EPT[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 31
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:48 scvtear wrote: I just played a Z who did this, even asked him if he copied the build order Travis mentioned and he admitted to it. I held off the rush easily, granted he was a ~2700 dia and I'm a ~2600 masters, the b.o. was executed relatively well. How I stopped it: Standard build up until cyber + 2 gas, when you notice he is throwing down a quick roach warren, you know the larva inject is coming at 5:00 so you have until 5:30-6 min depending on map and positions. After you scout this, throw down a forge, build one cannon at ramp with your zeal and constant chrono out sentries and warpgates. Then throw down 2 more gates when you have resources to. The attack: This part is important! You have to have good FF's and hold off the initial push, the real damage will come with the scouting OL who will give sight into your base. You need to have at least 3 sentries at this point (4 FF's assuming your first sentry was on time), when the OL is close to the cliff, use 2 FF's and push the roaches back from the cliff, then focus down the OL. If you can do this, the rest of the rush is easy to hold off with stalkers and sentries warping in. After this, you're in the clear to expo or robo tech. You'll be up ~10 probes with his expo just being underway. Hope this helps all the tosses out there. REPLAY: http://www.2shared.com/file/8Ys_-BE_/Z_allin_counter_5roachpush.html ur opponent did the build wrong the build is supposed to have 3 roaches at your doorstep by 5 minutes, this is before you dropped the cannon and you only had 1 sentry at that point. the roaches if they arrived at 5 minutes would have forced you to waste force fields also, the build is supposed to have 3 roaches and 24 speedlings at your base by 5:30. your opponent had much less than that. if your opponent did the build correctly you wouldnt have been able to forcefield and those 24 speedlings / 2 roaches would kill your cannon | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On February 03 2011 12:03 travis wrote: It wouldn't be disrespectful if it was in response to me giving you beauty advice. I don't go around telling people how bad they are at things I have no clue about. If I did I would absolutely deserve to be told "wtf man u have no clue what you're talking about". And besides, calling someone ugly isn't at all comparable to saying "they aren't high rated". If one thinks it's comparable to call someone ugly vs call someone "low rated", they have some issues. Of course it's comparable, because you didn't say "they aren't high rated." You said that they suck really badly. Saying they aren't high rated would have been the truth, in a much classier manner. Saying "LOL what a joke" isn't exactly respectful either. | ||
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locohero
Niue11 Posts
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Amirag
Mexico6 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125669-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns As soon as I scouted the roach den I threw the forge assuming he'd go for some roach all in. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On February 03 2011 07:59 Jaeger wrote: Just a few notes if you're plan is 3gate sentry expand, Your core is ~5 seconds late. You usually build a 2nd gas before zealot with this build. Your sentry is ~13 seconds late because you don't have enough gas to start it on time. You have several bumps in probe production because you don't have the money to constantly produce them. 1 second after gateway 3 seconds after gas 3 seconds after second pylon 1 second after core 1 second after second gas 11 seconds after warpgate tech 5 seconds after 2nd/3rd gateway This might seem super nitpicky but as each chronoboost gives you an extra 10 seconds of production time thats over 2 chronoboosts of wasted production time. So basically if you: - place your core on time - only chrono boost your nexus once - constantly build probes from your nexus (this part requires pretty good worker micro actually) - build a 2nd gas before zealot - chrono boost out the zealot - chrono boost out the first sentry You end up with the exact same everything except you have an extra sentry and a second forcefield on your first sentry. To expand upon this: http://www.mikemarcin.com/media/starcraft2/jaeger(p)_brain(z)_3roachspeedling.SC2Replay A practice game played earlier, don't pay attention to the game so much as the timings of certain things. Despite several obvious bumps and horrible worker micro due to me being extremely tired you can see it is easily held using the OP's build with subtle chronoboost tweaks and has probe parity. I'm not exactly decided on if it's better to spend 3 chronos on warpgate tech and 2 on the gateway or vice versa but I'm leaning towards the former. Its the timings of the zerg in the op and the protoss in this that matter not the actual details of the game (i.e. obviously easier to hold in cross positions). At the critical moment where the OP's ramp is broken 5:41 he has had 2 available forcefields 2 sentries a zealot and 24 probes. At 5:41 in this replay which tries to closely mimic the OP's build you have 3 sentries a zealot with 3 forcefields and a 4th ready in plenty of time with 26 probes. No need for cannons, fast stalkers, giant deviations, and no need to throw away the 3gate sentry build if for instance your scouting probe gets killed by drones and you don't actually see this coming until there are roaches at your front. | ||
