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On February 13 2011 03:38 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Any sightings of htis in TLOpen?
Not the TLOpen, but in the the Thunderzark Invitational last night, + Show Spoiler + Pokebunny and Yen took turns using it against each other in 2 games in a Bo5. Not exactly the best example of this build's strengths, but game 2 was a good example of how much this build is like mutaling. Specifically the part where you rape T's economy, let your pressure units die, and he just a-moves into you and wins.
EDIT: added spoilers
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After losing quite a few TvZ games in a row, I decided to try this build out to see what would happen against Zerg. Although I'm fairly sure that this style would get beaten quite badly by Hydralisks or Infestors, the constant harassment from Hellion drops, Banshees, and Vikings picking off Overlords probably confused and enraged my opponent to the point where he couldn't think straight. I thought I would share his reaction with you.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rGauh.png)
I have to say, it was nice being the one containing my opponent in this matchup for once, and it was especially nice not to have to worry about Mutalisks once my Viking count got high. I do think there are several timing windows where Zerg can just destroy you, but there may be some potential if you change some things around. If anything, it's fun to play around with haha.
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Has anyone tried a marauder heavy MM with fast concussive? I don't play T but that seems like it would be able to pressure and really damage the build before banshees come out in any significant numbers.
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United States700 Posts
I think Pokebunny tried that against iEchoic in the first game on Lost Temple on the day9 episode. iEchoic counter dropped after Pokebunny moved out and roasted most of the workers. When the attack came iEchoic looked screwed but the hellions killed all the marines before dying and a couple banshees cleaned up the marauders. iEchoic did lose quite a few harvesters, but came out way ahead. It's delicate and you have to have good control, but iEchoic can do it quite well with just 80 apm.
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I saw this on Day9tv, and I really made this account just to make this post to tell you how awesome you are. I hate TvT, it's just so-- Lame. I got dropped by this guy, I knew it was coming, but hellions are so fast and beefy and the very least you lose 3-6 SCV's. It's frusterating, tried this build though, it's amazingly sexy. Way to fricken go!
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On February 13 2011 07:20 Senorcuidado wrote:
I think Pokebunny tried that against iEchoic in the first game on Lost Temple on the day9 episode. iEchoic counter dropped after Pokebunny moved out and roasted most of the workers. When the attack came iEchoic looked screwed but the hellions killed all the marines before dying and a couple banshees cleaned up the marauders. iEchoic did lose quite a few harvesters, but came out way ahead. It's delicate and you have to have good control, but iEchoic can do it quite well with just 80 apm.
The first game his opponent used a marine/tank combo early game, 2nd game the initial push was very marine heavy (only 1 marauder), 3rd was a 1 rax Reaper expand. If someone has a replay of it holding off an early MM w/ concussive I'd like to see it. It seems possible, but difficult.
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I am sorry if this question already occured but I was a bit too lazy to read all 26 pages.
I tried this build once and my opponent went for helions too, he repeatedly managed to kill a lot of scvs at my 3rd, 4th and 5th, one time it was sloppy scouting and once he dropped them. Should I build a PF instead of an OC at the 3rd, 4th, ...?
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On February 13 2011 05:09 Pooka wrote:After losing quite a few TvZ games in a row, I decided to try this build out to see what would happen against Zerg. Although I'm fairly sure that this style would get beaten quite badly by Hydralisks or Infestors, the constant harassment from Hellion drops, Banshees, and Vikings picking off Overlords probably confused and enraged my opponent to the point where he couldn't think straight. I thought I would share his reaction with you. I have to say, it was nice being the one containing my opponent in this matchup for once, and it was especially nice not to have to worry about Mutalisks once my Viking count got high. I do think there are several timing windows where Zerg can just destroy you, but there may be some potential if you change some things around. If anything, it's fun to play around with haha.
hydralisks are light so helions should do pretty well against them!
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I want to try a Marine Thor Hellion builds against this. In idea it works perfectly.
Hellion beats Hellion.
Marine beats Viking.
Thor beats Banshee.
It's slightly slower, can deal with Battlecruisers and Banshees while not having too hard a time against Vikings, and wont lose all or any Marines because of my Hellions. It's also easier to fund off 1-2 base.
I could probably beat this build doing my normal Marine/Siege/Banshee build, but that's only because I feel comfortable with this build.
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United States7483 Posts
KoKoRo, you'll have a hell of a lot less hellions than your foe will if you're getting marines, and his hellions will demolish yours just as easily. 2 Banshees with upgrades beat an a thor without upgrades too, so thors aren't THAT great vs. banshees (2 banshees have the same cost as one Thor as well.)
There is no magic 'mix' that just makes this easy for you, you've really just got to outplay it.
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Just wanted to say thank you to Echoic!!! What a fun build 
Are you sponsored by the Hellion Council? "Hellions: The other splash damage"
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i tried this build in my 15 minute break at work.
went great... i asked for a pause and he says ok so i pause an go to the bathroom
i come back and he unpaused it >_< massive 4 medivac drop killing off my production lines
yay
ill retry this tomorrow hopefully, it looks nice though
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I've been trying this out in nearly all of my TvT games (except on short rush distances), and I've been having more success as I learn how to use it more effectively. As iEchoic says, it really does feel like a ZvT. Unfortunately, that also means that one wrong engagement leads to the massacre of your entire army and a subsequent loss. I feel like this will become a normal style for TvT in the future, and this discovery really shows how young the game is and how much room there is for innovation yet.
