• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:05
CEST 17:05
KST 00:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week2[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation14$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL68
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 1 - Final Week Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL BW General Discussion Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [G] Progamer Settings
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 666 users

[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 28

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 26 27 28 29 30 56 Next
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 18:15:19
February 15 2011 18:06 GMT
#541
People approach the 'make mass viking' thing the wrong way. Some people assume that if you were to open two-port viking against this build on one-base, you'd just win. Here's the problems:

1) That build sucks, bad. That loses to literally every other build in the game, and nobody does it for that reason. It has to be a blind counter, because scouting info comes late and your 2nd port would come up late if you actually scouted the build and tried to react. Remember that the marine forces out your SCV before the second refinery goes up and the only subsequent thing you'll see is one poking hellion, which can mean anything.

2) You're creating a hypothetical situation where one player scouts and one doesn't. The ideal scenario is "2fact2port player doesn't scout and makes 1x vikings and I make 3x vikings then olloollololo win". Well, that can go just as easily the other way. What about "2fact2port player sees 3x vikings, makes 2x tanks and lands his vikings, and 1as and wins"? Obviously whatever player doesn't scout is going to lose.

3) Pure 3x viking has zero harassment options. Also, building any non marine or hellion units will cut into your viking gas, so you have to decide between marines, hellions, and losing air control. Those units die to blue-flame quickly. Blue-flame hellions are the perfect unit to complement mass viking, because every non-gas unit you build dies to them, and every gas unit reduces your viking count. In a real-game scenario, flying around with a bunch of vikings doesn't give you much room to get a leg up on your opponent.

4) I still maintain that you will not ever be able to attack with your vikings even if you do that. Even if the 2fact2port player's 2nd starport is a bit delayed, it is already made up for by time you move across the map to attack. This is defender's advantage - it's the reason that even if you 6pool and you get zerglings faster, an 8pool beats it, a 10pool beats that, a 12-pool beats that. The 2port viking opening only works if your opponent doesn't respond correctly (which admittedly will probably be pretty common on ladder).

I am definitely not saying that the build is unbeatable, I think it can be beaten by outplaying your opponent with a standard-esque build and solid defense and positioning, but I think people are desiring a 'hard counter' too much, and going into unrealistic builds to do so.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
February 15 2011 18:48 GMT
#542
I feel like a lot of misunderstanding has been coming from when exactly you can expect to do damage with your hellions and when exactly you cannot expect to do damage with your hellions. I've created a new section in the OP, called Guaranteed vs Gambled Hellion Drops, so check it out!
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
blackbrrd
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway477 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 19:28:09
February 15 2011 19:27 GMT
#543
Theorycrafting post ftw:

I was wondering if there was any micro that could allow the Marines to kill Hellions cost-effectively, like can be done with banelings.

Hellion w/pre-igniter
DPS 9.6, pr attack: 24
HP 90

Marine w/Combat shield
DPS 7, pr attack: 6
HP 55

Hellion needs 3 shots to kill a Marine
Marine needs 15 shots to kill a Hellion

This information is actually a bit misleading, since both the Hellion and the Marine attack at the same time the first time they attack. In other words, at time 0 both Hellion and Marine attack, then at time 0.8608 and 1.7216 the Marine attacks again, then the helion attacks at time 2.5. This ends up at time 5 seconds when the Hellion (over)kills the Marine and is left with 60hp.

The conclusion is that without Micro the Hellions, without splash kills Marines cost-effectivly. (Stimming the marine allows him to attack more, but he gets killed at time 2.5 and the Hellion is left at 65hp, so that's even worse)

This leaves the Marine/Marauder - composition. This is also quite effective at handling banelings and I do wonder if it might no be the solution for this problem as well.

Hellion w/pre-igniter
DPS 3.2, per attack 8
HP 90

Marauder
DPS 6.7, per attack 10
HP 125

Hellion needs 16 shots to kill a Marauder
Marauder needs 9 shots to kill a Hellion

Going with the same method as above (ignoring the Marauders superior range), the Marauder kills the hellion in 12 seconds with 85hp left. Stimming would allow the Marauder to kill in 8 seconds with 69 hp left.

A Marauder can nearly take on two hellions alone, leaving the reminding Hellion at 40 health.