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:54 travis wrote: crib, everything i said there was EXACTLY RIGHT. lets look through the bolded words "I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse." are you arguing that that ISNT the case? I am SURE it's the case, it's simple statistics. How is that disrespectful at all???? Please explain "ur not very high rated are u? t.t" again, how is this disrespectful? if someone says "LOL is this a joke u have no clue what you are talking about" when in fact THEY have no clue what they are talking about, how is it disrespectful to call them out on it? "im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol" again, explain how this statement of the truth that doesn't even target any specific person is disrespectful? You're such a joke. Let's take your quotes one by one. 1. Regardless of whether or not this is statistically accurate (lol ladder ranking, can 4gate to masters), you're still completely arrogant for saying it and not thinking your tone is disrespectful. If a really smart person walks into the room and says "you're all dumber than me", that's still rude despite it being true. 2. Instead of commentating on why you think his advice doesn't make sense, you brush it off as if he was obviously low rated. It's not the comment that's disrespectful, it's the way you went about replying to him. 3. Just because you're not targeting specific people doesn't make you not disrespectful. "Most of you in this thread are retarded" is still a rude thing to say. Again, you're brushing everyone's advice off by saying that they would get "absolutely raped to pieces" despite you coming here for advice. Man, I wouldn't think someone with over 16 thousand posts in a rather well-mannered community would have to be taught proper etiquette. | ||
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns ALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote: YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD: I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns ALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. this is actually a very good idea and completely viable. because most of the time this build gets 2 zerglings right around the time the pool finishes, instead you can just get an extra drone early game to pay for the 75 mineral loss (skip those 2 lings) and you essentially make this build unscoutable at the cost of 2 lings | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
On February 03 2011 16:45 oOOoOphidian wrote: In response to people saying that proxying the roach warren is a smart way to hide this strategy, note that any player good enough to scout and understand your 1-base drone cutting play will not really be tricked by a missing roach warren when every other sign is there. Unless your opponent just assumes you are awful, it won't change anything. That's not true. My standard opening is 15 pool 14 gas into an immediate 4 lings. The econ here is pretty much the same as the roach rush. Are you saying they should just blindly invest in defending something they cant see or find? | ||
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Quengler
Germany7 Posts
I have been using this, and a variation of this (like 7 roach push + 4 lings) very successfully. Mainly you also can trick the protoss into you will be expanding. When you delay the roach warren just so your lings are out and kill the probe (or push it away, block your ramp with lings and queen once larvae vomited) you can have roach warren finished when larvae spawn. The rush distance is crucial imo, since it arrives at Ps base when 3 or 4 Gate just finished. The problem I see is that P is like 10 probes AHEAD when it comes. If P holds, Z is basically gg. IMO it's pretty similiar to the 4 gate protoss all in. Except they try to expand of course. This can easily be hold by a) scouting. b) Zealot, Sentry, Stalker + quick 2nd gate. BTW: What does Z do against 2 gate pressure? Zealots arrive before 6 lings are out (standard build). | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 03 2011 07:34 Jayrod wrote: Forcefields dont exclusively own roaches. Forcefields own everything that isnt flying, massive, or have movable burrow. You can go all roaches and overkill on corruptors and just overrun a collossus based army. Some zergs do this, some zergs dont.. .the good zergs do, the mediocre zergs dont. In fact roaches are so incredibly efficient they can actually ignore incoming damage at times and focus fire key targets, burrow and heal...A roach hydra corruptor build actually needs very few hydras to actually work. I cant tell you how many times ive seen both firsthand and watching top players just get overhwelmed because forcefields last 15 seconds and well... roaches have to die. People act like the reason zergs struggle is due to their weaker units... thats not it at all. The struggle specifically deals with how the zerg economy works and zerg struggles when their opponents are able to do actual damage (whether thats due to forcing them to make units or actually killing things). It doesn't have much to do with the units themselves. Maybe its not the cost, maybe they should have 5 or 10 less hp, but its just my personal opinion that they are over the top in terms of efficiency and my personal opinion probably wont affect patching in any way. People cling to this idra mentality that zerg is so weak but they are doing quite well in every league and tournaments when you factor in how many people actually play zerg. GSL qualifiers are just one other example. 