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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote:
i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
Still with the arrogance... You asked for help and you got literally 100's of response (some even by pro-gamers!!) and yet you still insist with this negative attitude. Learn to show some humility :S.
Someone needs to call the care-police because our beloved travis is leaving the strategy forum, tears in my eyes, dripping one drop at a time.
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Intresting build tried it as zerg its perrrtty good
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As 3k Diamond I got 100% win ratio so far. About 25 games. Closest so far was one guy who had 1 cannon ready and another one warping in, on Shakuras. He fend it off but lost all but 5 probes. Easy win 10 minutes later.
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On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote:
i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
You made a sensational O/P with an over-the-top title (until it was mod edited). Additionally some/most of your replies in the thread were inflammatory. I think alot of the responses you got were reflections of that.
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The problem is people are theorycrafting an explanation. The point is not to have a hypothetical discussion. It's to figure out an answer. It's hard to sift through a bunch of wrong suggestions to find the right solution. There is much to discuss in other threads, but threads like this are mainly to find a real reasonable answer.
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On February 04 2011 04:02 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:55 roymarthyup wrote:
i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well Saving up 300 minerals delays the warren pretty significantly... This build is a timing attack before WG finishes.. if you delay any part of it, its no longer a timing attack, its just bad.
The timing for this works out perfectly. I explained it on page 31. It IS a better build.
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On February 04 2011 05:26 Encrypto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 04:02 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 04 2011 03:55 roymarthyup wrote:
i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well Saving up 300 minerals delays the warren pretty significantly... This build is a timing attack before WG finishes.. if you delay any part of it, its no longer a timing attack, its just bad. The timing for this works out perfectly. I explained it on page 31. It IS a better build.
A probe should still be scouting around and should notice a drone leaving the base.
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On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote:
UPDATE:
someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice!
This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways.
How is this an adequate response?
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On February 04 2011 05:28 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 05:26 Encrypto wrote:On February 04 2011 04:02 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 04 2011 03:55 roymarthyup wrote:
i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well Saving up 300 minerals delays the warren pretty significantly... This build is a timing attack before WG finishes.. if you delay any part of it, its no longer a timing attack, its just bad. The timing for this works out perfectly. I explained it on page 31. It IS a better build. A probe should still be scouting around and should notice a drone leaving the base.
This a completely average scout timing. Your opponent will think nothing of it. If you are worried about this, just send an early scouting drone (around 9 ot 10), scout their base, and then leave and use that drone. I guarantee you they will never know about or find the warrren. Nobody can scout the whole map.
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Tried it and it worked brilliantly
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On February 04 2011 05:29 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote:
UPDATE:
someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice! This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways. How is this an adequate response?
You are incredibly ahead in econ, it isn't "brief". 150mins for busting a gateway is nothing to what the Zerg invested in the feint.
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On February 04 2011 05:29 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote:
UPDATE:
someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice! This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways. How is this an adequate response?
not like its the end all be all solution but i would keep that probe that build the 2nd gateway out of your base for proxy pylons. a 4gate might be able to even things up if you just warp to the outside of your wall. this thing does make an insane ammount of units tho. but they are sure to be droning only after that. so you might be able to pull it off. i would have to see it in real game tho.
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here is the complete breakdown of the build
without proxy warren it hits with 3roach+2ling at 5 minutes forcing you to use forcefields and it hits your door with 3roach+20 speedling at 5:30
with proxy warren it hits with 2roach+2ling at 5 minutes and 2roach+20speedling at 5:30.
with proxy warren the zerg can still get 2 lings right after the pool to deny your scouting
proxy warren costs 75 minerals (when you cancel the hatchery). when the pool finishes the zerg has 300 minerals to proxy a warren and make a queen so its possible to do it. In order to pay for the cost of proxy'ing the warren the zerg gets lingspeed 10 seconds slower (which has no effect on the rush) and 1 less roach (because the zerg has to pay for that 75 somehow)
with or without proxy warren, the zerg has 14 drones right when the warren finishes
a hatchery+queen produces 10 larva every 60 seconds (gameclock)
this means the zerg has 14 drones when when the warren finishes. if the zerg sees that you built a forge+cannons, he could opt to NOT BUILD THE ROACHES and put all his drones on minerals and build 10 drones a minute until he reaches 23 workers (full 1base saturation with 1gas) while expanding
because a hatch/queen produces 10 larva every 60 seconds, the zerg could theoretically get himself to full 1base saturation in less than a minute, and you already invested 450 minerals in full wall + 2 cannons and you have to kill the forge to break your wall
so is that viable? who knows
im thinking of the zerg scouts the forge then once his roach warren finishes he should NOT build roaches and instead put all drones on minerals and expand + build 10 drones a minute to drone up hard
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I think that this build is quite strong on the right maps. The best way to counter would just be a full walloff with an extra gate, while chronoboosting warpgate and units. But if they proxy it, then it can be quite hard to scout. If Z sees P with a forge, they can either just swarm and kill it if it's misplaced. Otherwise, they can catch up in workers in 60s, while dropping down their expo and getting a 2nd gas to tech up. The P will most likely have delayed tech from dropping down 3-4 cannons, so the Z has enough time to respond, as well as being able to prevent any expo for a decent amount of time.
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while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp.
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On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp.
if the protoss uses a forge to counter this he should use the forge to complete his wall with no entrance to his base
you are right. the protoss should keep a probe near the enemy ramp where nonspeed lings cannot kill the probe and if he sees roaches running out THEN he drops the cannons
and the protoss will only need to drop ONE CANNON because he completed his wall with the forge and the zerg wont be able to drop the wall before 1 cannon kills everything
and if no roaches come out the protoss can walk up the zergs ramp and if he sees plenty drones and no roaches, then the protoss kills the forge to open the wall and maybe attacks with 4gate
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I am diamond 2k Z on EU. I did try this and i can crush every single P i found on ladder and all my friends.
I think this build is way too strong at least at my level of play (and below) and is very easy to execute.
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On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp.
What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field)
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I just played someone who did this on the ladder, and then just opted to drone up when I put cannons. After playing the game, I am further convinced that if you just put cannons, you will be fine, no matter what they do. I wasn't really expecting this, and I was being sloppy with my scouting. Even so however, one tip is to not be too scared to lose a cannon. Put them right at the edge of the ramp. I put mine too far back and the roaches were able to snipe my buildings, making defendig harder than it had to be.
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EPT
