EPTCould you please add a replay of you facing some kind of 3 rax marauder heavy push?
[G] iEchoic's 2fact2port TvT - Page 9
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ScrubS
Netherlands436 Posts
Could you please add a replay of you facing some kind of 3 rax marauder heavy push? | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On February 03 2011 23:32 Antisocialmunky wrote: Thanks for the rep. I forgot to ask iEchoic for some failure reps.  That was fairly well played. I guess if I see a barracks scout, I know its a factory/port opening .okay well now for my defense :< http://replayfu.com/r/5QzWp http://replayfu.com/r/x1f6Nc | ||
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Mwentworth56
146 Posts
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
Ill post some reps asap. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 04 2011 02:58 iEchoic wrote: I don't usually post replays of losses because they don't demonstrate anything except me playing badly. Obviously I don't win 100% of my games, and I lose games. However, if a build is solid, you should only be losing because you play badly, not because your build gets 'countered'. My build has never gotten countered, but there are many games where I micro or macro badly or make bad decisions and lose (like in the game vs ThisIsJimmy). I would never post a build where there was a hard counter to it that I'm aware of. ThisIsJimmy is a good player though, and unfortunately he showed up in my replays because he's one of the few people who plays pure bio, not because there's a conspiracy against him :O That said, some people are still thinking it's gimmicky because there's a hellion drop in it. The hellion drop is a tactic in the build, but it's not a core strategy. The build focuses more around the hellion/air composition, and the ability to drop is a very powerful additional component. You can botch the drop and still win games quite easily. Use the build, and use it well, and you'll see that the composition isn't something you use as a novelty factor, it's actually pretty strong. For the people who posted and said you're enjoying it, glad it works. Rather it's working or not, please post reps! Anyway I just woke up and I have to run, I'll answer questions later. Agreed, that's like calling the Reaver drop gimmicky. Both your published builds have a drop that's hard to defend even if you know its coming. Well, I'd like to see failure to find what the weak points might be. You can still figure out very general but still useful stuff from imperfect games. I think part of the effectiveness that is demonstrated in the replays is partially due to 'newness.' But like I said before I think the core concept of taking map control like that is very solid and it has a lot of potential once you have the control and multi-task/macro down. Having watched more replays, I think you can probably play against it with modifications to current builds... depending on the maps. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Actually I find these losses replays give us a lot a information about unit control and the general flow. Several considerations would be : - it's particularly difficult to kill buildings with this composition, hence the power of a slow push with turrets - due to how their splash works and the dps of marines, hellions are bound to die before the rest get into a nice position and kill the marines. Also, marauders in front (especially with concussive) prevent hellions from getting a nice surround, or even fire right away, giving more time for the marines to fire. A flank is thus more important where the army mix includes a sizable portion a marauders. - once tanks are sieged, their splash combined to marines dps is lethal to hellions. In this aspect, this build is effectively played like muta/bling, even from the opponent's point of view : tanks sieged, stimming the marines and running them back so that hellions take shots before they can reach them. - bio play is arguably the quickest to get upgrades, due to marines not costing that much gas. Since their upgrades scale quite well with stim, this style becomes less cost-efficient you don't keep up with armor upgrades. - as the game progresses, it's getting harder to "clean up" the remaining marines with banshees before focusing the tanks/marauders because of the combat shield upgrade and the fact that a marine army replenishes faster than banshees, even on 3 starports. Also, since the more the marines the more hellions will die approching, the bigger the armies the bigger ratio of hellions to marines will be needed to achieve similar results. - the build lack a good way to harass a turret-supported PF expansion without getting a real lot of banshees or sacrificing a lot of hellions. Considering all these, I think knowing whether or not to commit become extremely important. In one of the losses against ThisIsJimmy (game on Scrap Station), Echoic run in with the hellions, kill all the marines, and proceed to clean up the remaining marauders. But he loses all the hellions in the process, and since he's forced to fight near his expansion (I think he'll relate that to mistakes of his own?) the marauders kill some scvs each time. So getting a maximum of hellions out of the fight once the enemy light units are roasted seem quite important to me, as Echoic didn't have enough hellions in the last fights to kill all the marines, leaving his banshees dying. Of course he had to prevent the marauders from attacking his scvs, so attacking as far from our own base as possible and pulling the hellions out of the fight once their job is done is important. Also, the damage done by the sieged tanks. I guess for this one since we have air