|
@michaelhasanalias...
+ Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 17:54 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote:Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude... If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be). I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread.In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons. And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several. This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy. He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is.
Well,I'm still going to disagree on the "disrespectful" part... as I've read about 20+ pages of this thread.. and most of the time, Travis is being completely reasonable..
I don't think Travis is refusing to alter his build upon scouting the roach warren, which he now knows to do... But a lot of noob posters (not including you) are saying crazy stupid stuff... where they're suggesting that Protoss blindly change their builds to simply counter this one rush... every. single. game. Seriously, saying something as innocuous as "10 gate builds counter this rush" are really NOT helpful at all, b/c it suggests that protoss should go 10 gate blindly every game against zerg.. or risk dying to this build by chance alone if zerg happens to decide to use it. That's the context in which people have been accusing Travis of "refusing" to change his opening build.
As for your "simple hard-counter," on page 10, that's actually not a viable counter at all... Simply using your 3rd chronoboost on your warpgate tech isn't going to help all that much against this 3 roach+speedling all-in. When 3 roaches come in, snipe ur blocking zealot, and allow 24 speedlings to run into your base, when you have 2 warpgates just finished, you're still gonna die. In fact, in order for warpgate tech to finish researching just as the 3 roaches arrive along with the speedlings right behind, i believe you need to continuously chronoboost the cyber core... (correct me if I'm wrong) not just once with your 3rd chrono... but 3-4 times continuously from that point on.. as if u were doing a fast 4 warpgate rush.
I'm saying this as a Masters protoss player who has personally experienced playing against this build for the first time yesterday... The fact you PM'ed Travis your "solution" and he said "Thanks"... only tells me that Travis was being polite to you. But sadly your solution actually doesn't counter the build. I hope you understand that.
|
Ive done this rush as a Z alot before, and it definately isn't unbeatable, and is not at all really OP, It isn't an insta win that is for sure
|
On February 03 2011 18:26 oygp wrote:@michaelhasanalias... + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 17:54 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote:Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude... If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be). I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread.In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons. And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several. This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy. He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is. Well,I'm still going to disagree on the "disrespectful" part... as I've read about 20+ pages of this thread.. and most of the time, Travis is being completely reasonable.. I don't think Travis is refusing to alter his build upon scouting the roach warren, which he now knows to do... But a lot of noob posters (not including you) are saying crazy stupid stuff... where they're suggesting that Protoss blindly change their builds to simply counter this one rush... every. single. game. Seriously, saying something as innocuous as "10 gate builds counter this rush" are really NOT helpful at all, b/c it suggests that protoss should go 10 gate blindly every game against zerg.. or risk dying to this build by chance alone if zerg happens to decide to use it. That's the context in which people have been accusing Travis of "refusing" to change his opening build. As for your "simple hard-counter," on page 10, that's actually not a viable counter at all... Simply using your 3rd chronoboost on your warpgate tech isn't going to help all that much against this 3 roach+speedling all-in. When 3 roaches come in, snipe ur blocking zealot, and allow 24 speedlings to run into your base, when you have 2 warpgates just finished, you're still gonna die. In fact, in order for warpgate tech to finish researching just as the 3 roaches arrive along with the speedlings right behind, i believe you need to continuously chronoboost the cyber core... (correct me if I'm wrong) not just once with your 3rd chrono... but 3-4 times continuously.. as if u were doing a fast 4 warpgate rush. I'm saying this as a Masters protoss player who has personally experienced playing against this build for the first time today... The fact you PM'ed Travis your "solution" and he said "Thanks"... only tells me that Travis was being polite to you. But sadly your solution actually doesn't counter the build. I hope you understand that.
You misunderstood my post. I mean, in addition to the other chronos, use the third on this build.
It's very easy to stop, and in fact someone was kind enough to post a replay of a pvz with timings almost exactly as in Travis's replay. The only difference is he also used his 3rd chrono on wg research instead of probes, and he was able to easily hold.
One chrono makes a huge difference when it's the difference between having 6-7 units and having 2-3. when this attack comes.
Using that 3rd chrono on WG research sacrifices minimal economy and absolutely crushes any 1-base all-in wall-busting shenanigans like this. It isn't gimmicky, and it's surely cheaper than spending 600 minerals on a forge and 3 cannons in the hope that your opponent is actually going to attack you (since he can always cancel the warren).
|
If the zerg player doesn't micro poorly, this build is strong. The forge response to a 1-base zerg is a hard counter. Still haven't seen a 3-chrono'd WG beat a properly executed 3 roach rush.
