EPT[G] Critical Upgrade Analysis - Page 5
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
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flanksteak
Canada246 Posts
Didn't see it in the first post, but maybe someone knows: does air carapace increase the number of shots mutas can take from static AA defense? (turrets, photons, spores) | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
+1 Mech Attack: no effects on kill efficiency. On a Sidenote, with +2 Attack lets Mutalists die in 2 Shots instead of 3(thanks to Saechiis) It's a must to counter any carapace upgrades. Being 0/0 mech upgrades against 0/0/1 zerg upgrades is else very very painful. I understand it's not being included that your opponent has armor/attack upgrades, but getting this upgrade is pretty much a must as a precaution, since you are in a pretty bad shape if he gets +1 armor(and with it, you make his armor upgrades on lings irrelevant throughout the game). # +1 Bio Armor: Zerglings need 2 more hits on Marines and 10 more on Marauders # +1 Bio Attack: Marines kill Zerglings and Roaches in less hits, Marauder kill Roaches and Hydras in less hits, Marines need 3 less hits on Mutalisks (thanks to nalgene) Tbh I'd mark both of those as blue. The difference I felt when I started double upgrading my rines... It's insane and just makes any other units bar blings/infestors(to some extend)/ultras(to some extend) irrelevant. | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 28 2011 00:27 Zarahtra wrote: It's a must to counter any carapace upgrades. Being 0/0 mech upgrades against 0/0/1 zerg upgrades is else very very painful. I understand it's not being included that your opponent has armor/attack upgrades, but getting this upgrade is pretty much a must as a precaution, since you are in a pretty bad shape if he gets +1 armor(and with it, you make his armor upgrades on lings irrelevant throughout the game). Tbh I'd mark both of those as blue. The difference I felt when I started double upgrading my rines... It's insane and just makes any other units bar blings/infestors(to some extend)/ultras(to some extend) irrelevant. As stated above, the issue of countering upgrades is not the topic of this thread. Its about "upgrade changes kill count of X against Y" and not "otherwise, you're in pretty bad shape"  To counter any upgrades you basically look at the matchup from the other side, see if there are crucial upgrades, and then respon with your upgrade, but that is interpretation and free usage for everyone. On the other point: I dont get what you mean. +Armor is marked blue as critical upgrade, and you said yourself that +1 Attack makes a remarkable difference, so its green. Did I do something wrong? | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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Fateless
United States99 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Rasva_Pallo
Finland126 Posts
One thing I would love to see tested more is the Protoss shield uprages. | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 28 2011 04:18 Huumy wrote: Thanks for the good article. It was interesting read and will give good ideas what to uprage. One thing I would love to see tested more is the Protoss shield uprages. Problem with shield upgrades is that they are more expensive than armor, and most Protoss units have the same or more Hitpoints than Armor. So it only applies in very constructed cases, one of them Plexa pointed out, Stalkers, so I went on that. Archons obviously are the other. But, frankly, for every other Unit, everything Shield Armor can, Basic Armor can better (or more cost effective) | ||
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Flight Bird
25 Posts
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 28 2011 05:05 Flight Bird wrote: TvP - +1 Air Attack allows a viking to kill a colossus in 2 less hits It is actually 1 less hit but wow, how did i miss that one, thanks | ||
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Aoi_10
United States155 Posts
A couple comments on the following: "+1 Mech Attack: Tanks take 1 less shot on Zealots, Stalkers and Collosi, Hellions kill Zealots in 5 shots instead of 6, and Stalkers in 20 instead of 22 Shots. Thors kill Voidrays in 5 instead of 6 Shots, and Phoenixes in 7 instead of 8 (Sidenote: +3 Hellions makes kill Zealots in 5 shots, +3 Thors always kill Voidrays in 5 Shots, +3 Thors kill Colossi in 5 shots instead of 6, all regardless of upgrades)" First, unupgraded hellions do 14 dmg against light units, implying they would kill zealots in 11 shots, not 6. +1 would case them to do 16 dmg, implying they would kill zealots in 10 shots. (FWIW, with the blue flame upgrade, they should kill a zealot in 7 hits, and with both blue flame and +1 attack, should kill a zealot in 6 hits.) Second, unupgraded thors do 24 dmg over 4 shots to non-light units, and void rays are non-light units (armored, actually). So, it takes 11 shots from an un-upgraded thor to take down a void ray, and 9 shots from a thor with +1 attack. (Your numbers would be correct if void rays were considered light.) Phoenixes, meanwhile, crumple after 4 shots from an un-upgraded thor, as well as a +1 thor. (Your numbers would be correct if phoenixes were considered non-light.) Feel free to double-check my math on any of the above - I can't test anything at the moment. | ||
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regulator_mk
United States127 Posts
- Stimmed marauders have 105 hp, making +attack upgrades on immortals critical (and probably some other things). Maybe you should add things like this for stimmed marauders. - In a "standard" ZvT, the Terran gets way ahead in upgrades, and by the time the zerg finishes his first upgrade for ground units, Terran is almost 2/2. If you're behind on upgrades like this, all of a sudden +1 attack looks way more attractive, as +1 attack reduces the number of attacks to kill a +2 armor marine by 3 (not just by 1 as for +0 armor marines). Because of situations like this, you may want to include critical upgrades not assuming your opponent has 0 upgrades. | ||
