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On February 07 2011 17:25 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Does this work in silver league? I was about to drop 4 helions on the enemy terrans base when he came to be base with 10 marines and a sieged tank and owned me !
if you're blind that not work, (did you control the Xel'Nagas?) how many many times did you do this build? Don't post that if you tried once.
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On February 07 2011 17:25 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Does this work in silver league? I was about to drop 4 helions on the enemy terrans base when he came to be base with 10 marines and a sieged tank and owned me !
Logically any build will work in any league so long as scouting is done properly.
If you see 10 marines +tank move cross the map then don't leave, build a banshee (if you have time or suspect it coming).
This build brutally murders any early rine pressure place your hellions properly at the top of your ramp and they all get fried, then all you have to worry about is the tank, and well a tank will still lose to 6 hellions or so. Then drop their ass they have no shit to defend with.
If they try to pull back then, as Day[9] says, ''faster unit punish mistakes'' so the marines still die.
NOTE: What I've found is that you need to transition to BCs quickly since a bunch of thors and tanks will kill you other wise, but luckily that takes ages to build up so you have time.
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Does this work in silver league? I was about to drop 4 helions on the enemy terrans base when he came to be base with 10 marines and a sieged tank and owned me !
Did you miss the part where iEchoic specifically stated that this is a reactionary build and that controlling both the xelnaga watchtowers with your first two marines is extremely important to ward off any early aggression? If you did then there is your problem.
I had a game yesterday where my opponent realised what strategy I was going for and rushed out a Thor. He got it too late to do any real damage to me though since I nuked his mineral line as usual with my hellions and just kept his counter attacks in check with hellions / vikings and banshees.
As soon as I noticed his first Thor I slapped down a bunch of barracks and immediately started making a fusion core. The marauders I pumped out where enough to force his first Thor to back off and when his 2nd attack came I had two BC's ready for him. So yes, Thor's are very hard to deal with if you suddenly find yourself facing them at your door step but as mentioned in the OP scouting is very important and you should always be aware of what your opponent is doing at all times to prevent that kind of stuff from happening in the first place.
As to anyone who is wondering if this build works in different leagues, namely those of the lower kind : the answer is yes. I used to be a high Plat player who took a break and got cheesed into Gold shortly after. I beat 90% of my opponents in my TvT's, most of them are high Diamond / Plat. I think it's the combination of map control, counter building and "I don't know WHAT the hell this guy is doing but it's working.." that makes this whole thing actually function as a very solid but fun build at the same time.
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Hmmm definitely something to try out. Us terran players are always looking for new ways to spice up our TvTs from the standard tank/viking spam. I'm curious because I don't think I saw this but how often do you scan your opponent? Can you afford not to use mules or are you scanning frequently?
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thanks as usual for this more than decent contribution. I usually dont bother with the sc2 strategy section anymore but when i saw iechoic and realised it was a new build i couldnt resist.
What i like most about this is the simple fact that there is no crying and bitching about balance because of the mirror matchup.
Its refreshing to say the least. Kudos. Your contribution to the community and the amount of effort you put into your posts is commendable and well received by your fellow terrans, and you are an example to everyone on tl of how ops should post in the strategy section.
Thanks again and keepemcoming
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So, I've had some decent success with this build but I've found it to be EXTREMELY APM intensive. You need at least 150+ APM to properly play this build in Masters.
That being said, I think this is the strongest TvT build out there. It is EXTREMELY versatile with the double starport opening, and hellion drops can win you the game outright if things go well for you. I've lost more games with this than I've won, but that's because I'm playing way too slowly for the heavy multitasking required for this, rather than the build being weak.
I love this build and I'm going to keep using it until I get it right. Trying to play this build alone has probably brought my APM by at least ~20, up from 100ish to 120! Thanks iEchoic 
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On February 08 2011 00:44 Synystyr wrote:So, I've had some decent success with this build but I've found it to be EXTREMELY APM intensive. You need at least 150+ APM to properly play this build in Masters. That being said, I think this is the strongest TvT build out there. It is EXTREMELY versatile with the double starport opening, and hellion drops can win you the game outright if things go well for you. I've lost more games with this than I've won, but that's because I'm playing way too slowly for the heavy multitasking required for this, rather than the build being weak. I love this build and I'm going to keep using it until I get it right. Trying to play this build alone has probably brought my APM by at least ~20, up from 100ish to 120! Thanks iEchoic
I'd disagree with you. I usually have less than 100 apm (more like 80) and i have no problem with this build at all (@ 2800 masters). Although i only played about 6 games with this so far, i never had the impression that my apm was limiting me.
