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First of all nice build!
There seems to be many ways to improve this build. You talked about how you never make turrents as you have ravens for detection, since u have so many excess minerals in the beginning and later stages, you should consider add turrents on the outskirts of your base to defend against drops and buy enough time to get your army back(would've def decreased damage done by ThisIsJimmy's drop).
Also you said you hardly ever get cloak for banshees, i feel this def hurts this build as in the later games investing 200/200 into cloak(easily done, you always ended up with lots of excess resources) and using all that stored energy on your banshees couldve greatly increased your chances. You could've harassed more in your opponents base, you can force scans(preventing your opponents from muling, thus gaining an economic advantage too), and also prevent you from losing a lot of your banshees in engagements.
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Hey iechoic thanks for making this build. It really forces my opponents to turtle while i harass away. If he leaves his base i pick off his forces easily. Blue flame hellions being a light unit are down right scary, melting marines taking pot shots from tanks and surviving. Snipe his raven, snipe his tank, melt his army its just amazing :D
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/135579-1v1-terran-blistering-sands
I thought that blistering sands would be a weak map for this build but it turns out to be the only replay i found acceptable to post! Once i destroyed the rocks i could freely and easily harras both his mains and his naturals mineral lines and rebuild my army easily incase he pushed or i lost alot of units while attacking.
Ill give you more replays when i get more TvTs or better replays.
Edit: vs 2700 diamond
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Just found this thread. I like the harass potentional/map control from this build. After seeing all the replays though, I'm worried that a lot of the build relies on killing off all the marines. If the hellions don't kill enough marines, you gotta leave it up to the banshees and maybe(but hopefully not) vikings.People love marines, and without their rivals(tanks) out of the picture, they'll go all out with them, especially with some good marine micro. It does remind me of zerg. If i were going up against this build I'd almost stim around/away from the hellions while my tanks took out the hellions. I'll be trying this new build out shortly though, I hate standard TvT.
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On February 06 2011 06:06 iEchoic wrote:Nice, executed perfectly, except with some flaws in the lategame vs ClouD IMO. I'm going to add it to the replays in the OP if you don't mind. Edit: I think the following things hurt you in the lategame vs cloud: 1) Not holding the xelnagas. Had you seen him coming across the map, you could have attacked the marines at a better angle while the tanks weren't sieged. You had map control but just forgot to use it. You had to attack down a ramp into sieged tanks with the marines behind them. Ouch. 2) Too many vikings. If you had made ~4 vikings and seen he wasn't contesting your air, and then done more hellions and banshees, you'd be solid. 3) Floating resources - you had 800 minerals when he hit - if you had 5-8 more hellions that would have been good. The opening was really clean though, and you played it really well for only running it 3 times.
Yeah, good point. I'm just afraid when I see a port that he could be hiding vikings, and if you lose air dominance its basically gg.
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iEchoic, or anyone with enough experience, what adjustments would I have to make to my mechanics in order to make such a build work? It worked in a custom game on a gold player my first time trying, but it was kind of rough to adapt to it. I'm 1800 Diamond facing opponents in the 2400 range. What kind of things do I need to be doing to ensure success with this build on ladder? Thanks for a great build!
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I just want to say that I love you iEchoic! This build is awesome, he goes fast banshees his scvs gets rape by hellions if he doesn't ramp up, if he goes too much marines, they get raped by hellions, I think the only thing to counter this build is thors. I want to kudos you ^_^
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Lots of people are trying this build on ladder now, I've even faced some people who have failed so miserable with this they transition mid game back into their familiar Marine/Siege Tanks. Still, I like the style, although extremely unstable to simple Thor/Marine pushes.
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i have yet to try this build but i've had it attempted against me a couple times. The composition and tactics are pretty cool and i'll definitely be incorporating this in future play.
that said, I'd say the biggest problems with the build is that someone going siege/expand will get the expansion/extra gas before you, and therefore the extra vikings/banshees upon which this build relies. If you don't do damage with the drop, your are behind (although i don't have a good sense by how much), and there are many things a tank terran can do to stop this drop from doing too much damage.
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Is there a set amount of damage that your quick blueflame hellion drop is supposed to do? I find myself more often then not simply roasting the entire mineral line all together before my enemy takes out even one of my hellions. Is this because of the quality of my opponents? I find it that when my enemy tries to run away with his workers it ends up doing more damage then helping because they inevitably end up clumping together in chokes near his structures.