As for "blindly" responding to 1-base play with cannons, note that a zerg player who isn't building drones and has larvae saved up is going to be aggressive or just lose instantly. If you scout this exact scenario but don't see the roach warren, you can assume it's a proxy and maybe send your probe around to verify that there's a warren somewhere. Like I said, proxying it only will really help against opponents who don't know what they're looking for.
|
On February 03 2011 18:43 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 18:26 oygp wrote:@michaelhasanalias... + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 17:54 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote:Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude... If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be). I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread.In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons. And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several. This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy. He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is. Well,I'm still going to disagree on the "disrespectful" part... as I've read about 20+ pages of this thread.. and most of the time, Travis is being completely reasonable.. I don't think Travis is refusing to alter his build upon scouting the roach warren, which he now knows to do... But a lot of noob posters (not including you) are saying crazy stupid stuff... where they're suggesting that Protoss blindly change their builds to simply counter this one rush... every. single. game. Seriously, saying something as innocuous as "10 gate builds counter this rush" are really NOT helpful at all, b/c it suggests that protoss should go 10 gate blindly every game against zerg.. or risk dying to this build by chance alone if zerg happens to decide to use it. That's the context in which people have been accusing Travis of "refusing" to change his opening build. As for your "simple hard-counter," on page 10, that's actually not a viable counter at all... Simply using your 3rd chronoboost on your warpgate tech isn't going to help all that much against this 3 roach+speedling all-in. When 3 roaches come in, snipe ur blocking zealot, and allow 24 speedlings to run into your base, when you have 2 warpgates just finished, you're still gonna die. In fact, in order for warpgate tech to finish researching just as the 3 roaches arrive along with the speedlings right behind, i believe you need to continuously chronoboost the cyber core... (correct me if I'm wrong) not just once with your 3rd chrono... but 3-4 times continuously.. as if u were doing a fast 4 warpgate rush. I'm saying this as a Masters protoss player who has personally experienced playing against this build for the first time today... The fact you PM'ed Travis your "solution" and he said "Thanks"... only tells me that Travis was being polite to you. But sadly your solution actually doesn't counter the build. I hope you understand that. You misunderstood my post. I mean, in addition to the other chronos, use the third on this build. It's very easy to stop, and in fact someone was kind enough to post a replay of a pvz with timings almost exactly as in Travis's replay. The only difference is he also used his 3rd chrono on wg research instead of probes, and he was able to easily hold. One chrono makes a huge difference when it's the difference between having 6-7 units and having 2-3. when this attack comes. Using that 3rd chrono on WG research sacrifices minimal economy and absolutely crushes any 1-base all-in wall-busting shenanigans like this. It isn't gimmicky, and it's surely cheaper than spending 600 minerals on a forge and 3 cannons in the hope that your opponent is actually going to attack you (since he can always cancel the warren).
(I'm not sure which replay u are referring to, Encrypto's, right?) but the toss player in that replay also went for a fast 1 gas, 4 warpgate all-in build himself...
In contrast, Travis (in his replay in the OP) had 2 gas, and only 2 gates finished at the time the rush arrived, with a 3rd still in the process of warping in.. so even with the early 3rd chrono on the warpgate tech, he still would have been overrun with less than 4 gates...
In your solution, I think you need to specify building 4 warpgates quickly, and possibly taking workers off of the 2nd gas, upon scouting the fast roach warren. You totally don't mention getting 4 gates at all, which would allow you to have the "6-7 units" needed to hold off the rush...
even then... you still might need to do a complete wall-in of the ramp with a 2nd gateway (gate-core-gateway wall) to hold on until the ~5:40 mark which is the earliest possible moment that your warpgates can be ready. The roaches with lings following behind can arrive as early as 5:10 on maps/positions with short rush distances... so you're still in trouble for about 30 seconds until your warpgates kick in. One sentry with ff will give u 15 seconds, but a 2nd sentry might not be a good idea b/c those ffs will wear out, and then you'll be wishing you warped in an extra zealot or stalker instead.
|
On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if i forged it would have to be ahead of time it'd be a pretty blind forge and that's pretty ridiculous don't u think?
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
Now you know what it is like to be a zerg. Get used to it. We have to handle such situations almost every game.
|
Isn't the best solution the same thing as every game vs 1 base allin? Wall with cannons and go voidrays or dts?
