• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:10
CEST 18:10
KST 01:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four0BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3
StarCraft 2
General
The New Patch Killed Mech! Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy herO joins T1 Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BSL Season 21 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1680 users

[G] Critical Upgrade Analysis - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
January 27 2011 14:21 GMT
#81
I decided to add the Stalker Shield and TvP summary to the OP as it is worth mentioning.
"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
flanksteak
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada246 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-27 14:41:46
January 27 2011 14:41 GMT
#82
Good stuff! Will definitely incorporate some of this into my play.

Didn't see it in the first post, but maybe someone knows: does air carapace increase the number of shots mutas can take from static AA defense? (turrets, photons, spores)

Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-27 15:32:12
January 27 2011 15:27 GMT
#83
+1 Mech Attack: no effects on kill efficiency. On a Sidenote, with +2 Attack lets Mutalists die in 2 Shots instead of 3(thanks to Saechiis)

It's a must to counter any carapace upgrades. Being 0/0 mech upgrades against 0/0/1 zerg upgrades is else very very painful. I understand it's not being included that your opponent has armor/attack upgrades, but getting this upgrade is pretty much a must as a precaution, since you are in a pretty bad shape if he gets +1 armor(and with it, you make his armor upgrades on lings irrelevant throughout the game).

# +1 Bio Armor: Zerglings need 2 more hits on Marines and 10 more on Marauders
# +1 Bio Attack: Marines kill Zerglings and Roaches in less hits, Marauder kill Roaches and Hydras in less hits, Marines need 3 less hits on Mutalisks (thanks to nalgene)

Tbh I'd mark both of those as blue. The difference I felt when I started double upgrading my rines... It's insane and just makes any other units bar blings/infestors(to some extend)/ultras(to some extend) irrelevant.
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
January 27 2011 15:44 GMT
#84
On January 28 2011 00:27 Zarahtra wrote:
Show nested quote +
+1 Mech Attack: no effects on kill efficiency. On a Sidenote, with +2 Attack lets Mutalists die in 2 Shots instead of 3(thanks to Saechiis)

It's a must to counter any carapace upgrades. Being 0/0 mech upgrades against 0/0/1 zerg upgrades is else very very painful. I understand it's not being included that your opponent has armor/attack upgrades, but getting this upgrade is pretty much a must as a precaution, since you are in a pretty bad shape if he gets +1 armor(and with it, you make his armor upgrades on lings irrelevant throughout the game).

Show nested quote +
# +1 Bio Armor: Zerglings need 2 more hits on Marines and 10 more on Marauders
# +1 Bio Attack: Marines kill Zerglings and Roaches in less hits, Marauder kill Roaches and Hydras in less hits, Marines need 3 less hits on Mutalisks (thanks to nalgene)

Tbh I'd mark both of those as blue. The difference I felt when I started double upgrading my rines... It's insane and just makes any other units bar blings/infestors(to some extend)/ultras(to some extend) irrelevant.



As stated above, the issue of countering upgrades is not the topic of this thread.
Its about "upgrade changes kill count of X against Y" and not "otherwise, you're in pretty bad shape"
To counter any upgrades you basically look at the matchup from the other side, see if there are crucial upgrades, and then respon with your upgrade, but that is interpretation and free usage for everyone.

On the other point:
I dont get what you mean. +Armor is marked blue as critical upgrade, and you said yourself that +1 Attack makes a remarkable difference, so its green.
Did I do something wrong?


"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
January 27 2011 15:46 GMT
#85
Really appreciate you looking into tvp mech. Thanks!
Official Entusman #21
Fateless
Profile Joined January 2011
United States99 Posts
January 27 2011 16:03 GMT
#86
Thanks for that excellent post. I had been putting a lot of thought into this recently, and it's a huge help that you crunched all of this data for everyone.
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
January 27 2011 18:27 GMT
#87
thanks for doing all these calculations.
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
Rasva_Pallo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland126 Posts
January 27 2011 19:18 GMT
#88
Thanks for the good article. It was interesting read and will give good ideas what to uprage.

One thing I would love to see tested more is the Protoss shield uprages.
Whatever, go to ---> wesnoth.org
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
January 27 2011 19:25 GMT
#89
On January 28 2011 04:18 Huumy wrote:
Thanks for the good article. It was interesting read and will give good ideas what to uprage.

One thing I would love to see tested more is the Protoss shield uprages.


