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On February 04 2011 20:52 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 13:48 Antisocialmunky wrote:
It really seems like Hellions get worse at larger food against marines + tanks which is kinda odd... It's not at all : combat shield is extremely good for marines against blue flame hellions and banshees, since the number of hits needed to kill one goes up from 2 to 3, which is kinda huge considering relatives rates of fire (and the fact that banshees overkill—it seems hellions do not?). It can be reverted but only with a huge upgrade lead which is, let's be honest, a ridiculous thought when meching against bio. Also, attack upgrades scale well on tanks and, as I said earlier, the more marines, the more hellions will die before they can fire, because of the rates of fire and positioning (if marines are in a parallel line rather than in a ball for exemple), so if there is double the marines, you'll need more than double the hellions to kill them. I too feel like this build is a very powerful opener with great harass potential and good ways to slow an incoming attack or weaken it (by forcing lots of turrets in base or leaving units), but that it's not game ending. The transition to BCs is potent but it's also slow and the mobility goes from excellent to mediocre at best. Although it makes sense composition-wise, out-expanding and setting up a contain seems safer to me (I wouldn't try busting a terran I forced to turtle).
Good point on the shields
Its very true that this doesn't end the game but puts you in a good position to win the game. You don't have the brute force to engage and kill him. Just look at all the waves of hellions/air that were spent
@valheru - I'm not, Ghost and Banshee actually synergize surprisingly well after 2 base. I did this in TvP with EMP + cloaked banshee harass while massing M&M. Basically constantly force Obs from his robo (this is off a FE so you have 2 CCs to scan around your ghosts with) so he has to go Templar/uber Cannon to deal with it. Problem is that it took way too much control.
I think nukes have good potential once you get to two base. The opponent cannot challenge your air so 3 ports will be enough and he will have to turtle up. Scans are used on banshees and since nuke AOE out ranges tanks, you'd be hard pressed to take them out without moving out other parts of your army. If you force this, you can defeat that part of his army because it will be advancing out of siege range. Turrets have a hard time dodging nukes so you lose more and more passive detection so the banshees can go to town. You aren't building continuous ghosts so the 225 gas/min is deceiving.
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I am still curious how u deal with having almost no units for 7-13 minutes. In the game vs Thisisjimmy for example, he culda a moved anywhere from the 7-9 minute mark and completely destroyed you. Also is posting a replay where your opponent only has 1 tank and 2 vikings at the 14 minute mark worthy of calling this a working build order?
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On February 04 2011 21:51 Badfatpanda wrote:
Someone posted a question regarding to the viability of this build in faring with a natural PF and turrets...You have forced him to create a PF at his natural AND turrets. Congrats if you don't fuck this lead up its gg for him, simply get a 3rd and laugh as he turtles.
Well I was talking about getting a third base with PF and turrets, obviously, which would make it impregnable (only with a fuckload of banshees, or sacrifice a lot of hellions to evaporate the minline, while it's very important to this build to keep your units alive). It's a bit different from a PF at the natural, which would be absurd (MULEs are way too important to combat the economical damage of the harass).
About the ThisIsJimmy game, I'd say it depends. Had the hellions from the drop survived, they would have made Echoic's ramp very hard to break because of the funneling effect, provided you don't have scans available (I think it's particularly important to force them using cloak if you researched it). Also, if he left his base and another drop came, he would have ran the risk to lose all of his scvs. In such a position, sacrificing most of his to survive wouldn't have hurt Echoic as much.
But those aspects are quite on the edge really, as they depend on the amount of threat you send to your opponent. If he can't scout, how will he know if he can kill you or will end up trading blows? How can he be sure he can afford the risk of a backstab while moving out?
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im kind of curious how you survive with only 2 marines vs any kind of marine all in builds?
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Considering that hellions are devastating against large number of workers, i'd say that you should be fine if you also pull all your scvs against him.
On a smaller map (hello, steppes) you'll probably not have the hellion yet and might be forced to stall until it gets out. But then again, the OP specifically adviced against this build on steppes.
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Yup. I got 4 rax'd on metal close positions (mainly marines stim, reinforced with marauders) and I would have held it had I put my hellions on hold at the ramp, with a drop coming to his base during the attack. Not that it's not possible to attack earlier, of course, and pulling all scvs for an all-inier all-in could make it tricky to defend at the ramp.
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Im interested in your response to reapers early game(more then one). will prb do some testing but does that just outright kill this build?
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Well microd hellions kill reapers one on one and hellions also build faster. I'm not so sure about the timings but assuming you have hellions by the time the reapers come you should be fine (as long as you micro). Also, going mass reaper will seriously delay his tech so you'll probably clean house with the first banshee.
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Thanks for the good writeup. I had fun reading it and I can't wait to get home and watch the reps  Keep being creative, Mr. Echoic.
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Note: if you've having problems, post replays. I'll try to watch them (or other people in the thread can as well) and point out how to fix them. Most people that have posted so far in high masters have said the build is working very well, and most of the complaints so far are coming from lower levels, which makes me think there's some mechanical errors. As I said in the OP, the build will take some time to execute correctly - it's a very tricky mechanical build.
On February 05 2011 01:40 QQmonster wrote:
im kind of curious how you survive with only 2 marines vs any kind of marine all in builds?
This build really hard-counters any marine allins. You just spread your hellions at the top and hold them and the ramp funnels all incoming marines, making splash incredibly strong. Any allins before you have hellions are would be worthless because they wouldn't have any more marines by time they get to your base.
