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beautiful tvt build. slight difficulty with stimmed marines, and even mass marauders suiciding parts of my tech.
i incorporate a few tanks at a certain point because of that vs. heavy bio, and even to delay the traditional marine tank final push into your base.
the build takes slightly faster reactions due to the fragility of everything in it (except BCs), but it isn't nearly as bad pulling off as people would have you believe...
just need to take advantage of the time it takes them to adapt to it (if they do), and macro/tech up appropriately
much thanks to iEchoic for this build, and also for his TvP hellion > banshee opener.
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On February 12 2011 07:55 Whitewing wrote:
RibsNGibs, this is a pretty high level build that's very technical, meaning it requires very good multitasking and mechanics to execute it well. As a gold league player, you very likely don't have that, so you might want to consider working on your mechanics before attempting to use this particular build.
That is not correct at all while the build requires micro and reaction times this is way easier to execute than any kind of standard tank+bio play. Playing a positional tank game is leagues harder on your mechanics.
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Ever since this build came out, i've been getting so many TvT wins now.....
because people are doing 2fac2port against me, and i just thor rush.
winning is too easy :/
2700 masters here
Basically i start off with 1/1, send scouting hellion to opponent base, and they can't deny scout because they'll only have 2 marines in the front. (i believe there is a way to deny hellion scout with 2 marines, but it requires good marine positioning). at that point, i'll see 2factories go up, maybe a starport, which means either mass thors, tanks, or hellions. all which a thor/marauder will counter. so i'll transition to thor marauder, and it pretty much wins me almost all games.
the key to defeating this build is denying blueflame drops, which can be pretty much done with 3 maruaders with concussive
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Dropping hellions in a base with troops still in it is silly. That's like attacking a mineral line with Mutalisks when it has 2-3 turrets in it; it just a bad idea.
But the thing is, if your opponent spends his early game resources and troops on defense (which you will see because you're scouting with your barracks), then you simply gain map control allowing you to expand and gain an economic advantage the hard way--by having more scvs. If they push out/don't defend their mineral line, you have blue flames roast their worker line. It's a win/win.
I'm not saying that this build is impossible, I'm just saying that "keeping guys in the back to defend" is the same as "I only need 5-6 turrets and my base is safe against mutalisks"
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This just in, transitioning to BCs vs 1base thor doesn't work. at all.
not sure what the proper response is there.
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On February 12 2011 13:47 Pokebunny wrote:
This just in, transitioning to BCs vs 1base thor doesn't work. at all.
not sure what the proper response is there.
Question, how many thors are there during the attack?
Maybe we can deviate to tanks if need be or perhaps our own Thors? Or maybe Banshee with Box micro with scvs repairing. Or maybe use the medivac as a time buyer (Since its armored if i recall it right) to allow your other units to hit the Thor.
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Yeah, if they do a thor rush (fastest thor possible), and drop it, you can't really have a BC in time.
I wish I had replays but thor rushes are so rare that I've only ran into it 2-3 times while starting the build (and I didn't save them), but my counter went like this:
1) As soon as thor leaves base, drop hellions in base. You will kill nearly all his SCVs and as far as I know there is no way to stop this, even if he has a couple marauders or something they won't kill your hellions fast enough. You can't rush thor and have a bunch of units at the same time.
2) As soon as you're aware this is coming, make a siege tank with your factory. Make 2x vikings. Land vikings as soon as he comes. Pull all your SCVs and attack it, as well as attacking with literally everything you have. If there's a medivac keep a viking floating to kill it. Your tank will do huge DPS, pull it away from the thor if he targets it.
3) Usually what happens is you lose 6-8 scvs and clean up the thor. He usually loses way, way more. A thor with 2 vikings a siege tank and a bunch of SCVs attacking will die.
I'd like to see more replays on this, so try this out on ladder and post replays. I'll definitely get around to looking at it. I usually beat it on ladder but it's been a while.
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I've been seeing this build so much lately in high diamond/low master's league so i had to come to TL boards and see what if i could find something similar.
sure enough, here it is.
8 out of my last 9 tvt games, my opponent used this exact build.
just reading the TL boards and using the "flavor of the month" build is almost a strategy itself apparently.
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On February 12 2011 14:00 jaebigdong wrote:
I've been seeing this build so much lately in high diamond/low master's league so i had to come to TL boards and see what if i could find something similar.
sure enough, here it is.
8 out of my last 9 tvt games, my opponent used this exact build.
just reading the TL boards and using the "flavor of the month" build is almost a strategy itself apparently.
Its what all the cool people do. 
@ iEchoic - Can you not super repair the tank faster than the Thor can kill it?
Answer: It seems like 1 tank with mass repair can take about 1/2 of a Thor by itself if you repair it immediately.
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On February 12 2011 14:02 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 14:00 jaebigdong wrote:
I've been seeing this build so much lately in high diamond/low master's league so i had to come to TL boards and see what if i could find something similar.
sure enough, here it is.
8 out of my last 9 tvt games, my opponent used this exact build.
just reading the TL boards and using the "flavor of the month" build is almost a strategy itself apparently. Its what all the cool people do. @ iEchoic - Can you not super repair the tank faster than the Thor can kill it? Answer: It seems like 1 tank with mass repair can take about 1/2 of a Thor by itself if you repair it immediately.
Cool, if you tested that, thanks. Yeah, tanks are actually really good against thors if you micro repair or micro kite them.
