't forget I play top 200 of eu. When they remax they counterattack and own u badly. Forcefield are useless (burrowmove+drop).
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On February 03 2011 02:36 Arcanefrost wrote:
When you pushed you had no sentries, you absolutely need them. If you have like 9 sentries with your big push I think the game ends right there. Your void rays were too soon imo. They are obviously great, but not so much if you have to cut gateway production in order to get them. I usually get blink and go for some dt harassement when I'm on 3bases, and add 5 stargates when I'm on 4-5 bases. This is around the time where broodlords are likely to pop, ironically you did have sentries then but no void rays. Also you needed upgrades so badly. This would have made a huge difference.
Usefull advice^^. Later voidrays (like when hive finishes, u don't really need them before) and more sentries.
Just a small question: what u do when they bypass ur forcefields with baneling ovies, roach burrow? I feel that a zerg with sufficient corruptors can take my colossi quickly out, after which I am left with a weak army vs roaches.
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you can hold off a 200 food push with around 160 food or even less when you have cannons. what's scary is the continuous reinforcements, but if you killed an expansion he won't be able to do that. have a ton of gateways and you have enough to defend the counter when your push is over. Keep in mind i'm talking when you are on 4+ bases. the typical 3 base maxed push is way easier for zerg to deal with because in that case you are right, you can't keep up with my production.
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So you're at ~3000 masters?
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On February 03 2011 03:49 mizU wrote:
So you're at ~3000 masters?
3250
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btw I think it was machine who talked about this in one of mrbitter's streams; he said he feels he absolutely needs to prevent P from securing a 4th because when that base is up he thinks the only way he has to win the game is doing baneling drops and multipronged attacks; there was also a game where he played a good P (but not a progamer) and sure enough that 4th got up and he lost to constant void ray colossi and gateway production.
that's the 3k masters authentication for you.
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On February 03 2011 03:55 dementrio wrote:
btw I think it was machine who talked about this in one of mrbitter's streams; he said he feels he absolutely needs to prevent P from securing a 4th because when that base is up he thinks the only way he has to win the game is doing baneling drops and multipronged attacks; there was also a game where he played a good P (but not a progamer) and sure enough that 4th got up and he lost to constant void ray colossi and gateway production.
that's the 3k masters authentication for you.
Ok, changed my mind. I agree with u: I should have secured a 4th base faster, to remax quicklier afterwards.
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Canada13389 Posts
While I'm not quite at your level I have had a lot of success being very religious about getting my upgrades. I usually get attack first followed by armour then the next 2 attacks right away without stopping.
I also like to get blink during (at 50 % done) my second attack upgrade if I about no hydras which often implies spire tech.
The upgrades allow your colossus to really hurt the ground forces and reduce the effectiveness of a resupply. also with quickly doing roaches the stalkers can focus the corrupters down day as zerg often ignores air carapace upgrades and you have 3 atk on the stalkers to kill them quicker.
In addition upon scouting corrupters I like to produce immortals from double robos since the 3 atk goes very fast with them and it deals with the eventual roach resupply efficiently.
hope the suggestions help my pvz went from 35% wlr to closer to 65% over the past week with this kind of play. Just yesterday I went 5 and 0 against zerg.
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forcefield get easily countered by drops+ burrow move, both of wich are very common. I prefer spending my gas somewhere else.
Rofl, I love this. This is great haha. If they burrow. Lets not use the best spell in the game yeah! If they burrow their whole army won't do any dps and just die. I assume you should have around 5 observers flying around late game. Drops? Yah, stalkers>overlords. Forcefields are amazing, when you fight in a choke. There is NOTHING a zerg can d oand just can basically get half his army for free.
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Drop play is getting pretty common on eu server against toss. Baneling drops on mineral lines, or on 200 deathballs are really effective. Watch aAaNerchio, he does it al the time. Stalkers kill ovies slowly. Overlords tank shots.
