EPTFast thor is easily stopped, but not easily scoutable. I believe im gay
[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 10
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nYquench
United States29 Posts
Fast thor is easily stopped, but not easily scoutable. I believe im gay | ||
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mGMUSE
Singapore112 Posts
On February 04 2011 12:12 nYquench wrote: Ok, so after trying this build out regularly for the past few days. I have come to the conclusion that this will become the new standard. Now bear in mind that I am a 3.4k masters. Fast thor is easily stopped, but not easily scoutable. I believe im gay same thinking, havent encountered fast thor though. what i like about it is it requires you to actively think throughout the game because it's a pretty advanced strat and you have to keep doing stuff like picking off marines, scvs, and dont blindly use your banshees on marines, etc. ace build, though i really dont think your tvp build is that great  been winning every tvt at 3k masters | ||
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
technically 1 banshee will beat 3 marines and it costs just as much minerals as marines and normally a base keeps giving you gas long after its minerals run out, letting you get more banshees as the game goes on what is the enemy gonna spend his gas on? tanks to fight banshees? thors would be the best solution but you can magic box your banshee to deal with that and your enemy cant really counter with reactor vikings because you can do it better than he can since you got to starport faster, and your hellions get rid of his marines and cuz hes going viking he has less tanks to stop the hellions from rolling over the marines and your enemy cant turret up everywhere because 10 banshees will 2shot a turret and you can pick those off easily | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On February 04 2011 13:08 mGMUSE wrote: ace build, though i really dont think your tvp build is that great It is less powerful now that most protoss FE or just know better how to infer information from pokes, but at the time of its creation the trend was more in favor of VR openings, 4 gates and other aggressive builds, which let P very vulnerable to the annihilation of his whole mineral lin, or enough damage to give a huge lead to the terran. Its main attack (~15 stim marines, 4-6 banshees, possibly surviving medivac and hellions) doesn't net you a win as much, but it's still very powerful and allow for a safe expansion while you're going out fighting. The drop generally compensate for how late it is compared to most protoss FEs. Anyway, I'm off topic so I'll stop here. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:20 Pokebunny wrote: okay well now for my defense :< http://replayfu.com/r/5QzWp http://replayfu.com/r/x1f6Nc I just watched these. Game #2 was somewhat of a weird and messy game so I'll ignore that. Game 1 was really good. It illustrates how you cannot counter a tank army in the field all that well with this and the limitations of mass hellion. It really seems like Hellions get worse at larger food against marines + tanks which is kinda odd... I'm wondering if you could double expand faster. Its nearly impossible to leave your base for the first 10-15 minutes against this build. I guess you could take this opportunity to get a third as fast as you can for the gas and dedicate 1 port for BCs. Armor upgrades also seem incredibly needed later on since marines just start murdering everything... That is a lot of gas. Seems incredibly strong early game and taking the initiative but it needs hammering down with something to transition to... BCs are obvious but they are super slow and don't seem to work that great on big maps... Part of me actually thinks nukes due to the amount of forced scans. You can force the tanks to unsiege, dive in with the hellions, and then clean up the tanks with banshees. Or just drop nukes into his expos after forcing a ton of scans on banshees. Nuke goes down, turrets burn down, banshees LOL over everything else. Just need an acad, cloak, and 1 tech lab rax for minimal investment. Tanks in your natural? Red dot them away. A sentry tower actually seems key if you are playing against this too now that I think about it. | ||
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
On February 04 2011 13:48 Antisocialmunky wrote: I just watched these. Game #2 was somewhat of a weird and messy game so I'll ignore that. Game 1 was really good. It illustrates how you cannot counter a tank army in the field all that well with this and the limitations of mass hellion. It really seems like Hellions get worse at larger food against marines + tanks which is kinda odd... I'm wondering if you could double expand faster. Its nearly impossible to leave your base for the first 10-15 minutes against this build. I guess you could take this opportunity to get a third as fast as you can for the gas and dedicate 1 port for BCs. Armor upgrades also seem incredibly needed later on since marines just start murdering everything... That is a lot of gas. Seems incredibly strong early game and taking the initiative but it needs hammering down with something to transition to... BCs are obvious but they are super slow and don't seem to work that great on big maps... Part of me actually thinks nukes due to the amount of forced scans. You can force the tanks to unsiege, dive in with the hellions, and then clean up the tanks with banshees. Or just drop nukes into his expos after forcing a ton of scans on banshees. Nuke goes down, turrets burn down, banshees LOL over everything else. Just need an acad, cloak, and 1 tech lab rax for minimal investment. Tanks in your natural? Red dot them away. A sentry tower actually seems key if you are playing against this too now that I think about it. I would be a little leery of using nukes just for the gas costs associated but I can see the point of them (Don't fight on creep don't fight on nuke sites). But the main thing I drew away from the above post was the sensor towers. This build plays like zerg right (well as much as terran can) and zerg has ovies and creep and lings to spread around the map. Terran has has mostly scans (also known as not-mules) for their scouting purposes (Specific to them I mean like toss has obs and zerg seers), so hellions substitute for lings to some extent ovies and sensor towers substitue fro creep. ,The problems with using sensor towers are cost, limited range (well compared to creep). lack of direct vision you only get a dot and they can be seen by everyone. But since this build is about map control and air dominace I think the towers would be worth their cost provided you actually kept them alive. | ||
