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On February 04 2011 06:50 icezar wrote:
I am diamond 2k Z on EU. I did try this and i can crush every single P i found on ladder and all my friends.
I think this build is way too strong at least at my level of play (and below) and is very easy to execute.
Are you sure you aren't crushing people because the have never seen it before? It can easily be countered with cannons, and various people have come up with ways to avoid cannons altogether and still stand a fighting chance. This is an all-in after all...
EDIT: This seems like a metagame counter build to the common 4/3gate opener, I don't really think it's overpowered...
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Though travis handle his responses extremely poorly and in a very snobbish and e-thug way, I can understand his frustration. I think limiting the discussion to protoss players may have alleviated that a bit because its really easy for a random guy to say "just add cannons" without understanding the effect or viability. Its like when Idra complains about not being able to open a certain way because of a certain threat and all the protoss on the forums are like "just do this, just do that". At a level when fewer mistakes are made, some of these inefficiencies can seal your fate even if that effect isnt felt for 10 minutes. The OP is frustrated at the oversimplification but IMO thats to be expected in every thread and its perfectly normal for a forum.
I think his biggest mistake was choosing to respond to literally every suggestion rather than sifting through the ones that warranted discussion. He sabotaged his own thread by responding to the "clueless" people and not focusing on the posts that make you think "okay okay now we're getting somewhere"
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On February 04 2011 06:55 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 06:50 icezar wrote:
I am diamond 2k Z on EU. I did try this and i can crush every single P i found on ladder and all my friends.
I think this build is way too strong at least at my level of play (and below) and is very easy to execute. Are you sure you aren't crushing people because the have never seen it before? It can easily be countered with cannons, and various people have come up with ways to avoid cannons altogether and still stand a fighting chance. This is an all-in after all... EDIT: This seems like a metagame counter build to the common 4/3gate opener, I don't really think it's overpowered...
I have to disagree with the metagame conclusion. The deviation to throw down that early roach warren comes at a time before you can ascertain what opener the protoss is going. You can make theoretical leaps, but I think the leaps are too large to really be accurate around the time you choose to do this build. Maybe you can get enough information before you make the extra lings to turn them into drones instead? I'm not sure yet.
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Jayrod, I'm apologize if I sound condescending, but I think you are interpreting the term "metagame" to mean "mid-game"
Meta-game means game within the game. Since almost almost all toss open 3gateExp/4gatePress, this build has been developed to combat that. On it's own, it's not that strong. If you open with this against a ForgeFE you will prob lose or some strange Indywall with cannons you would probably lose. It's meta because it only really hard counters this one MU. Now if this opening starts winning against all MUs >50% we may have a problem and I would start to consider the term "Imbalance"
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On February 04 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp. What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field)
the two lings chase the first probe and you run a second probe in at the time the roaches should pop. the queen wont kill the probe fast enough before it sees whether you built drones or roaches.
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On February 04 2011 07:10 bramapanzer wrote:
Jayrod, I'm apologize if I sound condescending, but I think you are interpreting the term "metagame" to mean "mid-game"
Meta-game means game within the game. Since almost almost all toss open 3gateExp/4gatePress, this build has been developed to combat that. On it's own, it's not that strong. If you open with this against a ForgeFE you will prob lose or some strange Indywall with cannons you would probably lose. It's meta because it only really hard counters this one MU. Now if this opening starts winning against all MUs >50% we may have a problem and I would start to consider the term "Imbalance"
I should have been more clear. What i meant was you conclusion that its a metagame counter. Its not a counter at all in any sense IMO. Its a powerful all-in that may blind counter openers that aren't adaptative. I don't think 4 gating defines the PvZ metagame. Sentry expand is the current flavor, but its adaptative and very basic up to the point where you can just do a different build in response to this rush. Thats why I dont think this is a metagame counter. I dont think any of the games discusssed in this thread even make it to mid-game
@darkforce. Ya, you can get lucky, but keep in mind that probe dies in seconds and if you arent at the exact right moment and their build isnt exactly perfect your probe wont reliably be around when those hatch. Possible? yes. worth a shot? yes. Reliable? no. I think wall off with stalkers is a better solution if you cant get that information but im going to keep testing it out. Ill try to nail the probe timing to see how reliable that method is, but if im zerg im hiding those roaches when i see his probe come towards my base past my OLs
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On February 04 2011 07:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp. What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field) the two lings chase the first probe and you run a second probe in at the time the roaches should pop. the queen wont kill the probe fast enough before it sees whether you built drones or roaches.