superiority we should pry at the opponent's position as much as possible to catch him when he unsieges, not necessarily commiting everything but at least getting the marines, and leaving before he can siege again. If enough anti-air as been killed, clean up then. tl;dr - this build might not fare well on small maps, due to mech pushes - this build can't kill buildings: it's very important to prevent the opponent from getting PF and turrets at an expansion, or slow pushing across short distances with turrets that hellions can't roast - hellions are the mineral dump, but they aren't as disposable as they may seem. Don't lose them to ground-to-ground enemy units once you cleaned up the marines, because those will be replenished far faster than your hellions, especially late game - it can take time to clean up enemy forces, especially since the main damage dealer then is the banshee. Fight as far of dangerous positions as possible, because not being able to kill your airforce doesn't mean they won't be able to kill anything - if your opponent uses bio, make sure to research armor upgrades to combat his cost-effectiveness | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
why get 2 factories? 1 reactored factory produces SO MUCH hellions you could never need more than 1 maybe the best way to open this build is to reactor your barracks fast letting you pump lots of marines, factory finishes put techlab on factory techlab finishes upgrades pre igniter and make some hellions pre igniter finishes, put factory on rax reactor, then put newly created starport on factory techlab and pump banshees. banshees allow you to harass and you have marines for anti air so far create another techlab starport. so at this point your buildings look like this rax - naked factory - reactor starport - techlab starport - techlab pump marines from 1rax. get pre igniter hellions from reactor factory. You technically should have achieved starport faster than your opponent, so if he went banshees you can switch a starport with the factory in order to produce reactored vikings. Once you have enough vikings, put the starport back onto the techlab this also allows you to transition to battlecruisers eventually, and air owns all terran ground except for marines, and the hellions own marines, and you should have achieved starport faster than your enemy so you have air superiority | ||
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Aoi_10
United States155 Posts
On February 04 2011 06:36 roymarthyup wrote: why get 2 factories? 1 reactored factory produces SO MUCH hellions you could never need more than 1 maybe the best way to open this build is to reactor your barracks fast letting you pump lots of marines, factory finishes put techlab on factory techlab finishes upgrades pre igniter and make some hellions pre igniter finishes, put factory on rax reactor, then put newly created starport on factory techlab and pump banshees. banshees allow you to harass and you have marines for anti air so far create another techlab starport. so at this point your buildings look like this rax - naked factory - reactor starport - techlab starport - techlab pump marines from 1rax. get pre igniter hellions from reactor factory. You technically should have achieved starport faster than your opponent, so if he went banshees you can switch a starport with the factory in order to produce reactored vikings. Once you have enough vikings, put the starport back onto the techlab this also allows you to transition to battlecruisers eventually, and air owns all terran ground except for marines, and the hellions own marines, and you should have achieved starport faster than your enemy so you have air superiority From the "FAQ" section of the original post: Q: Why 2facts? Why not just make a reactor? A: 2facts allows you to create 2x hellions while researching preigniter. It removes the inherent danger that comes with using only one factory to produce hellions. 2factories makes you much safer vs 2rax openings and early cheese, and gives you infrastructure for later down the road. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On February 04 2011 06:46 Aoi_10 wrote: From the "FAQ" section of the original post: Q: Why 2facts? Why not just make a reactor? A: 2facts allows you to create 2x hellions while researching preigniter. It removes the inherent danger that comes with using only one factory to produce hellions. 2factories makes you much safer vs 2rax openings and early cheese, and gives you infrastructure for later down the road. maybe so but those rushes probably be stopped with 1bunker 1 reactor rax pumping marines and 1 factory making hellions i think a advantage to going rax factory starport is that once pre igniter finishes you could have 2 tech lab starports faster at that point pumping 2port banshee which will shred so much | ||
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Aoi_10
United States155 Posts
On February 04 2011 06:54 roymarthyup wrote: maybe so but those rushes probably be stopped with 1bunker 1 reactor rax pumping marines and 1 factory making hellions i think a advantage to going rax factory starport is that once pre igniter finishes you could have 2 tech lab starports faster at that point pumping 2port banshee which will shred so much Of course, there's more than one way to hold off early pressure. In this particular build, the more natural way is a comparatively large number of early hellions. I don't think anyone disagrees that marines off of a reactored barracks, plus a bunker, performs well against early pressure. But that bunker and those marines (and the reactor) are syphoning minerals away from additional hellions and buildings. Again, as noted in the original post, minerals are tight enough without the extra marines that an early supply drop is actually built into the plan. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