The whole point of moving out with a Marine/Marauder army would be to keep the marines alive after the Hellions go in for the attack, splitting them, much in the same way as is done vs banelings. This would require the player with the Hellions to micro them so they fire against the marines instead of the Marauders. The Marine/Marauder player would also have to try to get his marines to attack the banshee.

This is assuming the MM player isn't going factory/starport. If he can get a single Viking out he should be able to position it back/around his marines to keep it out of enemy return viking fire.

tl;dr
Kite and split marines and let Marauders take/give damage long enough for the hellions to die so the marines can take care of the air units.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 19:55:49
February 15 2011 19:52 GMT
#544
On February 16 2011 04:27 blackbrrd wrote:
Theorycrafting post ftw:

I was wondering if there was any micro that could allow the Marines to kill Hellions cost-effectively, like can be done with banelings.

Hellion w/pre-igniter
DPS 9.6, pr attack: 24
HP 90

Marine w/Combat shield
DPS 7, pr attack: 6
HP 55

Hellion needs 3 shots to kill a Marine
Marine needs 15 shots to kill a Hellion

This information is actually a bit misleading, since both the Hellion and the Marine attack at the same time the first time they attack. In other words, at time 0 both Hellion and Marine attack, then at time 0.8608 and 1.7216 the Marine attacks again, then the helion attacks at time 2.5. This ends up at time 5 seconds when the Hellion (over)kills the Marine and is left with 60hp.

The conclusion is that without Micro the Hellions, without splash kills Marines cost-effectivly. (Stimming the marine allows him to attack more, but he gets killed at time 2.5 and the Hellion is left at 65hp, so that's even worse)

This leaves the Marine/Marauder - composition. This is also quite effective at handling banelings and I do wonder if it might no be the solution for this problem as well.

Hellion w/pre-igniter
DPS 3.2, per attack 8
HP 90

Marauder
DPS 6.7, per attack 10
HP 125

Hellion needs 16 shots to kill a Marauder
Marauder needs 9 shots to kill a Hellion

Going with the same method as above (ignoring the Marauders superior range), the Marauder kills the hellion in 12 seconds with 85hp left. Stimming would allow the Marauder to kill in 8 seconds with 69 hp left.

A Marauder can nearly take on two hellions alone, leaving the reminding Hellion at 40 health.

The whole point of moving out with a Marine/Marauder army would be to keep the marines alive after the Hellions go in for the attack, splitting them, much in the same way as is done vs banelings. This would require the player with the Hellions to micro them so they fire against the marines instead of the Marauders. The Marine/Marauder player would also have to try to get his marines to attack the banshee.

This is assuming the MM player isn't going factory/starport. If he can get a single Viking out he should be able to position it back/around his marines to keep it out of enemy return viking fire.

tl;dr
Kite and split marines and let Marauders take/give damage long enough for the hellions to die so the marines can take care of the air units.


You completely ignored AoE. The hellions will be hitting more than one unit per attack, making this kind of theorycrafting pretty useless, unfortunately. You can attack marauders and roast marines behind them, unless the marines are so far back as to be out of range, in which case you're just going with all your marauders vs. all his hellions, hoping your marauders win with your marines not participating. Marines have the same range as the hellions do, and less than the banshees do, so if your hellions can attack the marauders, and the marines need to be in range of the air above the hellions, the hellions can hit the marines. You can't leave your marines back or the air takes out the marauders.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 20:06:02
February 15 2011 20:01 GMT
#545
@ blackbrrd:

There's a huge problem with splitting vs hellions:

- Splitting vs banelings works because the banelings have to move into your units to attack. This means that even the marines further from the front line will get to attack
- Splitting vs hellions does not work because the ones beyond the front line will just stand there and do nothing while 100% of my hellions attack, given that marines do not out-range hellions.

I've had people try to split and it actually hurts them. Splitting is not very effective against ranged units.

Quick paint illustration:
[image loading]


vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
flopflop
Profile Joined October 2010
45 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 20:17:08
February 15 2011 20:16 GMT
#546
i think small groups of marines split are good (not completely clumped in one big ball), but spreading them out in small groups is not so good
blackbrrd
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway477 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 20:46:43
February 15 2011 20:34 GMT
#547
I were thinking about the problem with slash damage and totally forgot to mention it in my post. Mostly because any type of marine-splitting where you are trying to kill the hellions will probably fail miserably, since the hellions have higher dps/hp and the same range as the marines. It's what the top part of my post is trying to say, but failing.

