EPTI dont think this is viable. If I scout it, all I have to do is match your viking count and marauder/tank.
[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 23
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
I dont think this is viable. If I scout it, all I have to do is match your viking count and marauder/tank. | ||
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Arlequin
Canada41 Posts
On February 11 2011 13:44 Pro]ChoSen- wrote: How on earth do u deal with fast siege mode pushes? You said you don't get cloak. I don't understand how hellions will do any damage vs tanks in siege mode. Ya you can drop him but then u'll just trade bases and he has an army that can kill yours. By the way I'm not being skeptical of the build, I'm just curious how you deal with fast siege pushes. The replay in the day[9] daily where the VTPokeBunny guy fast pushed you with tanks, he didn't have siege so he lost all his support units. With siege you wouldn't have just been able to run ur Hellions into battle? Iechoic explained the importance of having the map control (xelnaga tower) if you see him moving out you can counter drop 2 hellion in his base if you have a lot of hellion and while the marines and tanks are moving out you can hit an run ! Dont let him take position on you So before he siege on your ramp, abuse the mobility of the hellion and poke his army ! You have to think in a zvt way, if you can siege your tank at the zerg expo you in good position but the problem is every smart zerg will just wait for you to unsiege your tank and move their banelings in ! | ||
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
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LaMatrone
Canada24 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:15 Elgren wrote: Hum... This is very interesting, I love it acutally! I did view the Day9 daily episode on this and I really love your strategy. However when it comes to build it seems like alot of resources into production facilities on 1 base so im thinking this: Why not try to make one less factory? We produce only 1 helion at the time while we use the techlab that the barracks built but meanwhile we dont build another factory but rather a starport and a reactor on the barracks. Because if you go with 1 factory you wont have the 3 hellion in time with the medivac + blue flame to do a drop in the line from the start... also, the factory is a really good investment for later. There is also the fact that the hellion are disposable and 2 factory give you plenty of structure to make hellion in case of a massive marine attack (he put 2 reactor on the factory after a little while. | ||
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LaMatrone
Canada24 Posts
On February 11 2011 11:29 Meta wrote: Adding 5 raxes and 6 reactors out of nowhere, after 2 fac 2 port opening? Off 1 base economy? Obviously Marauder/Thor/Viking is the best counter to this style. And obviously mass marine is good against that combination. I don't see how that added anything. Teching Marauder + Thor + Viking + upgrades? I think that banshee + Viking + hellion (with double upgraded viking and banshee would rip throught unupgraded thor viking marauder) | ||
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concerned
Canada11 Posts
On February 11 2011 13:50 Soulish wrote: Ive had 3 people try it against me so far in tvt... and now I'm 3 wins up the ladder. I dont think this is viable. If I scout it, all I have to do is match your viking count and marauder/tank. I don't think that doing both those things is actually possible if this is executed properly, If you are making marauders and tanks that is gas you don't have to commit to the air, so the player dedicating all his gas to the air should win the viking war, and any banshees he's built previously will mop up any marauders and tanks. | ||
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LaMatrone
Canada24 Posts
On February 11 2011 12:46 stormchaser wrote: Amazingly cool build order. Has anyone here tried implementing reapers into the build to see if there is any usefulness? Another question, what if the opponent has seen this build many times before and can scout it immediately thus transitions into making exclusively a mauarader/marine force. He places his mauraders in his scv line while keeping his marines at another corner of his base. The hellions are unable to do economic damage and the banshees would be wiped out with a quick scan/stim from the hidden marines. Obviously this sounds very cookie cutter-ish and unlikely, but am I mistaken for this being a very effective way to get rid of a possible attack? Hell, you could leave 3-4 mauraders everytime you attack (in the mineral field), albeit that means a smaller attacking force. I don't play terran so I could be completely wrong. If you let your whole army in your base defending, it's true that he cant damage you. However, you cant damage him either which means you would be pinned. In this scenario, he can just double expand while you turtle up and he can bring so¸me BC's in the mix and crush you over time. If you let 3-4 marauder to defend your base, it means that early on you have 3-4 marauder less to attack with so you would just suicide your attacking army for no reason, in either case you ewould get killed over time. (my thoughts) | ||
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snadmonkey
United States26 Posts