Problem with shield upgrades is that they are more expensive than armor, and most Protoss units have the same or more Hitpoints than Armor. So it only applies in very constructed cases, one of them Plexa pointed out, Stalkers, so I went on that. Archons obviously are the other.
But, frankly, for every other Unit, everything Shield Armor can, Basic Armor can better (or more cost effective)
"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
Flight Bird
Profile Joined October 2010
25 Posts
January 27 2011 20:05 GMT
#90
TvP - +1 Air Attack allows a viking to kill a colossus in 2 less hits
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
January 27 2011 20:10 GMT
#91
On January 28 2011 05:05 Flight Bird wrote:
TvP - +1 Air Attack allows a viking to kill a colossus in 2 less hits


It is actually 1 less hit but wow, how did i miss that one, thanks
"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
Aoi_10
Profile Joined October 2010
United States155 Posts
January 27 2011 20:40 GMT
#92
Thanks for this, Kaz - stuff like this is the reason why I love this site.

A couple comments on the following:

"+1 Mech Attack: Tanks take 1 less shot on Zealots, Stalkers and Collosi, Hellions kill Zealots in 5 shots instead of 6, and Stalkers in 20 instead of 22 Shots. Thors kill Voidrays in 5 instead of 6 Shots, and Phoenixes in 7 instead of 8 (Sidenote: +3 Hellions makes kill Zealots in 5 shots, +3 Thors always kill Voidrays in 5 Shots, +3 Thors kill Colossi in 5 shots instead of 6, all regardless of upgrades)"

First, unupgraded hellions do 14 dmg against light units, implying they would kill zealots in 11 shots, not 6. +1 would case them to do 16 dmg, implying they would kill zealots in 10 shots. (FWIW, with the blue flame upgrade, they should kill a zealot in 7 hits, and with both blue flame and +1 attack, should kill a zealot in 6 hits.)

Second, unupgraded thors do 24 dmg over 4 shots to non-light units, and void rays are non-light units (armored, actually). So, it takes 11 shots from an un-upgraded thor to take down a void ray, and 9 shots from a thor with +1 attack. (Your numbers would be correct if void rays were considered light.) Phoenixes, meanwhile, crumple after 4 shots from an un-upgraded thor, as well as a +1 thor. (Your numbers would be correct if phoenixes were considered non-light.)

Feel free to double-check my math on any of the above - I can't test anything at the moment.
regulator_mk
Profile Joined June 2010
United States127 Posts
January 27 2011 21:44 GMT
#93
There are a couple things you might want to think about regarding real game situations. I know it's hard to include everything, but a couple things to consider:

- Stimmed marauders have 105 hp, making +attack upgrades on immortals critical (and probably some other things). Maybe you should add things like this for stimmed marauders.

- In a "standard" ZvT, the Terran gets way ahead in upgrades, and by the time the zerg finishes his first upgrade for ground units, Terran is almost 2/2. If you're behind on upgrades like this, all of a sudden +1 attack looks way more attractive, as +1 attack reduces the number of attacks to kill a +2 armor marine by 3 (not just by 1 as for +0 armor marines). Because of situations like this, you may want to include critical upgrades not assuming your opponent has 0 upgrades.
Reptilia
Profile Joined June 2010
Chile913 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-27 22:01:50
January 27 2011 22:01 GMT
#94
Wow, great post
I didnt know +1 armor was better (than weapon) in most cases (as t)
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
January 27 2011 23:32 GMT
#95
On January 28 2011 05:40 Aoi_10 wrote:
Thanks for this, Kaz - stuff like this is the reason why I love this site.

A couple comments on the following:

"+1 Mech Attack: Tanks take 1 less shot on Zealots, Stalkers and Collosi, Hellions kill Zealots in 5 shots instead of 6, and Stalkers in 20 instead of 22 Shots. Thors kill Voidrays in 5 instead of 6 Shots, and Phoenixes in 7 instead of 8 (Sidenote: +3 Hellions makes kill Zealots in 5 shots, +3 Thors always kill Voidrays in 5 Shots, +3 Thors kill Colossi in 5 shots instead of 6, all regardless of upgrades)"

First, unupgraded hellions do 14 dmg against light units, implying they would kill zealots in 11 shots, not 6. +1 would case them to do 16 dmg, implying they would kill zealots in 10 shots. (FWIW, with the blue flame upgrade, they should kill a zealot in 7 hits, and with both blue flame and +1 attack, should kill a zealot in 6 hits.)

Second, unupgraded thors do 24 dmg over 4 shots to non-light units, and void rays are non-light units (armored, actually). So, it takes 11 shots from an un-upgraded thor to take down a void ray, and 9 shots from a thor with +1 attack. (Your numbers would be correct if void rays were considered light.) Phoenixes, meanwhile, crumple after 4 shots from an un-upgraded thor, as well as a +1 thor. (Your numbers would be correct if phoenixes were considered non-light.)