Awesome guide by the way, definitely looking forward to seeing this change up the boring cold war reenactment meta going on right now in TvT.
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On February 07 2011 04:15 Antauri wrote:
Is there a set amount of damage that your quick blueflame hellion drop is supposed to do? I find myself more often then not simply roasting the entire mineral line all together before my enemy takes out even one of my hellions. Is this because of the quality of my opponents? I find it that when my enemy tries to run away with his workers it ends up doing more damage then helping because they inevitably end up clumping together in chokes near his structures.
Awesome guide by the way, definitely looking forward to seeing this change up the boring cold war reenactment meta going on right now in TvT.
It's extemely difficult to prevent damage from blue flame hellion drops. I'd say a long as you kill about 2 scvs per hellion dropped you're ahead afterwards. However, i still won games where my drop failed miserably and i only killed like 3 scvs.
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Just for fun I tried this against a few ladder Zerg. While not optimal in terms of unit mix, it went something like this:
Zerg 14 pool/hatch (standard)
My initial hellion harass causes an extra spine crawler
The soon-after blueflame hellion drop is effective at cutting into drone count
Hellions prompt roaches
My starports have now produced a couple banshees that begin to pick away at workers/roaches
Zerg builds hydras for roach/hydra
With air supremacy I make vikings to snipe overseers
Cloaked banshees/hellions/landed vikings clean up
I realize in the OP and subsequent replies that this strategy is not consider well suited for anything but TvT, but if you want to screw with those MU and have a little fun you may surprise yourself (or die horribly).
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On February 07 2011 06:04 DoctorDan wrote:
Just for fun I tried this against a few ladder Zerg. While not optimal in terms of unit mix, it went something like this:
Zerg 14 pool/hatch (standard)
My initial hellion harass causes an extra spine crawler
The soon-after blueflame hellion drop is effective at cutting into drone count
Hellions prompt roaches
My starports have now produced a couple banshees that begin to pick away at workers/roaches
Zerg builds hydras for roach/hydra
With air supremacy I make vikings to snipe overseers
Cloaked banshees/hellions/landed vikings clean up
I realize in the OP and subsequent replies that this strategy is not consider well suited for anything but TvT, but if you want to screw with those MU and have a little fun you may surprise yourself (or die horribly).
Fun to try out but I wouldn't recommended it as mutas would devastate the build as the only AA from this build is vikings, which aren't going to hold up to mass muta.
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Looks great! I used to dislike infantry balls and tanks so much and long for a different unit mix that worked. I've been incorporating more and more air into my games now that I've become a bit more confident (I'm new to this game and didn't play SC1 online).
Anybody tried this stuff vs Protoss? Just out of curiosity since Zerg's been mentioned.
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at first i sucked at this build,,, but after a few practice ladder games, and watching some replay,, im getting the hang of it... im not to much of a "air" guy so its alot different,, but this also kicked ass against zerg too.
good strat... was getting bored of early thors,, this is a nice transition.... all the people i played have raged quit mid game... becasue they are like wtf is this... hellions... i think they feel emabrassed. or something. its funny.
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iEchoic I love you, I have 90% win vs protoss since your helion into 2 port open.
This tvt opening seems hard(that's what she said) but it's very creative and just what I am looking for.
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first of all, i really love this builed (and i also used for some time the iEchoic's TvP builed), but i had problems with banshee openings (and even more the gas before rax ones) coz i have trouble scouting it (and getting a viking first instead a medivak).
thogh i figured that in the late game, you allready have a bounch of starports and factory's, so if the opponent get more vikings then you, just get thors.
anyway, if you do this right, you should have so much money in the late game, that you can just transition in to a diffrent composition.
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Thor and Maurader with a small marine mix is a soft counter to this build if u dont have b/c's in time..
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Do you have any replays where you're up against a 1-base Thor push? I can't see this holding up against that since there's literally not a single unit in your composition that can kill the Thor, especially if I bring SCVs and build turrets.
If not, I'd love to try it against you.
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Does this work in silver league? I was about to drop 4 helions on the enemy terrans base when he came to be base with 10 marines and a sieged tank and owned me !
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EPT
