EPToh so this how the pros make a super split for workers to mine on the start of the game..
[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 15
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dohgg
310 Posts
oh so this how the pros make a super split for workers to mine on the start of the game.. | ||
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
On February 08 2011 05:29 dohgg wrote: nice... didnt know this oh so this how the pros make a super split for workers to mine on the start of the game.. I don't think so I think they use the 3,3 split or the 2,2,2 split | ||
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OrangeNinja21
United States84 Posts
(at least in the low-mid diamond level) Over the past couple days, every TvT I have played has been a loss due to hellion drops and banshees. Upon inspecting the replays, all of my opponents were doing this build and it is truly amazing to see the versatility of it, especially from the receiving end ( I had tried a variety of openings that were subsequently squashed). I know you touched upon it in your post, but I am still curious as to how such a TvT will play out when both players perform this build. | ||
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EximoSua2
United States216 Posts
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Toxi78
966 Posts
basicly here is how i see it : all game long i sneak in hellions, doing drops and run-bys even against a few tanks because you gain a lot of little advantages (mid game) or a huge one (early game) while you keep yourself updated about their positioning and army composition. a lot of early agression is a freewin if you pull scvs while murdering marines with hellions because you can do OO much damage with blue flame right after it. | ||
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GeForceFX
Lithuania101 Posts
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JamesSwift
United States71 Posts
On February 08 2011 06:12 OrangeNinja21 wrote: ... I know you touched upon it in your post, but I am still curious as to how such a TvT will play out when both players perform this build. Being a random player, and using this build in all my TvT's recently, I have only run into the mirror one time. It ended up feeling a LOT like ZvZ ling/bane wars where you are trying to get an advantage in workers while trying not to lose all your hellions all at one (to another group of hellions...) It all comes down to how much econ damage you both do on the initial drop (especially since there is nothing either side can do to prevent the drop in the first place) and who gets started on vikings first. If you give up hellion superiority, you likely lose. | ||
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Tesla12
Serbia71 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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REM.ca
Canada354 Posts
Been practicing this build and having a lot of trouble vs close position early rushes (I know you don't recommend this build in those situations but I'm stubborn) so here's how I've modified your build a bit to deal with these situations. Would appreciate feedback from anyone. When scouting close positions, I delay 2nd gas (till I've dropped 2nd factory) and keep pumping marines (EDIT: except when I build tech lab ofc). Everything else I pretty much do the same as described in OP. This delays blue flame by about 45 secs but give me enough army size early on to feel comfortable. | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
but 1 problem occured dealing with 3rd fortress surrounded by turrets i tried sent some hellions, but i m not sure if it was such cost effective, as the PF really grined my hellions quickly, and later on he just built SDs to surround his min line.. teching for BCs is an isuue of really late game when u can be sure u'll be with the upper hand of vikings to break this PF with turrets, by then, the expo will be already saturated Anywayz, tnx alot for this build, i had a great game, and i was so happy that my BCs just came in time when i saw him transfer to thors, its nice to go back to use BCs as they seemed the most "easy to counter" unit in the game Oh, and whats ur PVT BO btw? | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
The transition to battlecruisers leaves one huge problem as far as I can see. In TvT, if I see the other terran going for bc's I instantly start making vikings because I know that even if I were down in viking count before, the switch to bc's means the bc player has to cut all viking production. I think this build is better seen as an opener and early mid game strategy where you control the map and harass. But ideally you would want to transition into something else while taking your third. | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
Some guys here asked about "what do i do if i find out we're both doing the same BO", which mean ur scouting hellion just found out there r a bunch of hellions on top of his ramp, or u threw a scan and saw 2 fact producing hellions and 2 port For stoping his hellion haras, theres not much u can do besides be ready to spread ur SCV well and have hellion ready to engage But right after u done ur haras, and he done with his, i think there 2 good options besides trying to "outnumber" him with hellions/vikings 1. rushing for thor Thor is abit easier to get then BC, and its much more cheaper, on the early-mid game he will be hopeless to thors, and will have hard time to transit to maras 2. maras with Cs + vikings + raven. This will make his hellion useless as soon as u wall ur min line well and put some turrets vs drops... u'll probably outnumber him with vikings cuz his ports would be busy with getting banshees, while u can feel free to put reacotrs on urs after u get ur raven that will do great on vikings fights with pdd as soon as u feel ready, u would just run over him and theres nothing he will be able to do vs these maras | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