For anyone saying it has trouble with Marine/Tank/Medivac play, here's a replay of a game I just played on the ladder. I'm about 2700 Masters and still learning how to use the style correctly, so take it for what it's worth. In fact, I almost die at one point because I thought I had built a Fusion Core already (so instead of making Battlecruisers, I was making... nothing). Oh well, the game turned out to be more exciting because of it. (Warning: 45 minute game  )
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188750.jpg)
Thank you to iEchoic for thinking outside the box and making this matchup more interesting!
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On February 11 2011 21:57 veljanov wrote:
was wondering if someone have done this strat and there opponent also did this?, couse it sounds like it whould be a strange match. and what should you focus on then?
might not be very good examples as this is low level.. sorry then
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188762.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-188764.jpg)
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On February 13 2011 09:06 KoKoRo wrote:
I want to try a Marine Thor Hellion builds against this. In idea it works perfectly.
Hellion beats Hellion.
Marine beats Viking.
Thor beats Banshee.
It's slightly slower, can deal with Battlecruisers and Banshees while not having too hard a time against Vikings, and wont lose all or any Marines because of my Hellions. It's also easier to fund off 1-2 base.
I could probably beat this build doing my normal Marine/Siege/Banshee build, but that's only because I feel comfortable with this build.
I do not think this will work. With 2 factories all game pumping hellions, there's no way your opponent will have more hellions as well as marines, and then the Echoic build player will roast your hellions and marines. Naked thors will then get taken down and you lose. It's also a weird composition because hellions and marines are mobile and thors really aren't so it's tough to engage a super mobile composition with thors.
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you changed the TvT word, i srsly love you. no more tankmarine 40+ min games
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What happens when you encounter a player who does a hellion opening into a marine/tank transition?
Jinro vs Ensnare, for example: Jinro went for a blue flame hellion drop, and then switched into marine/tank.
IMO at this point the marine/tank player has the advantage because both players have equal opportunities to do economic damage, but the marine/tank player clearly has the better ground force. Banshees aren't nearly as effective in killing tanks as marines are in killing banshees, so I would imagine the situation would be rather difficult to deal with if the "standard" player decides to do an aggressive contain.
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On February 14 2011 01:26 wherebugsgo wrote:
What happens when you encounter a player who does a hellion opening into a marine/tank transition?
Jinro vs Ensnare, for example: Jinro went for a blue flame hellion drop, and then switched into marine/tank.
IMO at this point the marine/tank player has the advantage because both players have equal opportunities to do economic damage, but the marine/tank player clearly has the better ground force. Banshees aren't nearly as effective in killing tanks as marines are in killing banshees, so I would imagine the situation would be rather difficult to deal with if the "standard" player decides to do an aggressive contain.
Seems to me that the marine-tanking transitioning player will fall behind from having switched back to bio, requiring extra barracks/reactors/upgrades (stim/shield/siege). Not to mention the inefficiency from now having a loose starport and abandonning blue-flame tech.
It might be viable as a "kill move" if you come out far ahead in the harassment war. Otherwise your marines will get roasted by hellions and tanks will be cleaned up by banshees because the other player kept to his plan and got more stuff while you were switching tech.
EDIT: My own inclination when getting ahead from harassment isn't to spend my advantage with a tech switch, but to expand and get farther ahead while keeping to the same plan. I'd rather "add tanks" after expanding and claiming more gas, than "switch to" tanks on the same economy. If doing it from the 2fact2port build, it should be thought of as an alternative to going BCs because you're upgrading vehicles instead of upgrading air.
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iEchoic, this is really great.
I'm a highish-level Protoss player but I am a big fan of the TvT matchup from a spectator point of view. I found the formulation, analysis, and execution of this strategy very solid.
This thread and analysis like this is exactly what makes Teamliquid great. Next time we pair up in a random ladder match, I'm going to tell you how awesome you are.
-Slurgi
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On February 14 2011 01:24 xciLe wrote:
you changed the TvT word, i srsly love you. no more tankmarine 40+ min games
Indeed, finally we can enjoy what PvP has enjoyed for so long, less focus on skill, macro and mechanics and more focus on the coinflip over whether or not the worse player will win against a better macro player because he knows how to build air units.
Not saying that the build itself is bad, nor even non solid but whether people like to acknowledge it or not, this is the build for all of those who were not skilled enough to win standard tvt's because the mechanics were too demanding.
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On February 14 2011 05:15 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2011 01:24 xciLe wrote:
you changed the TvT word, i srsly love you. no more tankmarine 40+ min games Indeed, finally we can enjoy what PvP has enjoyed for so long, less focus on skill, macro and mechanics and more focus on the coinflip over whether or not the worse player will win against a better macro player because he knows how to build air units. Not saying that the build itself is bad, nor even non solid but whether people like to acknowledge it or not, this is the build for all of those who were not skilled enough to win standard tvt's because the mechanics were too demanding.
BAWWWWW
I find this has "harder" mechanics than regular TvTs... there's way more to manage than positioning your tanks in a line and dancing back and forth with vikings.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img511.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2011021316524.jpg/)