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
I didnt know +1 armor was better (than weapon) in most cases (as t) | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 28 2011 05:40 Aoi_10 wrote: Thanks for this, Kaz - stuff like this is the reason why I love this site. A couple comments on the following: "+1 Mech Attack: Tanks take 1 less shot on Zealots, Stalkers and Collosi, Hellions kill Zealots in 5 shots instead of 6, and Stalkers in 20 instead of 22 Shots. Thors kill Voidrays in 5 instead of 6 Shots, and Phoenixes in 7 instead of 8 (Sidenote: +3 Hellions makes kill Zealots in 5 shots, +3 Thors always kill Voidrays in 5 Shots, +3 Thors kill Colossi in 5 shots instead of 6, all regardless of upgrades)" First, unupgraded hellions do 14 dmg against light units, implying they would kill zealots in 11 shots, not 6. +1 would case them to do 16 dmg, implying they would kill zealots in 10 shots. (FWIW, with the blue flame upgrade, they should kill a zealot in 7 hits, and with both blue flame and +1 attack, should kill a zealot in 6 hits.) Second, unupgraded thors do 24 dmg over 4 shots to non-light units, and void rays are non-light units (armored, actually). So, it takes 11 shots from an un-upgraded thor to take down a void ray, and 9 shots from a thor with +1 attack. (Your numbers would be correct if void rays were considered light.) Phoenixes, meanwhile, crumple after 4 shots from an un-upgraded thor, as well as a +1 thor. (Your numbers would be correct if phoenixes were considered non-light.) Feel free to double-check my math on any of the above - I can't test anything at the moment. a) When i refer to hellions I always mean blue flame hellions, it would be stupid having them around and banking upgrades on them without the upgrade with the highest payoff Yeah, i somehow switched columns, its 7 and 6, need to correct that. b) If i am not totally mistaken, void rays are light and phoenix armored (as stated in data basis). Maybe i wrote that down wrong, then it would be obviously wrong. But I admit, i am no protoss player, so my mind didnt tickle at that. Needs review, will get reviewed within 24 hours, promise | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 28 2011 06:44 regulator_mk wrote: There are a couple things you might want to think about regarding real game situations. I know it's hard to include everything, but a couple things to consider: - Stimmed marauders have 105 hp, making +attack upgrades on immortals critical (and probably some other things). Maybe you should add things like this for stimmed marauders. - In a "standard" ZvT, the Terran gets way ahead in upgrades, and by the time the zerg finishes his first upgrade for ground units, Terran is almost 2/2. If you're behind on upgrades like this, all of a sudden +1 attack looks way more attractive, as +1 attack reduces the number of attacks to kill a +2 armor marine by 3 (not just by 1 as for +0 armor marines). Because of situations like this, you may want to include critical upgrades not assuming your opponent has 0 upgrades. I totally agree with you that some assumptions are quite arbitrary. That is why I focussed on the first upgrade available and eventual +3 effects. I don't have the knowledge and experience and I guess nobody really has at the moment to say how the game looks when both sides play fine perfectly regarding upgrades, in, say, a year. This might be different or same as now. But because of this, I don't want to overextend the whole issue. I could of course pair up every possible unit with every possible unit and every possible upgrade combination and supply stockpiles of data on that but that would just burry the whole thread in data sheets. I will keep this up date and while game evolves and some upgrades get standardized, further research will be done and may pay off. | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 28 2011 07:01 Reptilia wrote: Wow, great post I didnt know +1 armor was better (than weapon) in most cases (as t) I wouldnt neccessarily word it as "better". I more often has critical influence the way the damage levels are designed. But this is only one part of the game, and the main argument why damage most of the time is better than armor upgrade, is that armor upgrade lets you take exactly one damage less per shot while damage upgrade lets you deal at least one damage more per shot. | ||
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faulty
Canada204 Posts
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
thors with +3 attack twoshot roaches with 0 or 1 armor upgrades. thors deal 30(+3) x2 damage, roaches have 145 life with 1 base armor. with 0/1 armor upgrades, a +3 thor (39 dam x2) will do 38/37 dam per single shot, and there are 4 such shots in 2 thor attacks. this yields a "twoattack-damage" of 152/148 respectively, meaning the thor will twoshot instead of 3shot the roaches. additionally, +2 attack means that thors kill mutas faster. this means that a thor-centric mech play in tvz relies heavily on attack upgrades. but ofc the armor upgrades also are very effective on thors. in other words: to fight fully upgraded thors, roaches need at least 2 armor upgrades or they get melted. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
You are right that +attack does not affect how many hits to take down a full hp marine. But you never engage full-hp marines. The most likely scenario would be stimmed marines, which have 10 less hp. And +1 ground weapons means zealots need 1 less swing. | ||
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