People have been doing 2 base hydra/roach ling drops in ur main with great succes.
Its not even totally explored yet, but has a lot of potential and has been used against me with great succes,
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On February 03 2011 05:02 Anomandaris wrote:
Drop play is getting pretty common on eu server against toss. Baneling drops on mineral lines, or on 200 deathballs are really effective. Watch aAaNerchio, he does it al the time. Stalkers kill ovies slowly. Overlords tank shots.
People have been doing 2 base hydra/roach ling drops in ur main with great succes.
Its not even totally explored yet, but has a lot of potential and has been used against me with great succes,
Doesn't negate the fact that forcefields are amazing used right in a battle. I guess you don't use forcefields against terran? Because they make one ghost and suddenly all your sentry's are useless? Right? There is more to this game.
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Well I haven't read all the replies so I'm sorry if this has already been said, but here's my take on why you lost.
# - Little to no map presence. Sure you got your part of the map nailed down nicely but you had relatively little information on what the zerg was doing. You didn't know when his spire went up, you had no idea if he was double evo'ing, in fact you had no idea that he'd grabbed the middle gold! You sat on your army from 12-18 min. It literally just sat at your natural then your third. Protoss armies in this midgame need to be actively moving around the map, poking at xelnaga towers and the edge of what you assume is zerg area of control.
# - Incredibly slow upgrades. You didn't start upgrades until around 15 min. To put this into better context by the time zerg was getting 3/3 for range/armor you had just started +1 weapons. You even engaged your 200/200 army before colossi had the range upgrade. Get upgrades, chrono the shit out of them. It is so important to stay even or be ahead of a zerg's carapace upgrades. ***it should prob be noted that I play a 3 gate expo into a single robo making colossi with 5-6 gates. If I do build a stargate, its almost always on 3 base and for the mothership in pvz. However, I've found upgrades an absolute must in pvz and it creates opportunities where if you get ahead in the weapons vs carapace you have large windows where you attacks are much more efficient.***
# - You attacked right as you maxed. You could have sat back and chrono'd out upgrades made tech trees and production facilities. Instead you forced an engagement before the real benefits, imho, of being on 3 base kicked in for you.
All in all if I had to blame one thing for your loss that game. It would be that you did not know the zerg had taken the gold. Meanwhile the zerg had done an outstanding job at constantly poking you to see army composition and stay currently on your expansions.
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If they are going overkill on corruptors and pumping roaches until you dead, you can try switching your colossus production into immortal production with lots of stalkers and it will be able to kill the roaches and just halt void ray production.
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@kungfu: I started upgrades slowly because I needed all the gas for voidray/colo. I just saw Naniwa vs dimaga and Whitera vs Dimaga and they don't take upgardes as well. I am not saying I don't agree with you, just that if I take upgrades I will have too wait for a fourth base before getting voidrays. The point about starting voidray production later was already mentioned above^^.
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On February 03 2011 05:21 Zedex wrote:
If they are going overkill on corruptors and pumping roaches until you dead, you can try switching your colossus production into immortal production with lots of stalkers and it will be able to kill the roaches and just halt void ray production.
immortals produce too slowly
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On February 03 2011 03:47 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:36 Arcanefrost wrote:
When you pushed you had no sentries, you absolutely need them. If you have like 9 sentries with your big push I think the game ends right there. Your void rays were too soon imo. They are obviously great, but not so much if you have to cut gateway production in order to get them. I usually get blink and go for some dt harassement when I'm on 3bases, and add 5 stargates when I'm on 4-5 bases. This is around the time where broodlords are likely to pop, ironically you did have sentries then but no void rays. Also you needed upgrades so badly. This would have made a huge difference.
Usefull advice^^. Later voidrays (like when hive finishes, u don't really need them before) and more sentries. Just a small question: what u do when they bypass ur forcefields with baneling ovies, roach burrow? I feel that a zerg with sufficient corruptors can take my colossi quickly out, after which I am left with a weak army vs roaches.
