EPT[G] Critical Upgrade Analysis - Page 3
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 26 2011 11:48 eth3n wrote: After that post last night someone should definitely add ZvP regarding zerg air armor versus P air I am not sure if I should cover Z air vs P air, as it doesn't happen often and in the long run, either Zerg has to dismiss air anyways, or Muta count gets so superior that Protoss can't pull ahead. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I am not sure if the investment of upgrades is justified in this matchup. On January 26 2011 11:59 Griffith` wrote: +1 air armor makes vikings very cost-effective against mutas. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, once Mutalisks would take direct engagements versus Vikings with losses, where this comes into play, the game is so far developed that there is so much shit firing in the sky that math gets rough. But I of course can cover it if further investigation makes sense. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
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Zephan
Canada29 Posts
On January 26 2011 15:55 TheHumanSensation wrote: Any armour is great vs mutas, because the bounce turns from 9/3/1 into 8/2/0. Even +1 ground armour by itself is great for helping against muta worker harass. Are you sure it does 0? I believe that there isn't any 0, but rather half, but I'm not sure.... don't quote me on this. Also, your TvZ section, for mech attack +1, is pretty crucial after the zerg gets +1 ground carapace. with +1 ground carapace, it takes 2 shots for a tank (sieged obviously) to kill a zergling (baneling?), but with +1 ground weapons, a zergling can't survive a tank shot. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
Minimum damage taken is 1. you can test it easily for example using a zerg/marine,low dmg vs a high armor unit | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 26 2011 16:21 Zephan wrote: Are you sure it does 0? I believe that there isn't any 0, but rather half, but I'm not sure.... don't quote me on this. Also, your TvZ section, for mech attack +1, is pretty crucial after the zerg gets +1 ground carapace. with +1 ground carapace, it takes 2 shots for a tank (sieged obviously) to kill a zergling (baneling?), but with +1 ground weapons, a zergling can't survive a tank shot. As mentioned above, this is true, but not exactly a critical upgrade but a response to a critical upgrade (correlated Nash equlibria), thus why not mentioned. A damage upgrade always counters a critical armor upgrade (as adding at least +1 damage compared to adding exactly +1 armor) Banelings are always oneshots, regardless of armor. | ||
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Sarchasm
South Africa64 Posts
though i need to work on the timing for throwing my forge down ;P | ||
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deeshoo
United States319 Posts
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Bellygareth
France512 Posts
In no way you'll be in a position where your 1 ling will fight a 1 sieged tank. You'll have 2/3 siege tanks and a lot of lings. In that situation: - the splash damage doesn't do 100% dmg per shot. That means that the +1 carapace saves exactly 1 ling in the group (the one targeted by the siege tank). The other lings receive mostly the same damage - Once there is 2 tanks sieged, it won't matter how many carapace upgrade you have or how many +1 attack they have they'll destroy the pack of lings anyway Seriously in what real game situation is that a critical upgrade? | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 26 2011 21:31 Bellygareth wrote: The +1 carapace for lings against siege tanks nonsense needs to stop period. In no way you'll be in a position where your 1 ling will fight a 1 sieged tank. You'll have 2/3 siege tanks and a lot of lings. In that situation: - the splash damage doesn't do 100% dmg per shot. That means that the +1 carapace saves exactly 1 ling in the group (the one targeted by the siege tank). The other lings receive mostly the same damage - Once there is 2 tanks sieged, it won't matter how many carapace upgrade you have or how many +1 attack they have they'll destroy the pack of lings anyway Seriously in what real game situation is that a critical upgrade? Maybe in the situation "One siege Tank on cliff shoots at your lings"? | ||
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Bellygareth
France512 Posts
On January 26 2011 21:40 kazansky wrote: Maybe in the situation "One siege Tank on cliff shoots at your lings"? Well it kills one ling in one shot the rest survives because the splash damage doesn't do 100% of the initial damage... | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 26 2011 21:43 Bellygareth wrote: Well it kills one ling in one shot the rest survives because the splash damage doesn't do 100% of the initial damage... Well, uhm, wow. I am overwhelmed. Congratulations on not reading the OP i guess? Definition A critical upgrade is an damage or armor upgrade in the game, that changes the amount of hits the units takes to get killed by another unit. | ||
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Bellygareth
France512 Posts