I assumed you would have a ball of marine/marauder, see the hellions move inn and just move the marines out. This would leave the Marauders with range 6 spread, enabling most of them to shoot, while all of the marines are moving away.

Blue is Marauder, red is Marine:
[image loading]
The top part of the picture you are a-moving your marine/marauder ball
At the bottom part of the picture you have used the move command on your marines.

If the hellion-player is moving after your marines to kill them the marines will need to be split up manually and moved around your marauders. The point is to have enough marines left over to kill banshee/vikings, the Marauder isn't important.

One thing to note is that splash damage increases exponentially so exchanging units vs the hellion-player is a must. When the hellion attacks hits about three marauders even Hellions become cost-effective vs marauders. (Hitting two marauders at a time isn't actually enough...)
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
February 15 2011 20:36 GMT
#548
Additionally, assuming that the marine player micros and the hellion player doesn't micro is silly. Say you split your marines into a line formation that is perpendicular to your hellion splash. What is to stop the hellion player from pulling a few hellions to the sides to take advantage?
Yargh
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 20:42:39
February 15 2011 20:39 GMT
#549
I think at that point you'd essentially have a bunch of hellions and banshees attacking some marauders. I could also micro my hellions back and let my banshees kill the marauders, and only bring in the hellions whenever marines threaten the banshees.

If you check out the game vs Maker in the day9 game, my hellions initially attack a marauder, but the splash runs through and melts all the marines behind it, forming a cup of dead marines behind the marauder. The marines would have to be well-away and then my banshees would have free reign on the marauders.

Given the banshee's range, your marines have to be past the marauders to fire at the banshees.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
RoyalFlush1994
Profile Joined February 2011
Singapore30 Posts
February 15 2011 20:44 GMT
#550
holy shit dude this build broke tvt... GJ!!
top the flop on the mississippi
blackbrrd
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway477 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 21:03:45
February 15 2011 20:58 GMT
#551
iEchoic I do kinda agree with you there, but if this is early in the game, wouldn't the Banshee count be quite small at this point, with a lot of Marauders? In other words you just allow the marauders to take a beating until you can get the rid of most of the hellions?

I was thinking about the game on Metaopolis on the last Friendday Wednesday where he pushes in with Marine/Marauders and all his marines. You only had one banshee and he was in your base...
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4745995/, around 47 minutes into the replay. (Checked the replay and it skims over the that is interesting - when he moves his MM into your base. Would it be possible to post that replay here?)
drcatellino
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada346 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 23:05:58
February 15 2011 22:50 GMT
#552
2500 diamond player here, I just played a game against someone using that build. I decided to open with a Thor-Drop (with dual medivac: one filled with scvs and marines and the other with the Thor). Since he controlled the watchtowers, I had to go all around the map. I managed to drop in his main and delay his mining for a long time. But I knew he would probably be dropping my main with hellions at the same time: when he did, I just lifted my command center and runned my scvs to the natural. I also used bunkers and supply depot to block his hellions, stucking them in my main (they don't do much to buildings).

[image loading]

These poor hellions were faced with a lifted supply depot and a bunker when they tried to pursue the scvs.

After this drop / counter-drop happened, I decided to keep up with the thors/vikings and used marines in bunker to protect my base. I had enough vikings to crush his own vikings/banshee and the thor just detroyed the hellions. Then he left.

[image loading]

Do you guys think this Thordrop early agression + vikings/ bunkered marines can be a counter that could be used every game or you think that with proper control he should have crushed me ?
quote unquote
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 15 2011 23:58 GMT
#553
Thor drop is very risky because your opponent has air control, a little bad luck and you lose the drop ship, a lot of bad luck and you lose the thor too.

Also, a thor rush with a medivac that quickly means you don't have much of anything left to defend, and to be honest, you got pretty lucky that he didn't kill more scvs when they tried to run.

With proper control (look, those hellions in the pick are shooting a supply depot instead of the scv's right next to them -_-) he probably should have crushed you in this game.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Tomtaietot
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania57 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-16 00:15:49
February 16 2011 00:12 GMT
#554
LOL - 2 times i encountered this tactic today ... 1 win / 1 loss

Getting back to beta wall tvt :D - bunker + tank at my mineral line (vs hellion drop,) then taking expo , expo again - and play 3 base vs 2 = win !