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Matalon
Israel9 Posts
On February 04 2011 09:46 Xanczor wrote: Hey guys, i tried this build on ladder today, it was vs the most standard marine tank viking, but he just pushed nice and slow (close meta spawns) and set up massive amounts of turrets. The guide says act like ling/bling/muta where hellions = blings/lings and banshees = mutas but banshees dont do shit against turrets. So i kill all the marines then i move in with banshees....die. How would you react to this kind of play using this build? Replay http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134578-1v1-terran-metalopolis Hey, a very similar situation happened to me in my first game trying this, and on close positions meta too! Here is my replay: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-186269.jpg) I haven't watched your replay yet but maybe mine can help you. My opponent did a style similar to what you're describing - A slow push with mass turrents and tanks. I don't wanna spoil the outcome because i think it was a fun game, I'll just say I messed up quite a bit, should have made medivac first, as well as some general micro and macro errors. Still it worked really well for me and proved to be a really fun and effective approach to TvT. Thank you iEchoic! | ||
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
that proves it, and to top it all off he was abusing the bunker glitch on lt...(and he wasn't the real slayersboxer) | ||
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Praxis1452
41 Posts
I like the idea of a tank line towards the later game because of how effective tanks are against masses of units. I think hellions tend to lose their value in larger engagements because they simply die too fast. Perhaps open with this, and as soon as you're on a third base, switch to tank production and contain him with constant drops, and sniping their units as soon as they get out of position. Once you can contain with your own tanks + sensor tower you have a good chance. You still have to maintain air superiority but I feel like this build is safer taking earlier expansions so you should be ahead resource wise. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
If i get tank contained while playing a banshee opening i'm usually able to crawl my way back into the game by slowly picking away the tank with the banshees. Now if you use iEchoics build, you can do the same and also do a hellion drop or two in the meantime so you keep your opponents eco down. The most important thing is to never lose a banshee and always repair them. Also, killing turrets can be easily done with banshees without losing them with a little micro. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Both times I went a regular 1-1-1 opening, got some tanks but quickly switched to mass bio/viking and pressured heavily, ended up winning quite easily. I think both went with too many banshees and cannot compete with a reactored starport or two that are constantly churning out vikings. | ||
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FrostyTreats
United States355 Posts
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Meldon
Greece128 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On February 04 2011 13:48 Antisocialmunky wrote: It really seems like Hellions get worse at larger food against marines + tanks which is kinda odd... It's not at all : combat shield is extremely good for marines against blue flame hellions and banshees, since the number of hits needed to kill one goes up from 2 to 3, which is kinda huge considering relatives rates of fire (and the fact that banshees overkill—it seems hellions do not?). It can be reverted but only with a huge upgrade lead which is, let's be honest, a ridiculous thought when meching against bio. Also, attack upgrades scale well on tanks and, as I said earlier, the more marines, the more hellions will die before they can fire, because of the rates of fire and positioning (if marines are in a parallel line rather than in a ball for exemple), so if there is double the marines, you'll need more than double the hellions to kill them. I too feel like this build is a very powerful opener with great harass potential and good ways to slow an incoming attack or weaken it (by forcing lots of turrets in base or leaving units), but that it's not game ending. The transition to BCs is potent but it's also slow and the mobility goes from excellent to mediocre at best. Although it makes sense composition-wise, out-expanding and setting up a contain seems safer to me (I wouldn't try busting a terran I forced to turtle). FrostyTreats, MM compositions can be handled without so much trouble if you engage far from anything the marauders could mop out and retreat your hellions the moment the marines are dead. However it's true it's very mobile and would force one to split vikings for air control (and drop spotting) so I won't go theorycrafting about this, I guess we'll see when we'll have replays. About tanks/vikings, it's more gas expensive than viking/banshees, so I don't know what to think... since you get 2 starports you can take air superiority, albeit you'll lack banshees at the beginning. Then the important thing will be to keep your banshees alive if he tries to compete, as you'll have less room to produce them due to needed viking production. Bagi, could you give the replays ? From what you say, it seems that against bio/vikings (especially marauders/vikings) keeping balance of viking/banshee production is crucial, as too many vikings and you won't have the banshee fleet to clean up the ground army, too few and you'll lose the air battle is your opponent commits to it. Feels like it's about constantly adjusting the ratio. | ||
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valheru
Australia966 Posts