On February 05 2011 02:23 Johnranger-123 wrote:
Im interested in your response to reapers early game(more then one). will prb do some testing but does that just outright kill this build?
Hellions do pretty well vs reapers if you hit them, and run to repair. You can also always put 3-4 scvs on autorepair following it and burn reapers down. Of course, once you get preigniter, reapers just die stupid-fast. Like most of the responses, there's a very clean response, but it takes some micro.
On February 04 2011 22:22 Lipski wrote:
ok, i've been thinking, and has this build been tested against mass marine/hellion?
i mean, marines with stim melt all terran air until BCs. you are relying on hellion to stop marines. what happens when your hellion count is matched? mind that marine/hellion requires no gas, so either your opponent will have more units, or better upgrades, or more expansions, or turrets. your map control is limited since he is also mobile as hell, and your expensive vikings are useless.
harras too can be dealt with the mobility of marine/hellion.
and i dont see a safe way to get a sufficient number of BCs fast enough, and marines can deal with BCs when there is upgrade advantage.
shouldn't be to hard to spot this build, since it is kinda unique, and then switch to marine/hellion.
I've never ran into marine/hellion, but you make it sound easier than it really would be. Before you could even try to compete with my hellion count you'd need to get preigniter, throw down more factories (assuming you scouted it and not blind countered), and then try to come close to my hellion count. And then during that entire time you'd be incredibly vulnerable to blue flame drops and head-on attacks, while I have more hellions and preigniter. Also you have no air control so I could get cloak and constantly harass and kill your army as soon as it left.
On February 04 2011 20:52 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 13:48 Antisocialmunky wrote:
It really seems like Hellions get worse at larger food against marines + tanks which is kinda odd... It's not at all : combat shield is extremely good for marines against blue flame hellions and banshees, since the number of hits needed to kill one goes up from 2 to 3,
Keep in mind that stim reduces HP from 55 to 45, returning them into two-shot territory from hellions - and unstimmed marines just aren't that scary.
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I still don't see how this build holds up against a ref first cloak banshee rush, 2 marines will barely even distract me from killing all your scvs. If you build a viking before medivac it might only do minor damage but it will really delay your drop and I would definitely be prepared when the drop does eventually come.
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Cloaked banshees are a non issue. Counter drop, build viking and ravens. Collect win.
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Thanks for the ignorant response, I'm sure thats what the other 100 terrans who I beat with cloaked banshee openings thought too.
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I've gone against ref first banshees and it's an easy win but only if you handle it right. You can't do ref first banshee and defend vs 4 blue flame hellions dropped in your base. Similarly I can't kill the banshees immediately but I can run my workers until Viking and raven come out. I will lose mining time but I will kill at very least 10 scvs (usually more). You can't run from the blue flame.
If you pull workers in time you will lose only mining time while your opponent loses scvs, a banshee, and the usefulness of cloak. If you sit and let all your workers die you will lose.
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On February 05 2011 04:47 statikg wrote:
I still don't see how this build holds up against a ref first cloak banshee rush, 2 marines will barely even distract me from killing all your scvs. If you build a viking before medivac it might only do minor damage but it will really delay your drop and I would definitely be prepared when the drop does eventually come.
Based on the OP, it sounds as if it's assumed that an early cloak banshee will get some number of SCV kills (or cost you mining time), but that blue flame hellions are likely to do more damage in less time, and that the viking and raven will be able to clean up when they pop, which should be some time before too many of your SCV's are toast:
"Banshee opening
- Hide Spoiler -
Tells: bunker at front, no tanks or marauders on subsequent pokes up ramp
Your starports should open 1raven1viking after your intitial medivac (swap with factory once preigniter is done). Your hellion drop will likely do huge damage, and dropping fast is a high priority. If the banshee arrives before your viking/raven pop, run your scvs away. You will do much more damage with your hellions than he will with his banshees."
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On February 05 2011 05:10 statikg wrote:
Thanks for the ignorant response, I'm sure thats what the other 100 terrans who I beat with cloaked banshee openings thought too.
You think you can kill more scv's with cloaked banshees than with 4x blue flame hellions? Not to mention that when all is said and done this build has enough gas for a raven and atleast 1 viking.
And I doubt you beat 100 other terrans using this TvT build. You're just a stupid troll. Post a rep of you failing against a friend who opens ref first cloaked banshees, or of you executing ref first cloaked banshees against this and winning first.
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Yeah i'm the troll 18 post guy, I just see a problem with the build that your bandwagoning and I want to stress test it, its not a personal attack...obviously in a vacuum blue flame hellions kill more scvs *roll eyes*. I guess we will just have to see on the ladder.
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please dont look over MMM.. im tellling u marines marauders + medivacs are retarded strong vs that.
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Thanks IEchoic, loved your TvP build and I thouroughly enjoy a build like this Tvt. I've also hated using tanks in TvT also, this will do just nicely. Added!
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On February 05 2011 03:34 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 20:52 Alaric wrote:On February 04 2011 13:48 Antisocialmunky wrote:
It really seems like Hellions get worse at larger food against marines + tanks which is kinda odd... It's not at all : combat shield is extremely good for marines against blue flame hellions and banshees, since the number of hits needed to kill one goes up from 2 to 3, Keep in mind that stim reduces HP from 55 to 45, returning them into two-shot territory from hellions - and unstimmed marines just aren't that scary.
That is true I suppose.
I'm more curious what you think about ghosts with this?
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EPT