If he burrows under your ff you can pull your gateway units back and ff him again, your colossi will still do a tun of damage so he cant keep burrow microing. If your colossi died you want to do the same thing, only now youll have to engage him with your gateway units, ff again and pull slightly back, engage again and ff again,etc If he has baneling ovies you simply need to spread your sentries, blings are not really cost effective vs anything else.
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I'm only 2750 master but i think that stalkers are the problem, you got to replace them with void rays if you want to fight head on. You can't afford to let him kill all your void rays, replacing them takes too much time.
2 solutions from there :
1_Turtle on 3 bases with a massive amount of canons to build a pure sentries/colossi/voidray army, don't fight as long as you don't have air dominance. However this solution is weak against drops since you rely on static defense.
2_Use stalkers offensively with blink, trade stalkers for expansions. I don't do it very often but after an army trade, it usually gives time to rebuild enough void rays.
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On February 03 2011 05:23 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 05:21 Zedex wrote:
If they are going overkill on corruptors and pumping roaches until you dead, you can try switching your colossus production into immortal production with lots of stalkers and it will be able to kill the roaches and just halt void ray production. immortals produce too slowly
Not if you have more than 1 robo, and are keeping up with upps.
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On February 03 2011 03:47 Anomandaris wrote:
Just a small question: what u do when they bypass ur forcefields with baneling ovies, roach burrow? I feel that a zerg with sufficient corruptors can take my colossi quickly out, after which I am left with a weak army vs roaches.
You really have to engage in a way that would essentially let you trade your colossi for their entire ground army - then he has useless corruptors around. This requires you to have good forcefields. In the case of baneling drops, its hard to have a sufficient baneling drop, sufficient corruptors, AND a sufficient ground army. Exploit whichever area he is weak in.
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non-stop weapon upgrades as soon as you can. You want your deathball as strong as you can. If you focus on void/collo with your gas, you will get to 200/200 faster but your upgrades will be behind. While if you get upgrades, you might be behind a voidray or two but it's much better for the long run. Yes, I am talking about fleet beacon, twilight, all that. Non-stop upgrades as much as you can while staying alive. Just turtle, so the 1-2 void rays less won't be a problem. 3k+ master zergs are still figuring out how to beat me.
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I just watched the replay and I have to aggree with kungfu:
- literally no upgrades till late game (and then only +1): I think ur army composition was fine since u managed to win the main battles with no ugrades against a zerg who was constantly upgrading. ur remaining forces would have been strong enough to deal with the reinforcements and at least deal some eco damage (with upgrades that is).
- production facilities: you threw down 3 stargates before ur 3rd base eco kicked in (thus not being able to get enough without being outproduced), while being on only 4 gates at that time. Since zerg was also concerned about dealing with ur colossi, u should have anticipated him to mass corruptors which will crush ur voidrays( this slowly changes during mid and late game as u get upgraded blink stalkers and maybe a mothership) .
Also ur gateway count was way too low till endgame where u added gates when u weren't maxed and low on minerals! add gates while u r expanding and in late game when u r maxed and banking minerals.
- map control: u had literally no map control. both passages with their respective xel naga towers where controlled by zerg. Ur opponent did several 2-pronged attacks which could have been intercepted by parts of ur army with ease if u had seen them coming!
furthermore( even so ur opponent did not take advantage of this), u did not have vision of ur own base till very very late in the game when u added 3 more gates at the right side of ur main. A drop or nyduss would have had devastating success!
My PvZ strategy relys on pretty much the same unit composition as urs just with more upgrades and later voidrays. Also, I prefer to get more immortals early midgame to punish a zerg who goes mass corrupters in anticipation of colossi.