It's not like they're going to have anything lair tech and multiple queens anytime soon. Hell, at least you can secure an expo with unkillable units.
Now of course, if the issue is scouting, such that you cannot see the roach warren in time and it looks like a speedling expand, then cannons aren't gonna work, but you're gonna have a damn hard time holding anything unscouted.
|
This is what I do:
I keep my scouting probe alive untill at least 4 mins. If he takes an really fast roach warren without taking his expo before 4 mins, I expect a roach all-in. If scouting in the main gets denied I keep looking at his natural. At this point I instantly make my forge and keep chronoboosting out sentries. I scout for hidden expo's, since that would suck if he had one. If I see him moving out, I make 2 cannons and survive on my FF and stalkers. If he does not move out, I get my +1 fast and still 3gate expo, while being a bit more agressive.
It's not the magic counter build, but it works on high diamond level. I tried it at mid master level too. It worked but he could get away with an expo. In the end I still won the game with a good protoss deathball ^^
Unfortunatly I am not at home so I cannot upload a replay =(
|
as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it? 
|
On February 03 2011 19:49 Humil wrote:
This is what I do:
I keep my scouting probe alive untill at least 4 mins. If he takes an really fast roach warren without taking his expo before 4 mins, I expect a roach all-in. If scouting in the main gets denied I keep looking at his natural. At this point I instantly make my forge and keep chronoboosting out sentries. I scout for hidden expo's, since that would suck if he had one. If I see him moving out, I make 2 cannons and survive on my FF and stalkers. If he does not move out, I get my +1 fast and still 3gate expo, while being a bit more agressive.
It's not the magic counter build, but it works on high diamond level. I tried it at mid master level too. It worked but he could get away with an expo. In the end I still won the game with a good protoss deathball ^^
Unfortunatly I am not at home so I cannot upload a replay =(
Yep, I agree with you, I think this is the proper response. I find it frustrating that so many p-players in this thread and the poll will not even concider the possibility of building a saftey-forge. They simply refuse to adapt.
Early roachwarren on 1 base = forge. But dont build canons until you know for certain the roach/ling will come before youve got units enough to handle them. Its a 150 mineral investment that will make you safe from this build; and only when you suspect it is coming. Its not a waste in any sense of the word. 150 mineral investment is not nearly as big a sacrifice as Z cutting drones; so if you end up not needing them you will still be ahead.
|
On February 03 2011 19:59 locohero wrote:as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it?
adel's one gas opening is a PvP opening that gets 2 gates first, then 1st gas at 20 supply, and then core at 24 supply.
Are you suggesting that protoss blindly go for a 2 gate, late first gas, and super late core opening every time against zerg? Tell me what happens if zerg doesn't do the 3 roach+speedling all-in? How's does adel's build fare then?
Your suggestion is basically the same as every other noob posting here that a quick forge would easily block this rush.. but does that mean toss in PvZ has to get an early forge every. single. game?
So with adel's PvP build, you're saying toss in PvZ should go 13 gate, 14 pylon, then 16 gate against zerg every single game? You'd have to do that blindly every. single. game?
|
On February 03 2011 20:17 oygp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 19:59 locohero wrote:as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it? adel's one gas opening is a PvP opening that gets 2 gates first, then 1st gas at 20 supply, and then core at 24 supply. Are you suggesting that protoss blindly go for a 2 gate, late first gas, and super late core opening every time against zerg? Tell me what happens if zerg doesn't do the 3 roach+speedling all-in? How's does adel's build fare then? Your suggestion is basically the same as every other noob posting here that a quick forge would easily block this rush.. but does that mean toss in PvZ has to get an early forge every. single. game? So with adel's PvP build, you're saying toss in PvZ should go 13 gate, 14 pylon, then 16 gate against zerg every single game? You'd have to do that blindly every. single. game?
Thanks for calling me a noob. Please just read. You might need a forge when you scout this. But, if you don't use a forge against an 1base all-in, then when do you get it? Only for the +1 upgrades?
Please, don't post like this. I'm just posting ideas and examples how I beat this. Don't put them all under 1 category, read it and post to that particular post. At least explain what's wrong about that forge idea.