On February 04 2011 18:52 FrostyTreats wrote: I think you forgot to factor in MMM bro.. tanks arent too bad vs hellions either along with turrets...dont rly see how this can be viable in high level play... your not looking at it from a proper angle...also after you getting scouted 2x fact 2x starport the opp doesn't have to make bio.. he can just go tank viking.. No he can't go tank viking marine for the win. As you are going sky mech you therefore have uncontested air dominance unless you have a major screw up like moving over thors+turrets+marines. Unless he goes 2 reactor starport he won't be able to win back air dominance from you (#base dependant). Even if he does you should have built a raven and have PDD. In short his vikings are basically a non-factor PDD means they do nothing and your vikings (which you have more of and better upgraded) will kill his, the sky is yours and it will remain yours unless he does something ''really fucking bad'' (Day[9] I believe) like mass starport. Your cloaked banshees can move in and snipe the tanks after forcing scans, and then the hellions clean up the marines. (If he unsieges his tanks you can move in with your hellions. tanks really have to be sieged to effectively deal with the hellions.) He can deal with this in 3 ways. 1) Have his own raven. It can be easily sniped by your vikings. 2) Built turrets along the attack path, and be extremely damn careful about his units. Which takes an age and you can tech to BCs in that time (map/spawn dependant) or just go and harass the shit out of him. 3) Go a different mix. Another topic all together. EDIT: just realised I repeated my self on 1 sentance | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
3 Thors are enough to ensure he wins the viking battle even if i have three times the amount, because even if Thors don't kill Vikings especielly fast they do kill them with 3 or 4 salvos (depending on upgrades) and deal massive splash to my whole viking ball (and before you say something like don't clump, every player tries to kite your vikings into his Thors. Sooner or later that will happen, or you continously accept that your BCs get shot at by his vikings). I'm curious how you'd deal with that composition in the late game? (the game reached this stage because after my first drop he turtled up hardcore. Turrets all around and mine out 2 base, something the build cannot kill in an attack so i need to outexpand him) | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
-Map Control-Why do Terran love to bitch about zerg sling/bling/muta so much? The vision creep gives along with the mobility of their army make it easy to counterattack with mutas or a sling run-by the second you move out of your base. Unless you have turrets covering every square inch of surface area on both of your bases, chances are somethings going to die and you're left with a choice: do I just push or go back and try to defend. Usually the second option lets Z get a 3rd or 4th up, while continuing to drone and congrats, you've lost the game. In response to a push from T what do we see zerg do? Wait until he sees a vulnerability with tanks then picks them off before the rines come back. You need to be proactive with this build. I cannot stress that enough, if you are not constantly finding some whole somewhere even if it means he'll just build more turrets you are forcing him to do something other than expand his army size or just going to fucking kill you. Honestly, constant harass wins games in the long term. Someone posted a question regarding to the viability of this build in faring with a natural PF and turrets...You have forced him to create a PF at his natural AND turrets. Congrats if you don't fuck this lead up its gg for him, simply get a 3rd and laugh as he turtles. Against a tank/rine slow push: You'll see it coming, if you don't that is why you have lost, hellions are fast, use them to get control of the towers, vikings are great scouts, utilize them. After you've seen them coming, if he truly has 8 billion turrets around his base and you can't get to a mineral line, just wait for any opportunity to arise in his push, either while he's building turrets or un-sieging his tank line and attack the whole. If you have been constantly harassing and out expanding him because of it, there should not be too many units in his comp that it makes it 100% invulnerable 100% of the time, so find that 2% with your dominance of map control. Say he has turrets but no siege tank at his nat...blue flame hellions ftw! Even if he doesn't drop back, he will be flustered, and that helps you directly...along with the economic damage of course. Against a 7min 2-3 tank/rine push: Ok, while controlling the watchtowers with hellions/even putting a hellion at his nat is wise*** you will see this push coming. Now to react, if you are on your way to drop his main, great, continue with your plan, if he doesn't retreat back, you should have 2 banshees out very soon and at least 2 more hellions at your base. Prod with your hellions, try to kill as many rines as you can without the tanks getting too many hits in. Position the banshees to flank from your nat once they're up. As soon as he gets into range pick off 1 or both of his tanks and use the remainder of your hellions to roast the rest of his forces. So the banshees didn't pick off the tank before dying? Pull scvs. Really. While he was pushing you were roasting his main with hellions remember? How many did you kill while his entire attacking force was en route to kill you? Surely more than you would lose by pulling 10 or so to defend his push. In playing this build, there will be times where you doubt the build because "omfg he killed 6 of my scvs herp derp", but with your hellion/banshee combo you should nearly always have the upper hand, abuse the mobility of your units. Sorry, that was long but necessary imo, to recap, abuse your map control and mobility. Zerg do, it seems to work pretty damn well for them. And ffs people, stop trying to find wholes in this build unless you've tested it out on ladder, pessimists aren't needed. | ||
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Lipski
Poland373 Posts
i mean, marines with stim melt all terran air until BCs. you are relying on hellion to stop marines. what happens when your hellion count is matched? mind that marine/hellion requires no gas, so either your opponent will have more units, or better upgrades, or more expansions, or turrets. your map control is limited since he is also mobile as hell, and your expensive vikings are useless. harras too can be dealt with the mobility of marine/hellion. and i dont see a safe way to get a sufficient number of BCs fast enough, and marines can deal with BCs when there is upgrade advantage. shouldn't be to hard to spot this build, since it is kinda unique, and then switch to marine/hellion. | ||
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