Yes Thors counter vikings/banshee/helions. They are slow however and are typically not rush tech'd to so he should have time to grab BC or two if you try thors. Yes you can rush thors to beat this, but thats like pointing out raven tech rush rapes cloaked banshee's, sure it does but who does that? It is so weak to other builds its a bad opener in general. Also people talk about some kind of 2-4 tank seige mode push, realize it takes tanks 3 shots to kill helions, they are also somewhat larger than bio, meaning less splash damage, they are also fast can can reach a siege tank before a second shot. End point early small number tanks are not enough to save your marines unless you keep them far from tanks, making tanks weak to banshees. If you thinking of a like 8 marine 1 tank push without siege mode, the helion drop would kill you. One thing I've yet to see out of this build is a 'long' game, where you end up 3--5 bases etc. Does composition hold up at 200/200 etc. I think this becomes a mute point cause if game is going on that long you should obviously tech switch to mass BC/viking or something along that line. | ||
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Marksman
Malaysia523 Posts
BlinK vs MarksmanKNG on Xel'Naga Caverns I have an FPVOD of the build vs a 3 rax (Duno what rank he is though lol in the spoiler), Mistakes are clearly noted in the description. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9MSz0mL52Y | ||
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Washow
Korea (South)119 Posts
Not blaming the build. Totally my fuck up ugh | ||
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MooseSoup
United States21 Posts
I was struggling so hard in my TvT, but everytime I go to this build I win the matchup; it's insane. I was just edging on masters and the only thing holding me back was my TvT, but it looks like you fixed that good sir  Thank you very much for sharing with the community! | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On February 11 2011 14:35 snadmonkey wrote: So in regards to people who keep saying I'll just match your viking count then go mara or tank kind of builds. You should not be able to outproduce him in vikings. First off your dumping gas into tanks/mara/stim etc, iechoic's build has all gas going into air. Also its pretty standard if its going to be viking wars for a terran to grab a raven, again he has more gas and faster starports, get more vikings and ravens. The core idea of this build is that you do not lose air control. Honestly the weakness of this build, is if you can catch his air force by surpise with marines. Yeah you definitely cannot go marauder tank and match viking count but I can't see that anyone serious or with a reputable ladder level is suggesting that. What is suggested though and very much viable is marauder thor and try to match viking count. A single thor combined with vikings if you have way less vikings is enough to deny aggression. This is not in any way new to everyone who has been playing tank/viking for a long time. When you lost the viking war, you got a thor or two to get back. In a more varied tvt build that trade off was not a big deal because if your opponent challenged your air dominance with viking+thor you would instead go for heavier bio and take advantage but this build puts all the eggs in the air control basket. There is no transition from losing air control, the transition is into being dead. So the person doing this style of play, in the face of thor+viking ends up in the exact same impossible position as his opponent did in face of hellion/banshee banshee's forces marines, which are killed by the hellions. In this case, the thor forces bc's or banshee's which die to vikings, and the vikings force more vikings. You can either keep massing vikings of two reactored ports and just have only vikings and flat out die, or you can try to deal with the thors by going for bc's and banshee's but if your opponent knows how to react and just keeps making vikings, that transition of yours is going to lose you the air control all the same by losing in viking count. Once thors are in the field, the harder you try to take air control with just air, the harder you lose. The build is good, it is very powerful but unless you transition into something ground based, and unless you do significant damage in the early game you will lose inevitably to someone who understands this build. I think the majority of success that this build is having on the ladder is because current metagame is of terran to either fast expand, or to do a tank marine push, which both dies to this. A tank marine opener however where there is no push is pretty safe if you scout this and micro well. The build against tank/marine sort of gambles that the tank player will actually move out onto the map so that you can counter drop or kill the army when it is vulnerable. But this build can't as day9 pointed out actually not go in and kill you, and if you know this then you won't give the player a chance to do so. | ||
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eastdragon
12 Posts
On February 10 2011 04:45 Dalavita wrote: You get air superiority by actually going for vikings while he's going for banshee+vikings+medivacs+raven thus having one starport with tech lab and one with reactor. Even if you have a greater number of vikings, isn't vikings + raven > mass vikings simply because of PDD? | ||
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snadmonkey
United States26 Posts
I guess the major question that needs to be asked, what if your opponent scouts your build, just finding second gas lets him know blue flame drop. He approriatly defends while tech rushing thors, pushs out with what 2-3 viking and 2-3 thor kind of army, bunker in base to stop helions. What can you do if you see he is thor rushing you other than trying to econ trade? Can you tech switch to a marine/banshee build, or would that even work? At this point ur still one base and you can't realistically build BC off 1 base. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