------------------------------------------------------------------

This game is reduced to - how the initial hellion drop works. If u can do damage - there are 400 minerals well spent ... if u can t he uses those 400 minerals to expo and out-macro u.

Maybe I m wrong but ... i donno ... it feels so easy to out-macro this tactic and always make more vikings than him after u have the first base.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/323212/1/Tom/
BananaSlap
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11 Posts
February 16 2011 00:40 GMT
#555
@iEchoic

Thanks for that update on the early drop. That makes a lot of sense. Is the early drop the first time that you attack his mineral line? going up the ramp seems like a dumb gamble.
SirDawid
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden83 Posts
February 16 2011 15:03 GMT
#556
I'm just curious, if one thor is like mega hard to defend.. what do I do to fend off the second thor, already running towards my base? i'm pretty much out of scv's and offensive units. I do drop and take out his eco during the first thor, but I can't do it fast enough to prevent a second thor coming to my base just right after the first...
"This player is so bad I can't assume anything"
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
February 16 2011 23:07 GMT
#557
This build has effectively caused me to stop laddering and take a break from sc2. I'd say that is a testament to its success.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Hawkke
Profile Joined January 2011
United States41 Posts
February 17 2011 00:53 GMT
#558
Ghost Marauder > Hellion Banshee.

entropius
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1046 Posts
February 17 2011 01:50 GMT
#559
On February 17 2011 09:53 Hawkke wrote:
Ghost Marauder > Hellion Banshee.



Ghosts cost more, are less mobile, have less health, and do less damage than banshees. If you're spending your gas on ghosts and I'm spending my gas on banshees I win, because -- as day9 says -- I just fucking kill your ghosts, while your marauders watch.

If you're suggesting ghosts as a way to kill hellions, then, sure -- ghosts don't take extra damage from them. But this is only relevant if you have a pile of marines to kill the banshees with, and I don't think the ghosts will kill the hellions before the hellions kill most of your marines and then the banshees eat everything else.

Ghosts don't seem all that useful unless you're planning on using their spells, neither of which is relevant here. (Remember the banshees in this strategy do not rely on cloak.)

If you want ghost/marine/marauder, where the marauders and ghosts try to keep the marines safe, then it comes down to micro, where you have a disadvantage. If the marines are in the ball or in front of it the hellions kill them; if the marines are behind then the banshees start blowing up marauders/ghosts.

Plus, the banshee/hellion player is more mobile than you; that marine force that you're trying to keep safe from the hellions is the only thing you have that can shoot up well enough to kill banshees, and they have to cover anywhere in your base that's not covered by turrets while simultaneously not getting killed by hellions.
rfoster
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1005 Posts
February 17 2011 01:57 GMT
#560
thanks for the awsome build echoic i havent lost a tvt since i saw your daily
Prev 1 26 27 28 29 30 56 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill #217
davetesta69
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko437
SC2Nice 69
trigger 58
StarCraft: Brood War
Jaedong 1766
EffOrt 1046
firebathero 585
Stork 511
Mini 457
Snow 334
hero 246
actioN 219
Rush 161
Mind 127
[ Show more ]
Backho 116
ToSsGirL 110
Zeus 96
Hyun 92
JYJ79
Pusan 71
Sea.KH 63
sas.Sziky 61
sSak 56
HiyA 51
soO 48
Sharp 44
sorry 41
JulyZerg 35
Shinee 32
yabsab 26
Aegong 18
Rock 17
zelot 13
Terrorterran 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
IntoTheRainbow 8
SilentControl 6
Hm[arnc] 5
Dota 2
Gorgc8590
qojqva2455
syndereN345
febbydoto9
Counter-Strike
flusha426
Foxcn324
chrisJcsgo127
markeloff121
kRYSTAL_34
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor174
XaKoH 162
Other Games
B2W.Neo1797
crisheroes643
DeMusliM520
Fuzer 298
RotterdaM196
Hui .142
ArmadaUGS62
QueenE56
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick38843
BasetradeTV25
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis6346
• TFBlade835
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 55m
RSL Revival
18h 55m
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d
OSC
1d 4h
RSL Revival
1d 18h
SHIN vs Clem
FEL
1d 20h
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.