There is absolutely no way this build holds against a MM push, but luckily nobody ever opens that, I think I've seen it 2-3 times in my last hundred TvT. I find microing my hellions like roaches to be most effective once the number of hellions rises above 5 or so, what about you guys? | ||
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SEA_Syntax
Philippines24 Posts
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Aoi_10
United States155 Posts
On February 04 2011 09:13 SEA_Syntax wrote: This is me just asking....why would others like to look at failure reps? imo if you like to study a build, would you be just better off studying the wins to note down the good points? if you study the loses, you might assume that the build was played out perfect and countered by the other player, when the mistake was in the micro or somewhere in the BO all along... At least two reasons. First, mistakes are an important part of the learning process. Seeing someone else make a particular mistake using a particular build, along with the consequences, makes it less likely that you'll be making the mistake in the future. Second, people are naturally curious to see whether there are any builds/strategies that counter this build without regard to how well it is played. | ||
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
Replay http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134578-1v1-terran-metalopolis | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
You had this one no problem after the first drop when you were 11 workers ahead. You didn't get a reactor on your second starport which you could have used your rax to build which would have let you get a medicav while maintaining air superiority for a second drop that would have worked great. Also you really need to be microign those expensive banshees, you lost quite a few for no reason and could have done tons of damage with them otherwise. The main point though is that you played too passively. This build gets weaker with time. You could easily just have taken all your hellions and run around the contain and killed all his scvs. Less risky would be either another hellion drop or by splitting off a few of your banshees, you have all the best harass units in the game, make use of them. Secondary point, micro your banshees, they are fragile and expensive but very powerful, especially in this build you can't be losing them recklessly. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The first game I lost because he attacked earlier than I thought, with stim marines (4 rax) and some scvs to try and build bunkers. I would have held it had I positioned the hellions at my ramp on hold, but once in my base I lost the 3 hellions and 2 marines I had (the drop, en route, had to come back to defend). When he reinforced with purely marauders I was done for. This one comes from my bad lecture, thinking he would go probably go banshees and getting a raven instead of a banshee myself. Second game, well... I clearly lost because of a lack of scouting. I easily repelled his marines/hellions/tank first attack, using his rax as a spotter, even though I had to sacrifice my first viking to help kill the tank. My drop, during this time, killed all but 5 of his scvs, and I expanded. A PDD and clutch timing for cloak allowed me to beat back his 2 vikings 4 tanks "all-in" (across the destructible rocks), since he had air superiority after I lost the first viking (I took it back at the next production cycle). I could have killed him then, since he cancelled the turrets he was putting when I dropped. I would have seen that had I poked. Better scouting would also have allowed me to see his hellion harass in advance (not that it killed that much), but moreover when he put turrets just outside my vision by the backdoor, then directly into my base. Of course, once he had tanks sieging me and vikings sitting on top of 2 turrets, it was tricky. I think with a PDD I could have cleared the vikings, then sacrificed my banshees to kill the tanks and repelled the attack, though. But the so close positions and the use of turrets was proven to be a very dangerous combination in case of a push, I think, even though in this game it all came down to scouting really. Edit : just played a 3rd game, SP across the rocks again, against someone who tried it too (i guess he's going to read this :D). It was rather short, since we both killed quite an amount of each other's SCVs, but it was very fun nonetheless, although I admit I wouldn't like all my TvTs to play out this short. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
This is especially true if you can do straight tank pushes (think Steppes). This is because one of the important part of this family of strategies is to keep your army large enough so you can counter threat when they try to push out until they have enough defenses. By which point you should have been able to snow ball your economy to tech to something that can beat his game-ending big push. If they do turtle, then from watching more replays, I would say that you would just tech to battle cruisers while upgrading armor and Yamato to force him to throw resources into reactor ports since ground counters to up-armored BC are inefficient at best. However you need 3 bases atleast to effectively go BCs(this from playing Toss). | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
I agree with the post above that the response to the turtle slow-push is going to be BCs with Yamato. Will answer more Qs soon. | ||
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