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On February 11 2011 09:06 Whitewing wrote:
GP, tanks do a lot of DPS when unsieged, and the siege is only particularly useful against large groups of enemies. If you expect your foe to not have a lot of infantry, siege isn't needed. In fact, against a single target, they do more damage unsieged faster than they do sieged.
Siege wouldn't have won him that fight, the banshee did it's job well, and the hellions only need a couple attacks to incinerate all the marines.
This build is actually very stable against all terran openers, there are only a couple that are risky and with proper scouting information, you can adjust and get a bunker down or other necessary defenses.
Plus, the counter drops are pretty freaking nasty.
Yeah, I know Tank DPS is that high unsieged, but it was still kind of wtf attack. I guess it almost worked and would have had his banshee not been out. Yeah, I'm just saying I'd love to see some replays against a tank-viking opener, since all of the replays I've seen have been against 1-rax expand, which it seems to work beautifully against. The counter-drops are definitely a bitch too. I love how he said he uses them kind of like mutas, it forces the Terran to stay in his base.
On February 11 2011 09:06 Whitewing wrote:It is a little bit weak against very early marauders, but I'm not sure that the terran would have enough marauders out before the first banshee is out to really do the kind of damage needed. A couple marines and some hellions can delay marauders enough, since they are light.
I would hope so, if I saw somebody going heavy helion that early I would just try and break them with marauders before any banshees pop. It just seems like you really need that bunker at your ramp since helions are so hilariously bad at killing marauders, and he doesn't build more than 2 marines.
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Hum...
This is very interesting, I love it acutally!
I did view the Day9 daily episode on this and I really love your strategy.
However when it comes to build it seems like alot of resources into production facilities on 1 base so im thinking this:
Why not try to make one less factory? We produce only 1 helion at the time while we use the techlab that the barracks built but meanwhile we dont build another factory but rather a starport and a reactor on the barracks. As soon as blueflame upgrade finish we lift and use the reactor with the factory and give the techlab to the first starport? and we add another starport.... That way we get double helion with blueflame production AND 2 starports.
I dont know if iEchoic has tryed this and it has some kind of problem, just my first taught after seeing the replays from the day9 daily.
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Wow this looks great!
The only thing I can see wrong is if the terran goes fast thor. I believe (I'm not quite sure as I just saw this now) someone did this build against me, and got a battlecruiser out, the problem was, I just kited the battlecruiser with one thor, and attacked with another.
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If they don't wall, QXC's ghost first opening. I ran in to this on ladder and I happened to be doing ghost first on Delta, and when the ghost arrived he had the 2 marines and a hellion just popped. It's a free worker buffet at that point!
EDIT: Of course, that's more of a rock-paper-scissors kind of situation. Moral of the story is, if you don't wall with this strat, you're vulnerable to a potential ghost opening.
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Well I made this post about the best ways to combat this style in a thread that got closed immediately so I might as well copy/paste it here. This is based on my experience only.
-I feel like marine tank can combat this as long as you know when to commit with your marines (taking out an expo/ taking out enemy air and when to fall back to your tanks. Remember if his helion squad starts to wither you can always surround and kill it with marines. If you lose your mass of marines its pretty much GG when his banshees swoop in however.
-A really slow mech style with a lot of turrets could work but I don't know from experience
-I don't think going for air superiority and trying to beat them at their own game is the best idea vs someone who does this build every tvt, but who knows.
-The one thing the build counters pretty hard is MM.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2011 09:15 Elgren wrote:
Hum...
This is very interesting, I love it acutally!
I did view the Day9 daily episode on this and I really love your strategy.
However when it comes to build it seems like alot of resources into production facilities on 1 base so im thinking this:
Why not try to make one less factory? We produce only 1 helion at the time while we use the techlab that the barracks built but meanwhile we dont build another factory but rather a starport and a reactor on the barracks. As soon as blueflame upgrade finish we lift and use the reactor with the factory and give the techlab to the first starport? and we add another starport.... That way we get double helion with blueflame production AND 2 starports.
I dont know if iEchoic has tryed this and it has some kind of problem, just my first taught after seeing the replays from the day9 daily.
It's probably (I'm not certain) a timing thing. Reactors take a very long time to build, and he probably needs more hellions out quickly than he can get off one factory while waiting for a reactor to build. Plus, he can support a second factory later anyway, so he might as well get the second.
-A really slow mech style with a lot of turrets could work but I don't know from experience
With the map control you get from this build, you could easily mass expand and just walk over them with battlecruisers.
I'm actually an enormous fan of this build, and I don't even play terran. You have no idea how tired I am of players who are only able to play one type of build (like MMM) and just think every other build is trash because they can't execute it, and then call all of their other units useless and beg for buffs.
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On February 11 2011 09:15 Elgren wrote:
Why not try to make one less factory? We produce only 1 helion at the time while we use the techlab that the barracks built but meanwhile we dont build another factory but rather a starport and a reactor on the barracks. As soon as blueflame upgrade finish we lift and use the reactor with the factory and give the techlab to the first starport? and we add another starport.... That way we get double helion with blueflame production AND 2 starports.
I dont know if iEchoic has tryed this and it has some kind of problem, just my first taught after seeing the replays from the day9 daily.
Producing only one hellion at a time for the entire duration of the pre-igniter upgrade build-time would leave some huge vulnerabilities in the event that the opponent decides to do a pure marine push. In the even that they don't, you'd have just a bit less early map control as well.