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On February 08 2011 00:49 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 00:44 Synystyr wrote:So, I've had some decent success with this build but I've found it to be EXTREMELY APM intensive. You need at least 150+ APM to properly play this build in Masters. That being said, I think this is the strongest TvT build out there. It is EXTREMELY versatile with the double starport opening, and hellion drops can win you the game outright if things go well for you. I've lost more games with this than I've won, but that's because I'm playing way too slowly for the heavy multitasking required for this, rather than the build being weak. I love this build and I'm going to keep using it until I get it right. Trying to play this build alone has probably brought my APM by at least ~20, up from 100ish to 120! Thanks iEchoic I'd disagree with you. I usually have less than 100 apm (more like 80) and i have no problem with this build at all (@ 2800 masters). Although i only played about 6 games with this so far, i never had the impression that my apm was limiting me.
Idk...for me, controlling the hellion drops, while rallying banshees and getting them to do damage in the right locations and not have everything die WHILE trying to not get supply blocked macro and get an expansion up at a decent time is a lot for me to handle at once. Not to mention this build is really reliant on good scouting and holding watchtowers, so that adds to the APM dump list 
I'm not complaining at all, I like the challenge of having to play fast and it really makes me feel like I'm improving a lot. My TvT game sense and scouting are much better now. I've just found it hard to make sure I take care of all the marines with my hellions without losing them, and then properly inserting my banshees to do the correct damage. I could just have terrible micro also xD
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On February 08 2011 00:56 Synystyr wrote:
I'm not complaining at all, I like the challenge of having to play fast and it really makes me feel like I'm improving a lot.
This is actually the main reason why I like this build that much, aside from it being pretty damn fun. You're forced to bring up your play if you want to execute it better.
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I find it easier to play than bio tank viking tbh. Its more straightforward, a lot less positional maneuvering and constant army movement.
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This build beat David Kim, so I approve instantly
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On February 04 2011 17:29 iTzSnypah wrote:Im sorry but this build doesnt work against banshee rushes at all, his first banshee will be at your base before you start your viking/raven... HEREthat proves it, and to top it all off he was abusing the bunker glitch on lt...(and he wasn't the real slayersboxer)
Watching this you didn't execute the build properly so it is not a valid example of losing to fast banshees. The biggest problem was you dropped a MULE instead of a supply and this set back your first factory by 20 seconds.
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Lots of people are doing this strategy on ladder. Unfortunately, they are not performing it too well. Although I almost always lose a good number of scvs, my 2factory thor transition destroys them every game. BC just takes too long to transition to. I do think it is a strong strategy nonetheless.
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On February 08 2011 04:15 Mr_Kyo wrote:
Lots of people are doing this strategy on ladder. Unfortunately, they are not performing it too well. Although I almost always lose a good number of scvs, my 2factory thor transition destroys them every game. BC just takes too long to transition to. I do think it is a strong strategy nonetheless.
Do you depend on scans to shoot cloaked banshees? Or get ravens? How do you prepare to push back against this build if he doesnt get BCs?
@iechoic: I did this build today and got raped by a regular blue flame hellion drop how do you defend this?
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On February 08 2011 04:55 heyyouyesyou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 04:15 Mr_Kyo wrote:
Lots of people are doing this strategy on ladder. Unfortunately, they are not performing it too well. Although I almost always lose a good number of scvs, my 2factory thor transition destroys them every game. BC just takes too long to transition to. I do think it is a strong strategy nonetheless. Do you depend on scans to shoot cloaked banshees? Or get ravens? How do you prepare to push back against this build if he doesnt get BCs? @iechoic: I did this build today and got raped by a regular blue flame hellion drop how do you defend this?
With your own hellions - you should have more and also blue flame. The key is - like with every strat against hellion drop - spotting it and also a bit of simcity around the mineral line helps.
I just had this happen to me an hour ago - he killed about 5 of my scvs with the drop. I countered and killed all of his (he only had marines to defend) :D
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On February 08 2011 04:55 heyyouyesyou wrote:
@iechoic: I did this build today and got raped by a regular blue flame hellion drop how do you defend this?
Although it comes before your own drop, this one is pretty fast on the blue flame upgrade (you would need gas before rax, which is quite scoutable, to get blue flame faster), and since you have two factories you should have spare hellions when you go to drop.
So if you scout no aggression, and probably tech, with the tower yours, you can use these spares to spot incoming drops by scouting the outskirts of your base and catch him when he drops. Even if you don't, you should still have hellions home (and reinforcements from 2 facs) to defend. The most important thing is to prevent him to ignore your hellions and try to sacrifice his to kill a maximum of scvs.
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one of the most important things when facing hellions drops, is to not do anything with ur workers, cuz any movment command will just line them nicely to get froasted in 1 shot.
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On February 08 2011 05:13 dohgg wrote:
one of the most important things when facing hellions drops, is to not do anything with ur workers, cuz any movment command will just line them nicely to get froasted in 1 shot.
Or you can do the super gosu F1 worker split xD
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172241#1
It works really well once you've practiced it enough ^.-
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EPT