Seems excessive to send 2 probes just to scout for an uncommon roach all-in. You'd probably lose less econ by placing the 2nd+3rd gates before the 3rd pylon, and even if they bust up the ramp initially, you'll be able to reinforce more quickly and with more units than the zerg.
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On February 04 2011 06:13 Champ24 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 05:29 Jaeger wrote:On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote:
UPDATE:
someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice! This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways. How is this an adequate response? You are incredibly ahead in econ, it isn't "brief". 150mins for busting a gateway is nothing to what the Zerg invested in the feint.
Quantify their investment if they just make 2 zerglings scout your full wall and make drones + expand.
13pool 12gas, a fine aggressive opening, no huge economic hit here just a stylistic opening
Roach warren and queen and pair of lings before overlord, investment for sure but Overlord in position to see the full wall off with 2 gateways, zerglings out to chase away the scout your lings are out well before you hit 3 larva which means you don't have to waste any larva, your roach warren hasn't finished yet so you can cancel it even after your queen pops out.
So the cost over a normal 13pool 12gas speedling opening is is the mining time lost by the drone making the roach warren, the 40ish minerals you lose canceling the roach warren, the mining time lost by not building your drones on time because you delayed your overlord, the mining time lost by the drones mining gas not minerals after you start speed and before you pull them off.
I contend that it is quite brief as after the first inject you'll have made around 6 drones from the hatchery larva and 4 from the queen larva putting you at about 24 drones to 22 probes if you adjust from the replay in the OP and it only gets worse from there when an expansion and another queen come online.
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your replay on the first post is just fail. You posted the false replay
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On February 04 2011 07:00 Jayrod wrote:
Maybe you can get enough information before you make the extra lings to turn them into drones instead? I'm not sure yet.
There are a couple of things you could do.
1. If the Protoss player sees your roach warren then just chase of his probe and cancel the warren and start droning up again. Or If he scouts your roach warren don't cancel it but send a lord over to his base (there should be one there already) and see if he responds with a forge. He should but if he doesn't continue to rush. You can then use that overlord to creep block his natural or third in case things somehow go horribly wrong during the rush.
2. Keep the warren continue to rush even if he has a forge going but build 2 drones per inject so that you can expand to your natural. You probably won't win the fight but if you can at least get some lings into his mineral line its going to hurt him obviously and you will already be expanding while he is rebuilding.
Either way you are going to put pressure on early which most people aren't expecting from zerg and you are going to cause the Protoss player to use a lot of resources early defending.
If he walls off completely I would then just probably go straight to mutas and prevent him from expanding with lords dropping creep until I could muta harass.
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So, I finally watched the replay, havent read everything.
I think it's possible to defend this without changing anything in your build.
You should cancel the third sentry to morph in warp gate asap.
If you do this, when your last forcedfield ended, at the 5min41 mark, you would have 500 minerals and 300 gas in the bank.
From my opinion, with so much in the bank, you should not survive an attack without perfect micro.
At this point, you have 500 minerals and 300 gas, 2 warp gate, and a third warp gate morphing. Not enough energy for forcefield.
Warp in a freaking nexus to block the ramp. 3roache & 1 ling will need 15seconde to kill the warping nexus, cancel at the last moment. This gives you more than enough time to warp in 3 sentries and forcefield everything back.
At this point you have 5 sentries, 1 zealot, 3 warpgates.
You can save few more seconds by better use of your chronoboost on the warp gates. Your cyber core is chornoboosted 7s after the warp gate is finished.
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Yes my answer looks silly, and probably is. But it's probably the one that modifies your build the least, so if it can help even a little bit...
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why the mods don't close this thread? the OP said that he left the thread and the strategy forum for a while...
and the whole discussion its about HIS point of view and game experience its just a horrible thread for bump.
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On February 04 2011 08:42 Elean wrote:
So, I finally watched the replay, havent read everything.
I think it's possible to defend this without changing anything in your build.
You should cancel the third sentry to morph in warp gate asap.
If you do this, when your last forcedfield ended, at the 5min41 mark, you would have 500 minerals and 300 gas in the bank.
From my opinion, with so much in the bank, you should not survive an attack without perfect micro.
At this point, you have 500 minerals and 300 gas, 2 warp gate, and a third warp gate morphing. Not enough energy for forcefield.
Warp in a freaking nexus to block the ramp. 3roache & 1 ling will need 15seconde to kill the warping nexus, cancel at the last moment. This gives you more than enough time to warp in 3 sentries and forcefield everything back.
At this point you have 5 sentries, 1 zealot, 3 warpgates.
