On February 08 2011 09:41 VanGarde wrote: This build really does seem amazingly strong, but I wonder if it isn't the wrong approach to see this as a whole game strategy. I mean, most of the issues or at least potential weaknesses in this build lies in the lategame, in fact just like the banshee + hellion play mimics baneling mutalisk in the earlier stages of the game, giving huge map control and amazing abilities to win small skirmishes and deny your opponents aggression, so does it mimic baneling muta in the late game in the sense that once turret lines, thors, lots of tanks and planetary fortresses arrive, and the open spaces of the map start to shrink, it is no longer very feasible.
The transition to battlecruisers leaves one huge problem as far as I can see. In TvT, if I see the other terran going for bc's I instantly start making vikings because I know that even if I were down in viking count before, the switch to bc's means the bc player has to cut all viking production.
I think this build is better seen as an opener and early mid game strategy where you control the map and harass. But ideally you would want to transition into something else while taking your third.
Unlike TvZ, when Zerg is just busy on holding T and macro up - in this BO, not only u're macroing up better him with map control = more expos, u're also constant pressure him with hellions drops and sneakes, and banshees haras on naked tanks and buildings.
So by the time u will be ready to transfer to BCs to "end the game" he wont have the eco or the porduction to produce enough vkings
Another thing - u'll be upgrading ur Air upgrdes all the time, and he probablly wont, and Bc starts with 3 armor, so with fully upgraded it can handle alot of dmg... and a good useage on yamato cannons can eliminate alot of vkings...
Actually that is not unlike TvZ that is exactly like a muta centered TvZ midgame where zerg both takes complete map control and pressures constantly with muta threat and thus is free to expand around the map with the mutas threatening a devastating counter attack if terran tries to move out too much.
In a way you are correct that if everything goes your way then you will have a sufficient economical advantage to go bc's, but they still feel "forced". It is not the strongest lategame and this has actually been demonstrated in most of the games where this build is eventually beaten.
Battlecruiser, viking, hellion will lose to thor, viking, marine and a build that is too centered on requiring a substantial economic lead in the late game is a flawed build. The hellion and air dominance early is the strength of the build but how much damage you end up doing is not ultimately up to you, you will in all likelyhood be ahead in economy but not necessarily by enough to force a very immobile battlecruiser transition.
It seems much more natural to go for a more bio centered transition than to force bc's. What is the purpose of bc's in the build? Well, when enough thors are out to make the splash damage challenge your viking/banshee air dominance the bc's are there to take over the role. But the point of the air in the first place was in mobility, and in shutting down tank play. Both of which bc's are really bad at.
It seems that a bio transition with that extra economy feels much more natural, marauders rape thors in more ways than battlecruisers could dream of. They are only vulnerable to marines and air, the two things that your hellions and your vikings are shutting down. And most importantly marauders are fast, and they can be used in drops since you already have the aerial infrastructure to get some medivacs out. The banshee's are strong in this build because they force marines, which the hellions rape, and the hellions are good because they force marauders and tanks, which the banshee's rape. Likewise marauders force tanks and marines which is already covered.
True the marauders would be a good idea, it would sure as hell be easier to control, but how much potential it has in the hands of a good (really good) player.... it's very difficult to say, sky mech and hellions have a lot of potential if controlled properly. Personally I'd go with the marauder idea since in all honesty I have fairly poor (shit) micro. Anyway. I doubt you opponent will have enough economy (you're supposed to be dropping, banshees etc) to get enough thors to either get the critical mass to be a threat to BCs or protect the marines from your hellions properly, the opponents vikings should be basically a non-factor once the marines are taken out because of your own vikings. If your opponent gets beefy mech units to protect their marines they are sacrificing air units (not air control they should never have that) and can be killed with hellion + BC. The tanks would be better at killing hellions so you can't move in with them until they are gone, personally I would sac a few BCs to kill their tanks (also can be done with banshees though) so I can clean up with the hellions. The thors are worse at protecting the marines from hellions but better against air, so you can just move in with your 25+ hellions to kill of most of the marines and then move in with the BCs to clean up the thors. It may not be cost effective (affective?) but with the economic lead you should be able to do it.
Also you're forgeting banshees and ravens in the mix.
