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On February 03 2011 16:24 ThisIsJimmy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 09:12 Antisocialmunky wrote:On February 02 2011 09:11 iEchoic wrote:On February 02 2011 09:09 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Random question:
What happens if you play against this strategy with this strategy? Imagine a nuclear holocaust where all people on both sides die, and you have to continually rebuild from scratch. Basically that. It's the only scenario where having more hellions is better than more vikings because hellions kill other hellions better than banshees do, and even if you have banshees you're not going to stop hellions from killing all your SCVs. Although you can go for air control and do banshees. You basically have to decide to control one or the other and see how it pans out. I've only played against it once or twice (vs teammates) so I don't know for sure. This sounds like Broodwar ZvZ. What have you done? PS. Also, why does ThisIsJimmy appear so often on the losing side of replays? I feel bad for him sometimes. :-\ Haha I must defend myself. That loss was the 1st time I had seen the build. It is actually pretty good and you can definitely make it work. I'm not sure if it is really strong or weak against any build but the advantage of it is that you can do a lot of worker harass throughout the game with very little units. I play a lot of ladder and lose a lot which is why you see me losing so much lol. Here is another replay of me NOT losing against this build even when getting behind early... ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-186039.jpg)
Thanks for the rep. I forgot to ask iEchoic for some failure reps. 
That was fairly well played. I guess if I see a barracks scout, I know its a factory/port opening .
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France45622 Posts
On February 03 2011 22:43 Damador wrote:
Hello guys,
I tested it yesturday and i found a big problem (cloacked banshees) the raven comes to late and you have to wait the first viking to kill it (because we just have two marines) and i think that give an opponent's window for like 30 secondes (especially on air clospos like LT, scrap, metalo) to kill all your csv... I tested it like 10 times and lost against all the banshees opening... What about that?
Blue flame hellions kill scvs far faster than banshees, and in case of a banshee rush your opponent will have nothing but marines, who (whom?) get roasted too. iEchoic advovcated that in case of a banshee rush, you should make your scvs run around to prevent the banshee from killing a lot of them. You won't be mining, but neither will your opponent confronted to your blue flame drop, and he's likely to lose more scvs (possibly up to far more scvs).
You'll also have more tech and army diversity after that.
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Not really i made that banshees build and he had like 8-9 marines spread and a tank.
Gonna test it against this evening.
On February 03 2011 23:36 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 22:43 Damador wrote:
Hello guys,
I tested it yesturday and i found a big problem (cloacked banshees) the raven comes to late and you have to wait the first viking to kill it (because we just have two marines) and i think that give an opponent's window for like 30 secondes (especially on air clospos like LT, scrap, metalo) to kill all your csv... I tested it like 10 times and lost against all the banshees opening... What about that? Blue flame hellions kill scvs far faster than banshees, and in case of a banshee rush your opponent will have nothing but marines, who (whom?) get roasted too. iEchoic advovcated that in case of a banshee rush, you should make your scvs run around to prevent the banshee from killing a lot of them. You won't be mining, but neither will your opponent confronted to your blue flame drop, and he's likely to lose more scvs (possibly up to far more scvs). You'll also have more tech and army diversity after that.
What's your level btw?
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From a few tests, it seems like, although an uncommon occurrence, a Marauder-heavy one-base timing push that hits before the starports are producing is also very hard to stop with this build, since you will basically only have Hellions to defend with when it hits before the first couple of banshees are out.
If you use the Hellions to counterattack, it could evolve into an elimination race - however, it's definitely not a waste to wall in vs. this build if you spot it, and Hellions will have a hard time breaking a wall-in since buildings are armored.
I'm not a masters player though, so perhaps someone more adept at the game than me should test this out.
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Hey I was wondering iechoic if it's really necessary that you build a tech lab on the rax. The lack of early marines is really the only vulnerability. My blueflame is later but it doesn't seem to me that having blueflame 30s earlier is that necessary because it's not some perfect timing attack, but rather just abusing the opportunity should it arise before your medevac comes out.
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The immense infrastructure cost (2 fax, 2 port) doesn't allow for additional marines. It's tightly packed as it is and already forces you to do a supply drop for continous production. This means if you want marines you will either a) have to do a traditional 1/1/1 blue flame drop build or b) have less hellions but more marines. But imo it's not very useful to get a second factory early if you don't use it.
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France45622 Posts
On February 04 2011 00:17 Damador wrote:
What's your level btw?
I don't think I'd be able to tell you precisely, 1800 diamond but since I haven't played that much since december I've quite a bonus pool and I'm currently pitted against 2.4-2.7k opponents. I'm using intensive builds (like this one or TvZ marines/ravens) to force improvements but I'm not able to play them well yet.
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On February 03 2011 23:36 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 22:43 Damador wrote:
Hello guys,
I tested it yesturday and i found a big problem (cloacked banshees) the raven comes to late and you have to wait the first viking to kill it (because we just have two marines) and i think that give an opponent's window for like 30 secondes (especially on air clospos like LT, scrap, metalo) to kill all your csv... I tested it like 10 times and lost against all the banshees opening... What about that? Blue flame hellions kill scvs far faster than banshees, and in case of a banshee rush your opponent will have nothing but marines, who (whom?) get roasted too. iEchoic advovcated that in case of a banshee rush, you should make your scvs run around to prevent the banshee from killing a lot of them. You won't be mining, but neither will your opponent confronted to your blue flame drop, and he's likely to lose more scvs (possibly up to far more scvs). You'll also have more tech and army diversity after that.
What happens if he has supply depot + Bunker wall? Go for the Hellion Drop?