You can save few more seconds by better use of your chronoboost on the warp gates. Your cyber core is chornoboosted 7s after the warp gate is finished.
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Yes my answer looks silly, and probably is. But it's the probably the one that modify your build the least, so if it can help even a little bit...
Warping a nexus is a pretty great idea actually. Buys you invaluable time.
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Warping in a nexus reminds me of the HongUnPrime vs Fruitdealer game with tons of buildings being warped in and canceled XD
But thats a great idea imo. If you held that off and your opponent hasnt started an expansion when the attack commences, then he is royally screwed. But I tried this and I still had enough resources to make a hatch and continue making roach/ling at 5:20 with the same unit count.
But this one other game my opponent scouted and went into cannon expansion mode, and since my version has the roach warren made 1 supply later I was able to cancel the roach warren just in time and immediately threw down a hatch at my natural. This just forces the game to go into a Protoss FE vs Julyzerg opener.
I for one am glad I longer have to deal with 4gates on Blistering sands.
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Here is the thing though, any variant that relies on WG, either 3 WG expand, 4 WG all-in or even 2 gate aggression falls to this hard. It's basically punishment for the time when you have basically 2 units out, either a zealot/sentry or zealot/stalker because the Toss is thinking the zerg is droning/expanding rather than rushing. Even if the Toss sees the roach warren and is familiar with this build, it's possible to chase the scouting probe with the 2 lings, cancel the warren then go for a more economical build.
This rush fits in to any type of build really, because it opens speedling and offers a roach all-in on the side, if you don't like your chances, whether it be long positions or if your opponent is ready for it, you can change into a more economical game. The great thing about only getting 3 roaches, is that you committing to lings and either building an expansion with the 300 minerals you pile up or using it on lings to finish your opponent. I always open speedling in all my matchups lately and this is a great option for ZvP or ZvZ, been having crazy success using it when my opponent just masses roaches or if they open banelings, I just use the 3 roaches as a wall and mass speedlings in my base waiting for the bust to move out.
This build may be abusive, but it's just as fair as any 4WG rush I've been running into since day 1 of this game. If a Toss can hold it off they can win because there is a timing where after the roaches are gone where you can just wall off completely and 4 WG rush them back and win. Against Zerg, I don't know, I'm thinking more and more that this is probably the best 1 base build you can do. I've had opponents hold it off by getting a FE and basically out produce my rush but it was very close and was a micro war. But most of the time I've been beating zergs with this build, because you actually only need 3 roaches to do significant damage, keep them alive and let your lings tank all the damage.
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On February 04 2011 08:46 No_eL wrote:
why the mods don't close this thread? the OP said that he left the thread and the strategy forum for a while...
If you read the replies, this all-in is now very used in the ladder.
If the thread is closed, someone will make another one on the same topic in no time. Until the best response is known, it's normal to have a thread to discuss the build.
Although, it wouldn't hurt to have a new and clean thread.
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seems walling is the best counter
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I am a zerg player and so far only 1 person has managed to counter this but he had to really micro his units like crazy, and on top of that my 2nd wave came in right after he killed my last unit so i still won after that.
Another person managed to stop me a bit while using this which forced him into immortals, so i made mutas after my second wave which ended on a GG again.
All i got to say is that this is the only way a zerg can prevent a colossus/stalker ball that is completly over powered for zerg, even with good micro and macro skills and 200/200 army zerg units get obliderated unless we pump out 5+ ultras which are very expensive.
Its nice to know that zerg gots something vs protoss on early game that finally works, was getting irritating trying to win a game with 3+ bases vs 1 toss base and still lose to that colossus/stalker or colossus/void ray combo.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if i forged it would have to be ahead of time it'd be a pretty blind forge and that's pretty ridiculous don't u think?
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
this is a bit of a riddiculous statement this is an all in rush.
when protoss 2 gate zealot rushes, or proxy 2 gates, zerg has to get spine crawlers to defend, same if terran is doing a 2 rax rush spines are almost a necessity.
saying "i shouldn't have to" is a bit of a sad mentality to have no offense. zergs have for a long time relied on static defense for a lot of t/p's rushes.
hell even against some zergling speed ins, or baneling attacks from zerg we need multiple spines to defend.
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Done this build about 10 times now on my Zerg account and I´m 9-1. Only time I lost was when he cannonrushed me on delta quadrant and I didn't see him starting to build close to my base. I'm 2150 master zerg with 450 bonuspool if it matters.
One game on shakuras my opponent started cannoning his front on shakuras but I was able to get through his backdoor. He couldnt get the cannons up in time there even though he started right when his rocks got attacked.
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EPT