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Yea, its slightly less than half and unsiege tanks are quite beastly as they do more DPS to a single target than sieged. It is a shame that a Thor is basically 2 tanks taped together plus 80 HP :=
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Many people in this thread have been talking about the Addition of reapers to this build. First thing is reapers are not always useful depending on the map(sadly). you can easily get reaper speed for them due to the factories being already built, early/mid game i haven't(maybe you can) been able to squeeze reapers out with constant banshee/hellion/viking production i wasn't able to do it with only 4 gas you just don't have enough until you are mining off 6 gas. Once you've attained a 6th gas you can easily start pumping out 2 barracks worth of reapers without completely running out of gas assuming the map is good for reapers they can be used to cliff jump and try to pick off some workers(medivac+blue flame hellions is far more effective at this) or you can use them in an attempt to pick off some low hit point structures like supply depots or turrets, we all know that 4 or 5 reapers will easily destroy a Depot/turret or add-on within just a couple attacks so what i propose is for more players to attempt adding reapers into the late game on this build for the soul purpose to destroy low hit point buildings. I have had great success with this build but have had a hard time incorporating reapers without just losing the game because he rolls in with a bunch of units that you are just unable to stop(maybe when i lost these games i just didn't do the economic dmg I needed with hellions/banshees)
(sorry I cant post replays i recently lost my hard drive)
Anyways back to what i am asking,what i want is for players to attempt adding reapers into the build late game for the sole purpose to harass and destroy buildings. Real war isn't about brute strength often it becomes about Attrition(forcing you foe to take damage and use resources to recover from damage) Kind of like how dropping 4 hellions near a mineral line and then loseing them all just to claim 4 workers, they have to be rebuilt, but what if during the hellion drop you were destroying a couple add-ons or Depots? the building add-ons would slow production of units and depots would force them to rebuild them.
I sadly have had a hard time implementing them for the purpose of building killing(depots/add-ons not an actual building as it would just take to long and you would lose them for no damage) my micro isn't the best as I prefer just mastering macro before i move onto full on super micro.
I said previously i am unable to post replays(damn hard drive died on me) i am really looking forward to seeing people post their own reps of their addition of reapers to even see if its a viable option before/during pumping out BC in the very late stretch of the game.
I will try later this week to get some replays of me attempting to add reapers to this variation of TvT wish me luck, as i wish you all the same in your attempts!
Note: using reapers the same way as hellions is redundant and a waste of resources so using them for a different purpose is far better!!!!
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Ok so I lost with this tactic about 5 times in a row vs very early mm pressure.
Dont get me wrong, Im loving this build, havent lost when there was no early pressure yet, but I cant seem to get my banshee out early enough to deal with those marauders.
Any1 have any idea how to counter this/ proximate supply to build 1st and 2nd sp? thnx in advance. If you need replays, tell me where/how to upload ^^
(2600dia)
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The problem with reapers is that if you don't knee cap them early on and he's doing a turtle style. Then he will probably have enough defenses to deny reapers until he moves out. So I guess if you want to pull his army back to defend, its a good move.
However, in my experience 1 sieged tank will basically deal with any reasonable amount of reapers. Also, if you can go reaper, you can go mass marauder. And having those marauders basically allows you to shut down most mech plays ultra hard since marines and a silly amount of tanks are their only ground counter to mass marauder.
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Ha ha ha. That game against Baz was priceless. I love the 'suck an egg' opening, but ultimately it was the transition to ragequit that cost him the game.
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/wave hello all i left a post on the other 2 port 2 factory build, and although i am not knocking this build i am here to say it can be beaten :p scouting at right times is essential not taking any eco damage is fairly important and id say the most important thing is to be agressive and throw ur opponent off their build, the majority of players using this build are just copy'ing what they have seen, they are not pro's, they do make mistakes and that is much more likely to happen if you are putting the pressure on them, i do have 2 questions though
1. what maps does it work best on ( this way players can be aware that on specific maps this build is a likely option)
2. At what time can a Terran either scout the base or scan to see that this build is coming ( to have enough time to react accordingly)
Alot of players are saying things like....viking thor is the answer,,,,,sensor towers and turrets, where it's not the turret or tower thats gonna win or lose you the game, it is if he does the eco damage while ur scratching ur ass wondering what to do,
All in all although this build is currently strong in TvT it will be replaced within a month or 2 from now by another pro, there will be countless threads on these forums, with thousands of people just shouting random unit compositions they think will beat it without any actual knowledge or proff, All i ask that instead of falling into that trap, watch replays see when you can be aggressive towards these players and farmiliarise yourself with their timings and styles, and think, its not what unit you make that wins you the game its everything from the timings to the element of surprise to how you use the units
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On February 13 2011 02:38 samboi wrote:
/wave hello all i left a post on the other 2 port 2 factory build, and although i am not knocking this build i am here to say it can be beaten :p scouting at right times is essential not taking any eco damage is fairly important and id say the most important thing is to be agressive and throw ur opponent off their build,
Any build can be beaten if the player does what you say there, that's not a weakness of the build, that's the nature of the game.
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Any sightings of htis in TLOpen?
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On February 13 2011 03:38 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Any sightings of htis in TLOpen?
+ Show Spoiler +Root.qxc just used it or something really similar and completely dominated. Had 4 hellions out in no time against an FE. Forced a rage quit. Not really a test of the build though.
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On February 13 2011 03:40 allecto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 03:38 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Any sightings of htis in TLOpen? + Show Spoiler +Root.qxc just used it or something really similar and completely dominated. Had 4 hellions out in no time against an FE. Forced a rage quit. Not really a test of the build though.
Argh! Gutted I missed that 
Will need that VOD once its available.
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EPT