Hope this is of any help
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On February 03 2011 02:00 Anomandaris wrote:Hey TL! I have lately been struggeling with Pvz, especially in the end game. I can't seem to beat zerg. In the past I have been going colossi/voidray/stalker with much succes, but nowadays I get owned so badly it ain't funny. They go corruptor overkill (like 20 corruptors) and during the battle they mass reinforce with roaches. My colossi/voidray get owned, my stalkers win the battle but get overrun by roach reinforcements. I am a little confused about what I should do in PvZ endgame now that my style gets defeated so often. I would appreciate any comments about endgame unit composition/strategy. replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133984-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisNote: About my level; both my opponnent and I figure in last eu top200
If you're going collosi + void, you basically have to win air superiority. You can't have a strong gateway army, so if they make enough corruptors to beat your voids, you lose. Either get more voids, or get immortals and templar. With immortal + templar, you have to be very mindful of broodlords and positioning tho. If you lose air control, your only answer to broodlords is bilnk stalkers, so some bases are basically impossible to secure. For example, you can't take the gold on Metalopolis against broodlords without air control.
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the problem is that zerg can secure expansions really fast after both spire and hydra den is up with good creep spread
i am sure countless of protoss players like myself fell just because 1 small vital mistake that got our colossus, and consequentially whole army, killed
those damn colossus are more precious than the ring of the lords!! (LOL bad joke)
and if we spent too much on micro, our macro falls slightly behind
that creep is giving protoss a lot of problems, and killing the tumor is way too slow
we are fighting against time, if zerg gets the expansions up, the most valuable resource is obviously "gas" for those damn corruptors
let's face it, when zerg has a lot of gas and makes no mistakes like protoss do with his army, then we have a pvz battle that is in favor of the zerg on big maps
i mean, i can't expect the zerg to be sloppy with his army attacks just because his units are not as precious as mine
thus, the only effective solution would definitely be the mothership
look, i am not saying that high templar doesn't work, i am not saying matching VR count to corruptor count doesn't work, and i am not saying that dt doesn't work *edit* and im not saying upgrade doesn't work
what i am saying is, when playing against a zerg as equally perfecting his army control, we have to use mother ship
vortex is the only way to go
the time to get mothership will just be a few seconds more than getting HT with storm/amulet
this is not a theory guys
if colossus worked well, it's because zerg didn't get enough corruptors
if ht worked well, it's because zerg didn't get enough roaches/lings
if mass VR worked well, it's because zerg hasn't expand enough
these mistakes are critical and you are a protoss who banks and profit from zerg's mistakes, then good luck to you
i respect our foes and expect them to improve their game as much as we do (we have forge, they have evolution chamber)
there are less posts about zerg complaining about toss's death ball now compare to a while ago(have you guys noticed?)
visual the obvious, but also the implications of the missing...
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The reasons why you lost that game are scattered throughout this thread. I've gathered them for you:
On February 03 2011 02:36 Arcanefrost wrote:
When you pushed you had no sentries, you absolutely need them. If you have like 9 sentries with your big push I think the game ends right there...
...Also you needed upgrades so badly. This would have made a huge difference.
You need forcefield and upgrades.
On February 03 2011 04:51 ZeromuS wrote:
While I'm not quite at your level I have had a lot of success being very religious about getting my upgrades. I usually get attack first followed by armour then the next 2 attacks right away without stopping.
The upgrades allow your colossus to really hurt the ground forces and reduce the effectiveness of a resupply.
Upgrades.
On February 03 2011 05:09 kungfu wrote:
# - Little to no map presence. Sure you got your part of the map nailed down nicely but you had relatively little information on what the zerg was doing. You didn't know when his spire went up, you had no idea if he was double evo'ing, in fact you had no idea that he'd grabbed the middle gold! You sat on your army from 12-18 min. It literally just sat at your natural then your third. Protoss armies in this midgame need to be actively moving around the map, poking at xelnaga towers and the edge of what you assume is zerg area of control.