13 zerg 13 terran 6 protoss. Zerg armies are very very efficient. Here's my compromise. Roaches either lose 10 hp or cost slightly more minerals and you increase hydra speed off creep a bit. I feel like hydras off creep could be slightly faster and it would promote more diversity as well as attack options for zerg midgame. You are so clueles about zerg. Roach is a damn good unit early game and mid game. But with less range than stalker, same foodcost, less dps overall, it is a unit that is not good in big mass. It's less efficient when you have a tons of roach (not to mention you can't micro them properly when there are too much). See Kiwikaki that goes for 100 stalker with mothership. That's good because stalker is good in mass, with nice range and blink for positionning. Roach cost wise are BETTER than stalker, but not in big army because they suck at positionning (burrow is too slow, cannot compare to blink) and with less range. I don't even wanna talk about zerg economy, but I think the biggest problem I have with zerg is not maccro, it's more that in many situation (early late game or late midgame), I'm stuck with hydra roach zergling corruptor muta bling when I should already have broodlord or ultra. T3 units are very expensive, very long to build (you just can't go for end tier tech with zerg on 1base, unlike protoss or terran who can tech very fast, you can actually have a Thor BEFORE the zerg get any mutas...). In some way, and I think it's the most for most zergs out there, i feel that I just can't go T3 without having at least 2-3 expand, and at this point the game is (most of the time) already decided. | ||
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oygp
United States40 Posts
The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler + On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote: if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler + On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote: YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD: I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns ALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote: Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler + On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote: if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler + On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote: YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD: I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns ALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude... If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be). I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread. edit: this replay posted just before I wrote this exemplifies what I said. The player uses his 3rd chrono on the wg research, and easily holds because his units warp in as this hits: On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons. And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several. This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy. He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is. | ||
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Xedat
Germany358 Posts
Which of the two buildorders would work better? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165468 | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On February 03 2011 16:12 Amirag wrote: Maybe this isn't the best way to counter it, but here's a replay of me playing against it and managing to survive (from same player): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125669-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns As soon as I scouted the roach den I threw the forge assuming he'd go for some roach all in. Thank you very much, I'll check it out when I get home from work! Also: people how about stop flaming around and pay attention to this guy and appreciate the effort that he only registered to post a game where he BEATS THE EXACT SAME PLAYER DOING THIS in order to help us all! | ||
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
The scout is easy all you have to do is wait because the warren goes down RIGHT after pool. he does not get lings out to chase probe away so there is nothing to stop you seeing it | ||
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
On February 03 2011 18:04 Deathmanbob wrote: I played vs a practice buddy on this build about 6 times on xel caverns ( the only place ive had it used vs me in ladder) and it was easy to hold, gate and core are normal, soon as you scout it you toss down a forge and then one cannon behind the core, or close to the wall, thats just where i keep my core. And then one cannon near the gate way so that he cant snipe from the low ground, and thats it. Seems to always work, we arnt great only 1500 diamond but it was a easy stop. The scout is easy all you have to do is wait because the warren goes down RIGHT after pool. he does not get lings out to chase probe away so there is nothing to stop you seeing it Did you even read my above post about proxy hiding the warren? He would never see it and it's the same build. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On February 03 2011 18:08 Encrypto wrote: Did you even read my above post about proxy hiding the warren? He would never see it and it's the same build. Maybe he missed it. Like you missed my post about proxy hiding the warren back on page 17  And the one a bit later after I'd gone and tested out the timing difference. It delays you by about 10 seconds, by the way. | ||
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