Feel free to double-check my math on any of the above - I can't test anything at the moment.



a) When i refer to hellions I always mean blue flame hellions, it would be stupid having them around and banking upgrades on them without the upgrade with the highest payoff
Yeah, i somehow switched columns, its 7 and 6, need to correct that.

b) If i am not totally mistaken, void rays are light and phoenix armored (as stated in data basis). Maybe i wrote that down wrong, then it would be obviously wrong. But I admit, i am no protoss player, so my mind didnt tickle at that. Needs review, will get reviewed within 24 hours, promise
"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
January 27 2011 23:38 GMT
#96
On January 28 2011 06:44 regulator_mk wrote:
There are a couple things you might want to think about regarding real game situations. I know it's hard to include everything, but a couple things to consider:

- Stimmed marauders have 105 hp, making +attack upgrades on immortals critical (and probably some other things). Maybe you should add things like this for stimmed marauders.

- In a "standard" ZvT, the Terran gets way ahead in upgrades, and by the time the zerg finishes his first upgrade for ground units, Terran is almost 2/2. If you're behind on upgrades like this, all of a sudden +1 attack looks way more attractive, as +1 attack reduces the number of attacks to kill a +2 armor marine by 3 (not just by 1 as for +0 armor marines). Because of situations like this, you may want to include critical upgrades not assuming your opponent has 0 upgrades.



I totally agree with you that some assumptions are quite arbitrary. That is why I focussed on the first upgrade available and eventual +3 effects.

I don't have the knowledge and experience and I guess nobody really has at the moment to say how the game looks when both sides play fine perfectly regarding upgrades, in, say, a year. This might be different or same as now. But because of this, I don't want to overextend the whole issue.
I could of course pair up every possible unit with every possible unit and every possible upgrade combination and supply stockpiles of data on that but that would just burry the whole thread in data sheets.

I will keep this up date and while game evolves and some upgrades get standardized, further research will be done and may pay off.
"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
January 27 2011 23:41 GMT
#97
On January 28 2011 07:01 Reptilia wrote:
Wow, great post
I didnt know +1 armor was better (than weapon) in most cases (as t)


I wouldnt neccessarily word it as "better".
I more often has critical influence the way the damage levels are designed.

But this is only one part of the game, and the main argument why damage most of the time is better than armor upgrade, is that armor upgrade lets you take exactly one damage less per shot while damage upgrade lets you deal at least one damage more per shot.
"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
faulty
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada204 Posts
January 27 2011 23:47 GMT
#98
Excellent post tyty
"More gg, more skill" - White-Ra
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-27 23:53:59
January 27 2011 23:52 GMT
#99
one very crucial thing is missing:

thors with +3 attack twoshot roaches with 0 or 1 armor upgrades.

thors deal 30(+3) x2 damage, roaches have 145 life with 1 base armor. with 0/1 armor upgrades, a +3 thor (39 dam x2) will do 38/37 dam per single shot, and there are 4 such shots in 2 thor attacks. this yields a "twoattack-damage" of 152/148 respectively, meaning the thor will twoshot instead of 3shot the roaches.

additionally, +2 attack means that thors kill mutas faster. this means that a thor-centric mech play in tvz relies heavily on attack upgrades. but ofc the armor upgrades also are very effective on thors. in other words: to fight fully upgraded thors, roaches need at least 2 armor upgrades or they get melted.
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
W2
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1177 Posts
January 28 2011 00:25 GMT
#100
PvT stats for +attack are misleading.

You are right that +attack does not affect how many hits to take down a full hp marine. But you never engage full-hp marines. The most likely scenario would be stimmed marines, which have 10 less hp. And +1 ground weapons means zealots need 1 less swing.
Hi
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#27
WardiTV255
IndyStarCraft 4
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 385
UpATreeSC 20
TKL 12
MindelVK 9
IndyStarCraft 4
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 36590
Calm 5311
Hyuk 4602
Sea 3272
GuemChi 1833
Bisu 1563
Horang2 1325
Flash 869
EffOrt 368
Larva 344
[ Show more ]
Mini 285
Soma 248
actioN 237
Soulkey 191
Hyun 154
Snow 146
TY 83
JYJ63
ggaemo 56
Mind 46
Killer 41
Aegong 25
Rock 22
Terrorterran 20
soO 18
Movie 18
SilentControl 16
Sacsri 13
scan(afreeca) 13
yabsab 10
Bale 10
Shine 8
HiyA 8
Dota 2
Gorgc7585
qojqva4226
Dendi1176
420jenkins402
BananaSlamJamma211
canceldota62
Counter-Strike
fl0m634
byalli482
markeloff210
edward59
FunKaTv 36
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor205
Other Games
singsing2373
hiko1245
B2W.Neo1130
FrodaN612
ceh9419
Sick323
Lowko299
Liquid`VortiX254
ArmadaUGS103
C9.Mang098
KnowMe82
XcaliburYe63
Mew2King56
Trikslyr44
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL574
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 38
• Reevou 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3141
League of Legends
• Nemesis3717
Other Games
• Shiphtur130
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 51m
WardiTV Invitational
18h 51m
WardiTV Invitational
22h 21m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 7h
Replay Cast
1d 17h
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Online Event
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.