It's logical that the PvP build does not work, though...
|
On February 03 2011 20:17 oygp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 19:59 locohero wrote:as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it? adel's one gas opening is a PvP opening that gets 2 gates first, then 1st gas at 20 supply, and then core at 24 supply. Are you suggesting that protoss blindly go for a 2 gate, late first gas, and super late core opening every time against zerg? Tell me what happens if zerg doesn't do the 3 roach+speedling all-in? How's does adel's build fare then? Your suggestion is basically the same as every other noob posting here that a quick forge would easily block this rush.. but does that mean toss in PvZ has to get an early forge every. single. game? So with adel's PvP build, you're saying toss in PvZ should go 13 gate, 14 pylon, then 16 gate against zerg every single game? You'd have to do that blindly every. single. game?
im not sayin im any good (2600 diamond for what its worth) but what i think is that the adel's opening also works vs zerg in alot of situations.
u can call me a noob but maybe u should try it out first, what u do is u rush to 4 zealots and 2 stalkers (btw its 12 gate, 14 pylon, 16 gate, 20 gas, 21 pylon, 24 core) and start harassing the zerg while u expand if possible or either do a delayed 4gate if u see something weird.
I like this opening more then 3gate sentry expand, because of the very early pressure which can do alot of damage.
|
this thread should just be closed. The solution is already provided tons of times and is painfully easy.
Just go 3 warpgate but make sure to use a chronoboost on the first sentry after your zealot. Having your first 2 sentries both out 10 secs earlier is very important to be able to ff 2 times, 2 with your first sentry, once with your 2nd. Get a stalker after the first 2 sentries to help poker at the roaches that are poking you.
Now if he does commit you simply wall yourself off (use a cybernetics core as that is the strongest building since it has most hp per buid time). and shoot at him from behind your walls while warpgate finishes. Warp in 1 more sentry and 2 stalkers and you should be fine. Just don't let his lings enter your base....
|
On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:
I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness.
Sorry, but your friend isn't even scouting, which of course give him additional Minerals.
A simple 6-Pool or other earlier timed aggresion would break this.
Especially both replays play on maps with long rush distances, where your RR hits later so he manages to get his 4 Gate ready.
Now Protoss has to go 4 Gate blind against zerg or what...?
|
On February 03 2011 21:18 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:
I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. Sorry, but your friend isn't even scouting, which of course give him additional Minerals. A simple 6-Pool or other earlier timed aggresion would break this. Especially both replays play on maps with long rush distances, where your RR hits later so he manages to get his 4 Gate ready. Now Protoss has to go 4 Gate blind against zerg or what...?
Now Protoss can't spend all his chrono boost on his nexus and defend any rush in the first 6 minutes with 1 zealot and possibly a sentry.....
|
On February 03 2011 23:18 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Now Protoss can't spend all his chrono boost on his nexus and defend any rush in the first 6 minutes with 1 zealot and possibly a sentry.....
Yea, I feel like this is the simple solution. I had this rush done to me, and it definitely caught me off guard. Upon watching the replay I feel like if I had pooled some Chronoboost and scouted the Roach Warren earlier I could have gotten Warp Gates up in time and delayed further with a pylon block.
If not, then in regards to your replay specifcally Travis, I feel like the instant you scout the Roach Warren that early, you can swap out your 3rd Gate for a Forge and get a Cannon in time? Too lazy to look at the timing right now, but I feel like it could work.
I open very similar to what its looks like you were going for (3 Gate Sentry heavy expo), so I'd love to figure out a way to adapt to this allin. It's just a flavor of the month build, and once the timings are figured out it'll go away.
|
This thread feels kinda ridiculous. Every time a Protoss does an early all-in and Zerg is 9 drones ahead, its a sure win for Protoss. And now you are calling this build imbalanced, because you need to scout it and leave your standard build route to survive?
Chronoboosting Nexus several time is actually very greedy, maybe you need to realize this.
Its like calling a hardcore Zealot rush imbalanced, because Zerg cannot take an expansion without teching to roach or baneling.
Some guy just figured out another all in timing the Protoss players need to know about. Sorry about that.
|
Oh you were all gonna 4gate anyway
|
2800 diamond here.
(no i didnt read all of the replies)
I watched the replay and i have to agree with most of the things being said, its very early (5min mark), and he hits with quite alot of force. That being said i feel
- You could have scouted better.
- Micro on the zealot was a bit off.
But the main problem ofcourse is the very very early attack. I havent stumbled up this kind of build, if anyone want to play around with this build/counter you can add me on bnet - BBC.807 (im protoss - seeking zerglings).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