On January 26 2011 21:55 kazansky wrote: Well, uhm, wow. I am overwhelmed. Congratulations on not reading the OP i guess? So the post is only theorycrafting and shouldn't be used as a reference for ingame decisions ? | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 26 2011 21:59 Bellygareth wrote: So the post is only theorycrafting and shouldn't be used as a reference for ingame decisions ? Exactly. You shouldn't get the urge in the middle of a game based on the information of this thread: "Wow, i just feel my tanks now need that one hit less". It is a information source that can be recalled, when designing a build and making decisions, on how reordering of upgrades can effect certain situations. Not a guideline "you, Sir, need these upgrades!". As stated, these are mostly sterile situations that can have more or less influence in very certain situations. Not more, not less. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The sieged Siege Tank has three radii of damage levels, each of which correspond to a differing damage level. Units within .4687 of the target are dealt full damage, units from a distance of .4687 to .7812 are dealt 50% of the full damage, and units from a distance of .7812 to 1.25 are dealt 25% of the full damage. ie, the splash does deal 100% to a small radius so a siege tank can kill multiple lings with 1 shot. Ie. it is reasonable effective to get ling carapace. Carapace is also better then attack against marines imo because as banelings & lings are melee units they tend to receive more damage then deal it. Armor is better then attack on melee units because it helps them receive less damage while they are closing in. All those lings and banelings that die before getting damage in did benefit from their armor upgrade, they don't benefit at all from an attack upgrade. @ kazansky, nice work on this but I would have really liked to see the actual data in a more easily readable table or format. You're using way too many words which makes it too hard to look at the actual data. Also it would be much better to put differences in percentages as well, this makes it much easier for people to judge what critical upgrades are or not. In general i'd say that attack/armor upgrades that increase survivability/effective DPS by more then 15% are really good and by more then 25% are critical. Also sometimes you are ignoring stuff by simply calling everything upgrade disadvantage or upgrade advantage. For example 1 protoss armor doesn't cancel out 1 zergling attack at all. A 1/0 roach takes 10 shots to kill a 0/0 stalker, but a 2/0 roach takes 9 shots to kill a 0/1 stalker, so your statement that upgrade advantage lets it go from 11 to 9 is incomplete. The whole use of upgrade advantage / disadvantage is just quite incomplete for protoss as it would only work when P would actually get the shield upgrade which they rarely do. | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 26 2011 22:13 Markwerf wrote: @ kazansky, nice work on this but I would have really liked to see the actual data in a more easily readable table or format. You're using way too many words which makes it too hard to look at the actual data. Also it would be much better to put differences in percentages as well, this makes it much easier for people to judge what critical upgrades are or not. In general i'd say that attack/armor upgrades that increase survivability/effective DPS by more then 15% are really good and by more then 25% are critical. I admit that tables would have been nice and I might add this in a version 2.0, the process of this was more "lining out what upgrades do what" and then motivating it in words for further interest then naked numbers, as they can be accessed otherwhere. A second reason is that i didnt find out a proper method yet to post data tables visually pleasing on TL. So I choose to word the analysis a bit and just line out the facts, but once I've got a bit spare time, i might add data tables aswell. Also sometimes you are ignoring stuff by simply calling everything upgrade disadvantage or upgrade advantage. For example 1 protoss armor doesn't cancel out 1 zergling attack at all. A 1/0 roach takes 10 shots to kill a 0/0 stalker, but a 2/0 roach takes 9 shots to kill a 0/1 stalker, so your statement that upgrade advantage lets it go from 11 to 9 is incomplete. The whole use of upgrade advantage / disadvantage is just quite incomplete for protoss as it would only work when P would actually get the shield upgrade which they rarely do. I only conceided +1 so far unless outlined otherwise, so it stays consistent. If unit A attacks unit B, upgrade advantage means +1 vs +0, equal means +0 vs +0 and disadvantage means +0 vs +1. Further investigation might come up with additional reasonable higher critical upgrades, but its harder to cover because of what to actually compare to, but everyone starts on +0, so here the thesis always holds. I believe I worded that out, but I might be mistaken, I will reread into. Why exactly does 1 protoss armor not cancel out zergling attacks? And I ignored shield upgrades completely for the very reason you mentioned. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
Zerglings with 0/2 needs 5 hits from 0/0/0 stalkers Stalkers with 1/0/0 only needs 4 hits on 0/2 Zerglings Stalkers with 1/0/0 needs 5 hits on a 0/3 Zergling Your TvZ chart doesn't list Mutalisks as enemy units for Bio Attack( Only zerglings/hydras/roaches ) | ||
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kazansky
Germany931 Posts
On January 26 2011 22:33 nalgene wrote: Shouldn't the toss units have 0/0/0 ? Including shields for their units...? Zerglings with 0/2 needs 5 hits from 0/0/0 stalkers Stalkers with 1/0/0 only needs 4 hits on 0/2 Zerglings Stalkers with 1/0/0 needs 5 hits on a 0/3 Zergling Your TvZ chart doesn't list Mutalisks as enemy units for Bio Attack( Only zerglings/hydras/roaches ) I decided not to list too many higher upgrades yet before the game is figured out more, unless there is popular demand? And for TvZ, wow, jeez, yeah, I somehow missed that, thanks. Will add it when I'm at home again. | ||
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