A build that requires a lead in the late game is not flawed so long as it can get and hold that lead. That is how zerg works, zerg requires a lead to function late game (300 food push anyone?) but that's O.K (in theory, imbalance issues aside) because it can get that lead and hold it.
You have a valid point in that Terran can do something better with its economic lead, marauders do make sense for the mid-late to late game (aside from upgrades so you need to prepare for them) but early to early-mid game the air+hellion mobility is just too good to ignore IMO, if you can control it properly. Hellion+marauder+sky mech would be horrible to deal with as another terran in late game. EDIT: Typos EDIT: Forgot the last point EDIT: Look I'm probably going to do alot of these so if you quote me make sure I haven't changed anything, added cost effeciency point. EDIT: Added how hard it is to control properly EDIT: Clarified a few points
So you chain 2 cheeses (blue flame drop + 2 port shee) together and call it style of play. "sky mech" is no more a style of play then 6 pool into one base muta is a style of play. 3 rax would kill you, tank viking would kill you, 1 rax expand(oGsTheSTC-style -which by the way is a real example of style) would kill you, mega rax would kill you.
Reading the OP trying to justify a supply drop was hilarious. There is a reason drewbie called this a blue flame noob build; its not hard to control. shee micro against rines requires some control, buts thats it.
Playing tvt without tanks is a joke. Yeah shunning tanks is possible if you decide to be a cheesier faggot than Liberache inserting a wheel of gouda up the ass of Tom Cruise, followed up by a rat with AIDS, while Dr. Seuss jacks them both off using the holes in swiss cheese.
On February 08 2011 18:22 treekiller wrote: So you chain 2 cheeses (blue flame drop + 2 port shee) together and call it style of play. "sky mech" is no more a style of play then 6 pool into one base muta is a style of play. 3 rax would kill you, tank viking would kill you, 1 rax expand(oGsTheSTC-style -which by the way is a real example of style) would kill you, mega rax would kill you.
Reading the OP trying to justify a supply drop was hilarious. There is a reason drewbie called this a blue flame noob build; its not hard to control. shee micro against rines requires some control, buts thats it.
Playing tvt without tanks is a joke. Yeah shunning tanks is possible if you decide to be a cheesier faggot than Liberache inserting a wheel of gouda up the ass of Tom Cruise, followed up by a rat with AIDS, while Dr. Seuss jacks them both off using the holes in swiss cheese.
Ah yes so it's cheese is it? Even though it does the following Hard counters all-in type rine pressure Double expands (albeit later) Gains map control Doesn't cut probes Isn' totally reliant on people not scouting it Can actually deal with 3 rax and tank viking
Lets define cheese shall we? ''A strategy that is entirely relient on your opponent either not scouting it or not knowing the correct response to it'' Now does this stratergy sound like a cheese?
And Drewbie didn't call it that he called it a good surprise build. Most people have criticised the idea of sky mech because of the mid-game not the early game opening, that has recieved the most praise. iEchoic is a well known reputable player with a excellent reputation for creating good builds. And a blue flame hellion drop is not a cheese. Jinro did not cheese MKP in the first GSL match he played against him. It does require control have you actually tried it? Have you read the past posts? Where the hell did the rat with AIDs come from? Does it happen to be the location your manners, tact and civility went to? What annoys me most about you post is not it's content but it's manner frankly you come across like an asshole. EDIT: grammar.
2 port banshee is cheese in all match ups. The reason he could double expand was he had done econ damage. If he hadnt done that damage, he could not have done so.
blue flame drops are semi cheese if you rush to them, though not in mid game if you do so without giving too much up. Investing so much in blue flame hellions out of 2 factories relies in a large part in the opponent not scouting it.
The build relies in a large part on the opponent misreading what you are doing and hoping the opponent mismicros. Look at the map he played on LT in his replay pack. If the guy had not run his rines into the hellions as he was going up the ramp, there would have been no way he could have stopped the push. Another advantage to the build is how the two cheeses work well together. The natural response to shees early on is marines, but the helions take care of that.
Its completely retarded to think of this as a metagame shift. Its two all-in/cheesy build linked together in a cleaver way. If the blue flame does no damage and the banshees get held off, your done.
On February 08 2011 20:00 treekiller wrote: Another advantage to the build is how the two cheeses work well together. The natural response to shees early on is marines, but the helions take care of that.
wow, you just made the strategy make sense!
that's almost like going baneling bust cheese with muta cheese and making mass lings as fillers...