# - Incredibly slow upgrades. You didn't start upgrades until around 15 min. To put this into better context by the time zerg was getting 3/3 for range/armor you had just started +1 weapons. You even engaged your 200/200 army before colossi had the range upgrade. Get upgrades, chrono the shit out of them. It is so important to stay even or be ahead of a zerg's carapace upgrades. ***it should prob be noted that I play a 3 gate expo into a single robo making colossi with 5-6 gates. If I do build a stargate, its almost always on 3 base and for the mothership in pvz. However, I've found upgrades an absolute must in pvz and it creates opportunities where if you get ahead in the weapons vs carapace you have large windows where you attacks are much more efficient.***
No map presence. You were never threatening the Zerg at all - but this was one of the smaller mistakes, and I doubt it made much of a difference on the final outcome.
Upgrades once agan. 0-0-0 fighting 3-3 is very bad for you like others here have said. You don't need to, "Chrono the shit out of them", but they are very important.
On February 03 2011 05:22 Anomandaris wrote:
I started upgrades slowly because I needed all the gas for voidray/colo. I just saw Naniwa vs dimaga and Whitera vs Dimaga and they don't take upgardes as well. I am not saying I don't agree with you, just that if I take upgrades I will have too wait for a fourth base before getting voidrays. The point about starting voidray production later was already mentioned above^^.
This is just incorrect. You need upgrades starting right from two base all the way through the game. Once you have your third you can start with other kinds of tech other than the one robotics making coloss, you don't need to wait for the third base. This is absolutely one thing you have to begin doing.
On February 03 2011 03:47 Anomandaris wrote:
Just a small question: what u do when they bypass ur forcefields with baneling ovies, roach burrow? I feel that a zerg with sufficient corruptors can take my colossi quickly out, after which I am left with a weak army vs roaches.
Banelings in overlords have nothing to do with forcefields really. Roach burrow on the other hand, while they would go under forcefields, they would be doing no damage, and your army could either just kill them (as they move slowly underground, they're not that fast), forcefield again when they repop up, or just focus on other units attacking. Forcefields are also something you must incorporate, you can't not do it an expect to win.
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@ Salv:
I do not totally agree with you. I was already broken on gas going stalker colossi/voidray. If I would make sentries and take upgrades I would never be able too produce voidrays to gain air superiority.
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On February 04 2011 05:25 Anomandaris wrote:
@ Salv:
I do not totally agree with you. I was already broken on gas going stalker colossi/voidray. If I would make sentries and take upgrades I would never be able too produce voidrays to gain air superiority.
Because you make three stargates and was pumping out three void rays at a time. The point is that you can spend all your gas on that, or you can just pump out void rays out of one or two with chronoboost and get upgrades. It's vastly superior to be upgrading your army. Your colossi will die if he wants them to, he can just focus them down. If all you have left after that is a 0-0-0 army against his 3-3 army you will stand absolutely no chance. No matter what your gateway army is inferior, but you can even it up with good upgrades, forcefields, and guardian shields.
What you're doing is equivalent to just making a pile of colossi with no upgrades and attacking. If it works it's great, but your sacrificing your late game so much because your units are pitiful against what he has now.
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Ok so i'm no master, and you are miles better than me. However i can comment on a few things from watching the replay that I have been told by InControl and Response in my coaching sessions/conversations that would make you even better in this matchup. Feel free to dismiss what i'm saying at your liesure, but hopefully you give it some thought.
1. In the beginning, you could have delayed that expo a little more by just dropping a pylon and being done with it. You spent a lot of actions and effort just microing that probe around. What I've been told is just drop the pylon there and know for sure it's going to delay the hatch. You can cancel it if it's getting hacked on by zerglings, but at least force him to take it down. Not a huge deal, but just something to think about.