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On February 04 2011 00:46 Lurk wrote:
The immense infrastructure cost (2 fax, 2 port) doesn't allow for additional marines. It's tightly packed as it is and already forces you to do a supply drop for continous production. This means if you want marines you will either a) have to do a traditional 1/1/1 blue flame drop build or b) have less hellions but more marines. But imo it's not very useful to get a second factory early if you don't use it.
I almost feel like skipping the 2nd fact and getting a reactor rax and making marines will be more "solid" and less gimmicky. After infernal pre-igniter finishes you can swap the fact and rax and research combat shield, pump some marauders, or even float the rax for scouting/spotter and use the tech lab for a starport or another factory. You could even try switching the reactor on your reactor port with the factory. Also perhaps you could just expand, expansions are nice.
I don't like the idea of a 1/2/2 infrastructure (technically 0/2/2). You could do something like that with vultures/mines/wraiths in BW, but it's so incredibly allin. This seems no different.
That being said, the playstyle is pretty cool, with a more macro opener it'd be cool to see.
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tried it. this build > 2rax. nice.
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2 rax in TvT? WHAT THE FUCK LAUL!
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On February 04 2011 00:55 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote:
I almost feel like skipping the 2nd fact and getting a reactor rax and making marines will be more "solid" and less gimmicky. After infernal pre-igniter finishes you can swap the fact and rax and research combat shield, pump some marauders, or even float the rax for scouting/spotter and use the tech lab for a starport or another factory. You could even try switching the reactor on your reactor port with the factory. Also perhaps you could just expand, expansions are nice.
I don't like the idea of a 1/2/2 infrastructure (technically 0/2/2). You could do something like that with vultures/mines/wraiths in BW, but it's so incredibly allin. This seems no different.
That being said, the playstyle is pretty cool, with a more macro opener it'd be cool to see.
Getting infantry upgrades and marauders will break the build as you will lack the gas for sufficient air units. The whole point of the build is that you put every single droplet of gas into air units, allowing you uncontested air superiority. As soon as you start spending gas for something else, you allow your opponent an opportunity to outproduce you on vikings.
I know i feels pretty gimmicky and unstable, but it's actually not. Hellions seem so fragile but they are actually quite robust (compared to say, marines).
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On February 04 2011 00:46 Lurk wrote:
The immense infrastructure cost (2 fax, 2 port) doesn't allow for additional marines. It's tightly packed as it is and already forces you to do a supply drop for continous production. This means if you want marines you will either a) have to do a traditional 1/1/1 blue flame drop build or b) have less hellions but more marines. But imo it's not very useful to get a second factory early if you don't use it.
I do use the supply drop, but I just delay my 2nd port by a small amount and still get marines. I don't constantly get them, but I like to fill a bunker atleast.
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It seems like this build relies on your opponent not handling the harass well. It also seems like it would be better to use your advantage to transition to units that don't suck. Closing a game out with BCs is actually giving your crippled opponent a chance to get back into the game. I think a better transition would be to swap your attachments and start going for a standard tank with viking while you've got them building tons of marines. I think any build that requires you to do severe gimmicky economic damage relies more on your opponents skill level and not your own or even the strength of the build.
Honestly you could have just called this a tvt replay pack and given no explanation and told everyone to enjoy
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I hate your TvP build it's so annoying, but I'm still stealing this next time i TvT. This looks like something fun to do like a stove or something.
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On February 04 2011 01:43 Gecko wrote:
I hate your TvP build it's so annoying, but I'm still stealing this next time i TvT. This looks like something fun to do like a stove or something.
Why are you comparing it to the Stove?
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I've been using a similar build for some times (only 1 reactored fac but 1 rax aswell) and it works quite good.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
I noticed that you missed Ravens off the list of Terran units that can shoot air!
How do you think this build would hold up vs a Raven/Marine opening? The seeker missile is effective against stacked air units in combination with PDD and Auto turrets could also be used in the mineral line to block the hellion harrass.
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On February 04 2011 02:52 iHirO wrote:
I noticed that you missed Ravens off the list of Terran units that can shoot air!
How do you think this build would hold up vs a Raven/Marine opening? The seeker missile is effective against stacked air units in combination with PDD and Auto turrets could also be used in the mineral line to block the hellion harrass.
Seeker missile is only very effective if the opponent does not micro against it. Also keep in mind that you'll have air superiority with this build and will be able to shoot down ravens very quickly. I will certainly not let a raven come in range for a seeker missile on my air units (viking range = 10, seeker missile range = 6). And if he only has marines as ground force, your blue flame hellions will completely rape him.
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I don't usually post replays of losses because they don't demonstrate anything except me playing badly. Obviously I don't win 100% of my games, and I lose games. However, if a build is solid, you should only be losing because you play badly, not because your build gets 'countered'. My build has never gotten countered, but there are many games where I micro or macro badly or make bad decisions and lose (like in the game vs ThisIsJimmy). I would never post a build where there was a hard counter to it that I'm aware of. ThisIsJimmy is a good player though, and unfortunately he showed up in my replays because he's one of the few people who plays pure bio, not because there's a conspiracy against him :O
That said, some people are still thinking it's gimmicky because there's a hellion drop in it. The hellion drop is a tactic in the build, but it's not a core strategy. The build focuses more around the hellion/air composition, and the ability to drop is a very powerful additional component. You can botch the drop and still win games quite easily.
Use the build, and use it well, and you'll see that the composition isn't something you use as a novelty factor, it's actually pretty strong.
For the people who posted and said you're enjoying it, glad it works.
Rather it's working or not, please post reps!
Anyway I just woke up and I have to run, I'll answer questions later.
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EPT