It's not a 2-port banshee build, the only scenario you ever make 2port banshee is if they go bio/FE which you have to scout ahead of time. You should never do 2port banshee otherwise. Just ignore him and wait for mods...
On February 04 2011 17:29 iTzSnypah wrote: Im sorry but this build doesnt work against banshee rushes at all, his first banshee will be at your base before you start your viking/raven...HERE that proves it, and to top it all off he was abusing the bunker glitch on lt...(and he wasn't the real slayersboxer)
Watching this you didn't execute the build properly so it is not a valid example of losing to fast banshees. The biggest problem was you dropped a MULE instead of a supply and this set back your first factory by 20 seconds.
I am a bit confused by this. The build order in the OP states that the first supply drop comes when you build your starports. How can that delay your first factory? Should the supply drop come earlier?
On February 02 2011 09:09 Antisocialmunky wrote: Random question:
What happens if you play against this strategy with this strategy?
Imagine a nuclear holocaust where all people on both sides die, and you have to continually rebuild from scratch. Basically that.
It's the only scenario where having more hellions is better than more vikings because hellions kill other hellions better than banshees do, and even if you have banshees you're not going to stop hellions from killing all your SCVs.
Although you can go for air control and do banshees. You basically have to decide to control one or the other and see how it pans out. I've only played against it once or twice (vs teammates) so I don't know for sure.
This sounds like Broodwar ZvZ. What have you done?
PS. Also, why does ThisIsJimmy appear so often on the losing side of replays? I feel bad for him sometimes. :-\
Haha I must defend myself. That loss was the 1st time I had seen the build. It is actually pretty good and you can definitely make it work. I'm not sure if it is really strong or weak against any build but the advantage of it is that you can do a lot of worker harass throughout the game with very little units.
I play a lot of ladder and lose a lot which is why you see me losing so much lol. Here is another replay of me NOT losing against this build even when getting behind early...
he lost b/c he playd very badly.
1. did not clear out bunker in his natural to take third 2. losing banshees carelessly 3. going BC's off 2 base 4. going BC's without gaining air superiority (never EVER do this when doing this build)
I like this build, it is really nice and has nice dynamics i don't find with tanks. However, when i play it (plat league), I tend to get hit by marauders just a bit before my banshee pops. The marauders bust through my meager hellions and then procede to do enough building damage to hurt me severely.
I would like to know how to deal with early marauderpressure with this build.
On February 08 2011 21:06 Zavinout wrote: I like this build, it is really nice and has nice dynamics i don't find with tanks. However, when i play it (plat league), I tend to get hit by marauders just a bit before my banshee pops. The marauders bust through my meager hellions and then procede to do enough building damage to hurt me severely.
I would like to know how to deal with early marauderpressure with this build.
If he hits that exact timing you need to do 2 things: Pull your scvs to help defend the push - marauders suck vs scvs and he won't be able to kill many of them, just be sure to get rid of any marines fast. And do a hellion drop at his base as he has all his forces at your base and none defending. You should be able to deal way more damage to him.
I have even been able to fend off mm/scv allins that way (go in with hellions, kill all scvs/marines and then pull your scvs and kill marauders with scvs/hellions). The susequent counterattack always does terrible, terrible damage to his econ and it's usually gg.
Thank you very much for the build. I was trying out some similar strategies, but transitioning from hellion to sky tech is a fantastic idea, and I hadn't got there...
I've tried it a couple of times and its worked out great. I deplore viking tank, I'm not sure why - maybe its just so plodding that I simply don't like playing it but didn't know what to do to counter.
I find that waiting on the first expansion is good - I stayed ahead in SCV count when my opp fast expanded, and they were on their heels the whole time. In one game I had a mass of hellions, I retreated when I saw his push (which was dumb) and then attacked when I had my vikings/banshees in position, but he had sieged up his 5 or so tanks. The fact that I still won the engagement with no micro on the hellions shows that the composition is very good. He killed all my hellions but my 7 banshees had no problems with the remaining army.