2. Sentries. I don't know how many times I have been told that I lost due to not enough sentries. Cost for cost without forcefields and guardian shield it's incredibily difficult for protoss to beat a zerg army. Sentries are the x factor in our army. Don't give up on them just becuase they can be burrowed under. While burrowed they do zero damage AND can still be attacked if you have an obs.
3. Upgrades. It's been pointed out here already, and I get the same advice from the pros, you must must must have them. Maybe not if you are in a dogfight for every ounce of army, but you had plenty of time where you were just doing standard macro/poking aggression/creep tumor clearing, etc. That's prime upgrading time. It's a standard practice for zerg to get 2 evos for upgrades, you simply cannot compete head to head if you are at 0-0. I've been told to start +1 attack shortly after taking my natural and look to be at around +2/+1 by the time my third is being taken.
4. Scouting. You did a good job of keeping your army active and poking, and you got some good scouting info from that, but I think with a little more info you could have had great feel for where/what the zerg army was at key points in time or where he might be weak to an attack. Hallucinate has been a massive help for me on this, pop out a phoenix or two and run it around and you can see exactly what's going on very quickly. For example his gold base had no spines and he only had 7 corruptors at 16:10 and his army was at his naturay, but when you attacked at 18:30 he was TOTALLY ready for it, and his army was in position to defend. He saw you coming, and had 19 corruptors and 9 (NINE!!!) spines and he was easily able to flank you because you had no FF. That exchange was not positive for you, as i'm sure you are aware.
5. Composition. Obviously more sentries, but also I'd look to have colossi/VR in more equal #s. Sure Void Ray's "Counter (tm)" corruptors and corruptors are 'weak' against them. However a void ray is still a corruptor target, and corruptors are much cheaper and easier to build. The advice i've heard is the answer to mass corruptors is not more corruptor targets, it's mass ground. Make him wish he did't have 40 food worth of corruptors. Also, in general overcommitting to any one tech (i.e. 3 stargates and not a lot of other production buildings) is dangerous against zerg due to how flexibile they can be. Having more gateways would have allowed you the flexibility to warp in more ground units vs spending money on VR late game as well.
Anyway, hopefully i'm not coming across as superior, because i'm not trying to say i'm better than you at any of these things. Just trying to use what i've learned to analyze what you did and how you can be even better.
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The voidray into colossi strat is ok but you really shouldn't be making too many voidrays.
Voidrays don't really counter corruptors, they are about cost even. Making too many voidrays also sucks because they are less likely to get charged then so only make a few and then focus more on a ground army.
The reasons to start with voids are:
- stopping them from booming as hard by forcing them into some defensive units
- protecting yourself from roach + speedling attacks
- scouting what they are up to, potentially knock down their 3rd.
- killling creep tumors
- preventing mutalisks
They are however NOT a really effective unit to mass for your deathball. By making too many you take away one huge disadvantage corruptors have: they only attack air. Having a relatively small amount of voids and colossi is good because it makes it hard for them make an appropiate number of corruptors, if they make too few you can focus the corruptors with your stalkers and keep your colossi alive. If they make too many you ignore the corruptors and simply win on the ground.
What i usually do is start off with the standard expo -> voidray -> colossus opening but then gradually switch into stalker, immortal, zealot, templar. Constantly keep track of the corruptor numbers they have and try to switch when he is really overloading on them, which usually happens when you have 4 to 5 colossi. The twilight council is eventually imperative for blink and +2 attack anyways so storm isn't too far off then. DT can also be nice but are more a surprise tactic, only use them when they didn't get spore crawlers against your voids.
Finally the archon toilet is indeed a very effective lategame strategy. The mothership is a great way to get an advantage in a PvZ that is in a semideadlock (split map on LT for example). Vortex + any kind of splash effect can simply demolish zerg ground forces and isn't too hard to do actually.
Also I disagree with most others. Upgrades are NOT that important in PvZ for P. Upgrades benefit P very little as stalkers go from 14 to 15 and sentries do abysmal damage anyway. Colossi also don't change their critical hits against hydra's which is what they usually target. Eventually you do need upgrades but it is definately not needed to rush them. Generally i get the forge after taking my 3rd unless i forge FE'd ofcourse.