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On close proximity maps a good thing to do with your barracks would probably to put it up front along with a bunker so any bio attack has to funnel through a choke point, which should make things very nice for your hellions at home.
At the very least they will spend time probably killing it instead of running in further to kill scvs or other import tech structures.
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You guys r looking for ways to counter it, and u must understand no1 have ever said that this BO is the best for TVT, and that its hard to counter.. Its just another great way to plat TVT...
I think TVT as always was, comes to good micro, espically when blue flame hellions r a crucial part of ur army, u must focus fire them with good angles on marines and no tanks/maras.. so iEchoic's BO is for sure the hardest to micro, but got a really good benefit of haras potentional...
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I got this used against my 1 rax FE, ended up switching to Thors too late and got roflpwned by BC's.
Marauder / Thor / Viking would counter it.
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On February 11 2011 10:31 Dr. Nick wrote:
I got this used against my 1 rax FE, ended up switching to Thors too late and got roflpwned by BC's.
Marauder / Thor / Viking would counter it.
And if he decides to tech switch to 6 reactor Barracks + Marines?
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On February 11 2011 11:02 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 10:31 Dr. Nick wrote:
I got this used against my 1 rax FE, ended up switching to Thors too late and got roflpwned by BC's.
Marauder / Thor / Viking would counter it. And if he decides to tech switch to 6 reactor Barracks + Marines?
Adding 5 raxes and 6 reactors out of nowhere, after 2 fac 2 port opening? Off 1 base economy? Obviously Marauder/Thor/Viking is the best counter to this style. And obviously mass marine is good against that combination. I don't see how that added anything.
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Not really sure how that works. He makes vikings until he's sure he has air control (if you watched the day9 vod).
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On February 11 2011 12:05 dmasterding wrote:
Not really sure how that works. He makes vikings until he's sure he has air control (if you watched the day9 vod).
One of the problematic issues here
Like making a ton of vikings for 1 colos, and on the other side, he can have 1 more vikings then u and it might be gg
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United States7483 Posts
One of the problematic issues here
Like making a ton of vikings for 1 colos, and on the other side, he can have 1 more vikings then u and it might be gg
But the terran has nothing to punish you for it if he's trying to fight you for air control. You make vikings until you've got an air lead, sniping off their vikings, then you get banshees. If they make vikings, you make vikings out of one starport and banshees out of the other, and you've got hellions.
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Sorry if my question has been answered.
I looked at your replays. Taking the last one you highlighted, at 6:22 you had 6 rines and a half constructed bunker, you were on your way to helions. Fair enough. But none yet. I'm not sure anyone can get two helions much inside 7 minutes.
I tried the build with less marines, just two, and against the non cheating single player Fyn AI on Jungle Basin.
The thing is, at 5:28 I get 3 marauders at my ramp, and during the one sided battle they also get concussive shells. I can't get a helion out before they arrive. It arrives while they are attacking whatever is within reach, first helion doesn't have blue flame - but even if it did, concussive renders the helion speed useless. GG AI.
What I am missing?
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United States7483 Posts
Sorry if my question has been answered.
I looked at your replays. Taking the last one you highlighted, at 6:22 you had 6 rines and a half constructed bunker, you were on your way to helions. Fair enough. But none yet. I'm not sure anyone can get two helions much inside 7 minutes.
I tried the build with less marines, just two, and against the non cheating single player Fyn AI on Jungle Basin.
The thing is, at 5:28 I get 3 marauders at my ramp, and during the one sided battle they also get concussive shells. I can't get a helion out before they arrive. It arrives while they are attacking whatever is within reach, it doesn't have blue flame - but it matters not because concussive renders the helion speed useless. GG AI.
What I am missing?
Scout, and if you see your opponent making early marauders, throw down a bunker, and get your marines in there. Pull a few scv's to deal with the marauders, then *bam* you're fine. No way 3 marauders are gonna beat a bunker being repaired.
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This build reminds me of my pvp build before the matchup became a 4gate fest. It was 3gate/1robo/1stargate and i would make voids if they went robo heavy, and immortal zealot sentry if they went stalker heavy...ect.
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Amazingly cool build order. Has anyone here tried implementing reapers into the build to see if there is any usefulness?
Another question, what if the opponent has seen this build many times before and can scout it immediately thus transitions into making exclusively a mauarader/marine force. He places his mauraders in his scv line while keeping his marines at another corner of his base. The hellions are unable to do economic damage and the banshees would be wiped out with a quick scan/stim from the hidden marines. Obviously this sounds very cookie cutter-ish and unlikely, but am I mistaken for this being a very effective way to get rid of a possible attack? Hell, you could leave 3-4 mauraders everytime you attack (in the mineral field), albeit that means a smaller attacking force. I don't play terran so I could be completely wrong.
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How on earth do u deal with fast siege mode pushes? You said you don't get cloak. I don't understand how hellions will do any damage vs tanks in siege mode. Ya you can drop him but then u'll just trade bases and he has an army that can kill yours.
By the way I'm not being skeptical of the build, I'm just curious how you deal with fast siege pushes. The replay in the day[9] daily where the VTPokeBunny guy fast pushed you with tanks, he didn't have siege so he lost all his support units. With siege you wouldn't have just been able to run ur Hellions into battle?
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EPT