After talking a third, and have established air, what do you think about switching to mass thors if they don't have a huge number of tanks. People tend to level off at about 5-8 tanks, so I'm thinking that some thors could prove useful to rolling over into defended positions as a tanking unit. As well, concerned that opp could go marauder/Thor which would be a counter to this build. Would be helpful attacking a 3rd exp to absorb the PD (could even bring along some scvs to keep thor alive) while hellions roast scvs...
As well, I'm thinking about adding a tech lab to the barracks and then building 6-7 reapers to go in and 1 shot turrets and 2 shot (almost) supply depots...but only when established with 2 bases and getting 3rd and sitting on a lot of resources...
On February 09 2011 00:57 matrius wrote:After talking a third, and have established air, what do you think about switching to mass thors if they don't have a huge number of tanks. People tend to level off at about 5-8 tanks, so I'm thinking that some thors could prove useful to rolling over into defended positions as a tanking unit. As well, concerned that opp could go marauder/Thor which would be a counter to this build. Would be helpful attacking a 3rd exp to absorb the PD (could even bring along some scvs to keep thor alive) while hellions roast scvs...
You don't need thors to "absorb" PF damage, as they outrange PFs - unless he upgrades range, but who does ?
I'd advise against it though, thors are really slow and you lose your mobility advantage that way.
Edit: Nevermind, i just realized you wanted the thor to tank while the hellions rape the mineral line. In that context, a thor might be useful, yes.
I was thinking about this composition the other day, hellion for fast ground control and as a mineral dump, banshee as main attack force, and viking/raven to support the banshees, with BC transition in lategame.
The only problem I could see with it is that, if he opens with the standard marine/tank, in the early game he probably has enough ground forces to, as Day9 puts it, just go fucking kill you. It is true that you can put an enormous amount of pressure in the early game by econ harrassment (blueflame helion drops, which IMHO will become a must for terran in each and every match up, plus banshees). But if he builds minimal air defence and leaves 1 sieged tank at home, walks up to your natural, sieges and pushes up, your are pretty much screwed. Basically hellions melt to tank fire and then banshees to marine fire.
So the only way I see it working is by playing like a zerg, basically attacking by hit and runs, maintaining map control and harrassing everywhere, while avoiding at any cost a frontal engagement. Hitting him while he is unsieged and on the move, to discourage him to set up a contain. Which also means that you should expand fast, and expand everywhere while you can, to get to the lategame with an advantage and deliver the final blow.
It sounds really difficult and tricky. But it also sounds very fun. Will try, definely.
An early contain is actually not that bad. It buys you time to get your air up and lets you slowly pick on the tanks with your banshees. Also, while most of his forces are at your doorstep, he'll have a very hard time to handle your hellion drop.
I was contained by marine/tank several times with this build but never lost that way. The more dangerous thing is when they skip the contain and just walk up your base with tank/marine. If this happens, you have to outmicro him, hope you kill all his marines with your hellions and stall for the first banshee.
I am curious about how a one rax reaper expand would measure against this. Assuming that you wait until you have two reapers before you go into the base by my calculations you will have two reapers in the opponents base before the first hellion is out, and 3 reapers by the time the first hellion pops out. Considering that there are only two marines to defend the early game a player who goes reaper opening and then see's and recognizes this build for the double factory should pretty much be able to wipe out the economy of the hellioning player before blue flame is even done.
On February 08 2011 18:22 treekiller wrote: So you chain 2 cheeses (blue flame drop + 2 port shee) together and call it style of play. "sky mech" is no more a style of play then 6 pool into one base muta is a style of play. 3 rax would kill you, tank viking would kill you, 1 rax expand(oGsTheSTC-style -which by the way is a real example of style) would kill you, mega rax would kill you.
Reading the OP trying to justify a supply drop was hilarious. There is a reason drewbie called this a blue flame noob build; its not hard to control. shee micro against rines requires some control, buts thats it.
Playing tvt without tanks is a joke. Yeah shunning tanks is possible if you decide to be a cheesier faggot than Liberache inserting a wheel of gouda up the ass of Tom Cruise, followed up by a rat with AIDS, while Dr. Seuss jacks them both off using the holes in swiss cheese.
You're retarded. I've been using this against strong players in tournaments such as Control on eu and vVvNGry with great success. Sure I lost to cloud but hed beat me either way.
Watch my tl open game vs 3500 eu master terran listed in the op then tell me its a shit cheese build.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-186039.jpg)