I really wish everyone would STOP saying voidrays counter corruptors. Every idiot who said that should just open the unit tester and test equal cost of voidrays vs corruptors. With use of corruption
corruptors actually win slightly...
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In my opinion I would say investigate a unit comp of Immortal/HT. It's easier to manage than colossus/VR and is just as effective. It comes out cheaper both in mineral/gas, in time spent to mass, is much easier to replace, and individual losses aren't as devastating.
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With colossi/voids, once you're around the 200 supply it's also a good idea to add a few HT to storm stacked corruptors, with a mothership i can't think of a deadlier army.
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Be aware that the 300 food push of Zerg is actually quite bad for the Zerg if there's no out right win/utterly debilitating damage and you've been macro'ing hard. The apex of 300 food pushing is lowering your drone count to about 50-60 and making delay crawlers.
If the Protoss is on 2.5-3 fully saturated bases and hasn't lost critical production, the Protoss should be ahead. Also, if they Zerg overkills with Corruptors then you're at an advantage, if you haven't been 2 robo Colossi'ing it up that is. This is because you get enough colossi to do great damage to the Zerg ground army, but still have enough gateway units, i.e. Stalkers, to kill the Zerg's army, which is replete with 40 worthless food of Corruptors. Sometimes I don't even attack the Corruptors just for the fact that the zerg army will be utterly pathetic with so many useless units, and that Zerg cannot keep up Broodlord/cannon fodder production with the measly 50-60 drones. If the Zerg drones up then you can take the advantage of having both a superior frontal assault force, and the fact that Stalkers are so hilariously mobile.
Oh, I almost forgot, do not try to refill your army with Colossi after getting thrashed, try to have Templar tech and charge, because Zealot/Templar/Archon become AMAZINGLY cost efficient vs Zerg when in small confrontations!
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On February 04 2011 10:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Be aware that the 300 food push of Zerg is actually quite bad for the Zerg if there's no out right win/utterly debilitating damage and you've been macro'ing hard. The apex of 300 food pushing is lowering your drone count to about 50-60 and making delay crawlers.
If the Protoss is on 2.5-3 fully saturated bases and hasn't lost critical production, the Protoss should be ahead. Also, if they Zerg overkills with Corruptors then you're at an advantage, if you haven't been 2 robo Colossi'ing it up that is. This is because you get enough colossi to do great damage to the Zerg ground army, but still have enough gateway units, i.e. Stalkers, to kill the Zerg's army, which is replete with 40 worthless food of Corruptors. Sometimes I don't even attack the Corruptors just for the fact that the zerg army will be utterly pathetic with so many useless units, and that Zerg cannot keep up Broodlord/cannon fodder production with the measly 50-60 drones. If the Zerg drones up then you can take the advantage of having both a superior frontal assault force, and the fact that Stalkers are so hilariously mobile.
Oh, I almost forgot, do not try to refill your army with Colossi after getting thrashed, try to have Templar tech and charge, because Zealot/Templar/Archon become AMAZINGLY cost efficient vs Zerg when in small confrontations!
Eh not really, the concept of the 300 food push is similar to July zerg's play from BW. You opponents economy essentially becomes unimportant because you can out produce them. It starts with one devastating blow, followed by relentless assault that is supported by a high economy / constant larvae injects. The apex is not about lowering drone count, and is not related to your crawler count.
Protoss on 2-3 fully saturated bases = no different. The concept of 300 food push is macro based not micro. How i choose to suicide my units has nothing to do with the 300 food push. I can send half to his third, and half to his second and force his army to juggle between them... It doesn't matter because I am so economically ahead that I can instantly re-produce my army.
Most devastating unit in ZvP = broodlord.
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EPT