On February 08 2011 09:41 VanGarde wrote: This build really does seem amazingly strong, but I wonder if it isn't the wrong approach to see this as a whole game strategy. I mean, most of the issues or at least potential weaknesses in this build lies in the lategame, in fact just like the banshee + hellion play mimics baneling mutalisk in the earlier stages of the game, giving huge map control and amazing abilities to win small skirmishes and deny your opponents aggression, so does it mimic baneling muta in the late game in the sense that once turret lines, thors, lots of tanks and planetary fortresses arrive, and the open spaces of the map start to shrink, it is no longer very feasible. The transition to battlecruisers leaves one huge problem as far as I can see. In TvT, if I see the other terran going for bc's I instantly start making vikings because I know that even if I were down in viking count before, the switch to bc's means the bc player has to cut all viking production. I think this build is better seen as an opener and early mid game strategy where you control the map and harass. But ideally you would want to transition into something else while taking your third. Unlike TvZ, when Zerg is just busy on holding T and macro up - in this BO, not only u're macroing up better him with map control = more expos, u're also constant pressure him with hellions drops and sneakes, and banshees haras on naked tanks and buildings. So by the time u will be ready to transfer to BCs to "end the game" he wont have the eco or the porduction to produce enough vkings Another thing - u'll be upgrading ur Air upgrdes all the time, and he probablly wont, and Bc starts with 3 armor, so with fully upgraded it can handle alot of dmg... and a good useage on yamato cannons can eliminate alot of vkings... | ||
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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
Works at the mid masters level very well so far (I want to see how it is in a few weeks when people are more used to it) on ladder and in customs in game after game. Kudos to you sir. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On February 08 2011 07:37 Pokebunny wrote: vs vVvNGry, FireFlash Open Semifinals That Harass was so beautiful... ToT | ||
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Ertu
Greece686 Posts
On February 08 2011 09:14 dohgg wrote: Oh, and whats ur PVT BO btw? This one??  | ||
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loving it
Canada271 Posts
After reading this entire thing... this just blows my mind on well done this is. Thanks! | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
On February 08 2011 10:02 dohgg wrote: Unlike TvZ, when Zerg is just busy on holding T and macro up - in this BO, not only u're macroing up better him with map control = more expos, u're also constant pressure him with hellions drops and sneakes, and banshees haras on naked tanks and buildings. So by the time u will be ready to transfer to BCs to "end the game" he wont have the eco or the porduction to produce enough vkings Another thing - u'll be upgrading ur Air upgrdes all the time, and he probablly wont, and Bc starts with 3 armor, so with fully upgraded it can handle alot of dmg... and a good useage on yamato cannons can eliminate alot of vkings... Actually that is not unlike TvZ that is exactly like a muta centered TvZ midgame where zerg both takes complete map control and pressures constantly with muta threat and thus is free to expand around the map with the mutas threatening a devastating counter attack if terran tries to move out too much. In a way you are correct that if everything goes your way then you will have a sufficient economical advantage to go bc's, but they still feel "forced". It is not the strongest lategame and this has actually been demonstrated in most of the games where this build is eventually beaten. Battlecruiser, viking, hellion will lose to thor, viking, marine and a build that is too centered on requiring a substantial economic lead in the late game is a flawed build. The hellion and air dominance early is the strength of the build but how much damage you end up doing is not ultimately up to you, you will in all likelyhood be ahead in economy but not necessarily by enough to force a very immobile battlecruiser transition. It seems much more natural to go for a more bio centered transition than to force bc's. What is the purpose of bc's in the build? Well, when enough thors are out to make the splash damage challenge your viking/banshee air dominance the bc's are there to take over the role. But the point of the air in the first place was in mobility, and in shutting down tank play. Both of which bc's are really bad at. It seems that a bio transition with that extra economy feels much more natural, marauders rape thors in more ways than battlecruisers could dream of. They are only vulnerable to marines and air, the two things that your hellions and your vikings are shutting down. And most importantly marauders are fast, and they can be used in drops since you already have the aerial infrastructure to get some medivacs out. The banshee's are strong in this build because they force marines, which the hellions rape, and the hellions are good because they force marauders and tanks, which the banshee's rape. Likewise marauders force tanks and marines which is already covered. | ||
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