Responding to a couple of points I've been seeing a lot: What about reapers? I haven't experimented with these since I was asked the question on the daily, so you guys should give it a shot. You're definitely free to experiment with the build as you see fit. The gas cost may be prohibitive but they may find some use in the late game. Post results! What about xxx/xxx or xxx and xxx or xxx and xxx and xxx timing push with blah blah: I don't want to get into responding to a lot of theorycrafty stuff because a lot of it is hard to work out without actually playing it in game. If you have trouble with a certain thing not mentioned, post up a replay and hopefully me or someone else can help you out. There's not too much value in saying "well I could just go marauder/viking/thor etc" without some games to back it up. I'd love to see replays if you run into stuff like that though. I will respond to one, though: For example, a common suggestion is marauder/viking. First of all, this composition loses immediately to anyone who makes marines, so it's a pretty nonsensical build, and the 2fact2port build has no obvious tells (you can force out the scout before the 2nd refinery goes down and only one poking hellion reveals nothing), so it'd have to be a blind counter. But let's say someone tries to blind counter you with that. Well, all of my units I'm producing except vikings take no gas, and marauders take gas. So now you're already behind on the viking war. So you either need to make marauders, and lose air control, or make no or very few marauders, and contest air control. If you make few marauders, you're just going to die to hellions, because the only other non-gas units you can make are marines. I think the weakness with theorycrafting is you make up builds that have obvious strengths and ignore their weaknesses. Yeah, if you had a ton of vikings and some marauders, that'd be sweet. But what are you going to attack with? 4-5 marauders and 25 vikings? How are you going to stop hellions from running in (or attacking your buildings if you wall your expo)? Landing vikings? Then my vikings can float in and camp your vikings or kill the non-landed ones. If you went full vikings and spend extra minerals on marines/marauders, what if I just landed my vikings and killed you? Because a marine/marauder force is going to be pretty crappy vs a mass of hellions.I don't think this is a realistic counter if you play the 2fact2port right. How would you best counter the build? As far as I know the build has no 'counter' just as all solid builds have no 'counters'. The best way to play against it, as Pokebunny said earlier, is just to commit to a response. It could be marine/tank. It could be MMM. Defend well, micro and macro well, and play as best as you can. What you don't want to do is try to tech switch into massing vikings, thors, etc. It's tempting to try to transition to 'hard counter' your opponent when really you just need to play a solid fundamental game. The build is not an insta-win, so you can still outplay your opponent to win, like always. On the flip side, if you lose with the build, it's not because the build is broken, it's because you got outplayed. Boink. I think I can counter this with thors Check out the game against Baz in the replay pack in the OP. I completely miss the thors and have no battlecruisers at all. He attacks with 3 thors at the end and I actually kill the 3 thors cost-effectively just by landing vikings, pulling SCVs (I barely lost any) and attacking with hellions even though our army size is relatively close (mine is slightly ahead and that's because of defenders advantage - producing units while your opponent is moving across the map - which is strengthened by slow thors). Thors actually aren't that great. Discussion about day[9] games Someone mentioned that pokebunny didn't have siege mode in the first game in the daily. This is true, but sieged tanks aren't actually much better than unsieged tanks vs hellions and in some situations they're actually worse. If he had tried to siege up my ramp it would have just opened my banshee up to pick at the sides and kill marines while he slowly trudges into my base. My vikings could have sniped at his own banshees, killing them before they even do anything. I had no buildings by my ramp so he would have had to slow-push up my ramp into my base. During that time, I'd be getting more units out, and would have even more by time I run my hellions in. The pace of his attack would have slowed greatly. In more general terms, sieged tanks don't do very good DPS to hellions and their splash isn't very big because of the large unit model of the hellion. Sieging isn't a terrible decision vs hellions but it's not super good, either. Upgrades Get upgrades! Just because I don't in most of my replays doesn't mean you shouldn't - that's a flaw in my gameplay, not an ideal strategy. Air armor is excellent, and air weapons are good as well. | ||
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Ceremony
7 Posts
On February 11 2011 19:07 iEchoic wrote: Someone mentioned that pokebunny didn't have siege mode in the first game in the daily. This is true, but sieged tanks aren't actually much better than unsieged tanks vs hellions and in some situations they're actually worse. I agree with this. The first time I tried this out my opponent had siege mode by the time I finished him off, but it didn't matter. Mobility comes into play here and hellions are very fast, so its easy to micro them away or right up on siege tanks which renders them pretty much useless. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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veljanov
Sweden33 Posts
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Giantorange
Canada24 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 11 2011 21:57 veljanov wrote: was wondering if someone have done this strat and there opponent also did this?, couse it sounds like it whould be a strange match. and what should you focus on then? Vikings, you cannot give up air control. Go mass viking and get those air upgrades. Hellions don't perform very well against them and neither do the other main components of this build. I suppose you could probably take your natural behind marines and mass bunkers if you want some ideas. | ||
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