|
On February 04 2011 03:29 nalgene wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 18:31 kazansky wrote:On January 28 2011 08:52 Black Gun wrote:
one very crucial thing is missing:
thors with +3 attack twoshot roaches with 0 or 1 armor upgrades.
thors deal 30(+3) x2 damage, roaches have 145 life with 1 base armor. with 0/1 armor upgrades, a +3 thor (39 dam x2) will do 38/37 dam per single shot, and there are 4 such shots in 2 thor attacks. this yields a "twoattack-damage" of 152/148 respectively, meaning the thor will twoshot instead of 3shot the roaches.
additionally, +2 attack means that thors kill mutas faster. this means that a thor-centric mech play in tvz relies heavily on attack upgrades. but ofc the armor upgrades also are very effective on thors. in other words: to fight fully upgraded thors, roaches need at least 2 armor upgrades or they get melted. Correct, I didn't look on that before, will be added, thanks. Although I will not change it to critical (yet) because it is too match development depending and I want to wait for a while until the game is figured out more. On a sidenote, Thor vs Mutalisks was already mentioned on Sidenote  On January 28 2011 09:25 W2 wrote:
PvT stats for +attack are misleading.
You are right that +attack does not affect how many hits to take down a full hp marine. But you never engage full-hp marines. The most likely scenario would be stimmed marines, which have 10 less hp. And +1 ground weapons means zealots need 1 less swing. As stated in Presumptions, I made Marines always 45 to cover stimmed shielded and unstimmed unshielded Marines. The more special the case gets (in this case stimmed unshielded Marines), the less this Thread is a real help because, although true, it is not a given that this will be crucial in one year, and also mentioning every single combination would blow the article up unneccessarily. I can also compute every hit counter for TvP once a EMP goes off aswell, of course, but this does not really fit the case in my eyes. But if the player has enough medivacs, they could stim ahead of time and it wouldn't really cost them anything to keep it at 55 HP prior to engaging hostiles.
That is true.
But first, when I take in account every possibility on stim and heal, you come up with 6 different setups per matchups only for Marauder and Marines, it starts to burst the borderline and gets too specific.
Second Hand, at the point where you have enough Medivacs to heal up your whole Bio Ball, they game is so far progressed that critical upgrade math isn't viable anymore from my point of view. At least not until the game is not boiled down further, too much changing at the moment in the meta-game to take these things in account yet.
|
|
|
+1 air attack does not give mutas +3 damage overall - that would be too good. AFAIK it gives +1, +0.3, +0.1 for each bounce respectively.
|
On April 02 2011 20:22 Alpina wrote:
+1 air attack does not give mutas +3 damage overall - that would be too good. AFAIK it gives +1, +0.3, +0.1 for each bounce respectively.
I certainly hope you're right. I've been told otherwise but i'll confirm before posting again.
|
|
|
Wrong, that only seems so on the first attack.
The mutalisk does fractional damage if it has upgrades and the improvement is ineed +1, +0.3, +0.1
10 attacks will do +10, +3 and +1 damage with +1 attack on the bounces, the rounding down only makes the first attack do +1 +1 +1 actually.
Muta upgrades are thus not really that effective as the bounces will go to the minimum of 0.5 pretty quickl if armor is upgraded by the opponent. Especially in ZvP upgrading attack is not that great as the bounces will do 0.5 almost always anyway when guardian shield is up, in ZvT it is more effective as most terran units have a base armor of 0.
|
"+1 Mech Attack: no effects on kill efficiency. On a Sidenote, with +2 Attack lets Mutalists die in 2 Shots instead of 3(thanks to Saechiis), and Thors with +3 Attack kills Roaches with only 0 or 1 Armor Upgrade in 2 Shots instead of 3 (Thanks to Black Gun)"
I always think that +1 Mech Attack Tanks kill zerglings with one less shot than without the upgrade..
so in fact, i should upgrade the armor upgrades before if i go mech?
|
On April 03 2011 01:29 saaaa wrote:
"+1 Mech Attack: no effects on kill efficiency. On a Sidenote, with +2 Attack lets Mutalists die in 2 Shots instead of 3(thanks to Saechiis), and Thors with +3 Attack kills Roaches with only 0 or 1 Armor Upgrade in 2 Shots instead of 3 (Thanks to Black Gun)"
I always think that +1 Mech Attack Tanks kill zerglings with one less shot than without the upgrade..
so in fact, i should upgrade the armor upgrades before if i go mech?
You get +1 on siege tanks to kill armor-upgraded zerglings in one shot.
|
I was surprised to see that mutalisk attack +1 is actually pretty useless
|
ok.. also in fact i should upgrade mech attack instead of mech armor, because 1 shot zerglings and 2 shot mutas on +2.
But the thread opener wrote that mech terran player prefer the armor upgrades.
So what is better to upgrade?
|
+2 weapons vikings kill unupgraded vikings in one less volley.
|
I'd like to point out that a lot of the Zerg upgrade numbers are incorrect due to Zerg health regeneration.
For instance, +1 weapons on infantry does not lower the amount of hits it takes a Marine to kill a Zergling.
|
|
|
|
|
With 1.4 at the gates and marching in, I'm now redoing the math on the actual patch data.
Sadly, I am not able to edit my OP at the moment, so Patch 1.4 Hellion Analysis has to take point here:
1.4 Hellion Upgrade Math Inside
+ Show Spoiler +Worker Analysis+ Show Spoiler +The first big question is, how do worker hits change, and how do upgrades affect them now? - Probes and Drones are killed in 3 hits by vanilla hellions aswell as +1 Hellions, unless they have +1 armor, then it takes 4 hits.
- With blue flames, Hellions kill them in 3 hits regardless of armor upgrade, but +1 Blue Flame Hellions only need 2 hits.
- SCVs with their 45 hitspoints (and Marines aswell) take 4 hits, regardless of armor upgrade, from vanilla hellions, but only 3 against +1 Hellions.
- Blue flame Hellions kill SCVs on 3 hits no matter what.
The next question, how is TvZ affected? - Lings get shot on 3 hits by standard hellions, 2 shots with blue flames, upgrades don't change anything.
- Hydras against standard hellions get killed in 6 shots, survive the 6th if they have carapace upgrade. On Blue Flame, they die after 5 hits, with or without carapace, and even 4 if +1 for Hellions is out.
Will this change anything for and against the sons of Aiur? - Zealots take 12/11/10 hits on upgrade advantage, even setup and disadvantage against standard hellions. But Blue Flame makes them die in 9 hits, even with armour, and even 8 with a +1 Upgrade.
- Sentries and HTs need 6 hit to kill with standard hellions regardless of upgrades. 5 hits are neccessary, with or without armor upgrade, and 4 with a +1 advantage.
- Stimmed Marines (for normal Marines see SCV Analysis) are killed in 3 shots without and 2 shots with Blue Flame, upgrades don't change anything.
- Shield Marines unstimmed take 4 hits without and 3 hits with Blue Flame, +1 attack does not change this. A armour upgrade on marines however adds one additional hit.
Conclusion
Important to note is, that this conclusion does only regard the effect of upgrades on the Hellions itself and against Hellions, for further analysis, check the OP, and consider the statements regarding Hellions in the OP as outdated.
 versus 
+1 carapace does only help against unupgraded Hellions for the workers, the Zergling hits are totally uneffected, and Hydras come so late that Blue Flame should already be out, therefore +1 Carapace does not pay itself against Hellion armies.
versus
The question as always is, Blue Flame, +1 Attack, or both? For worker harassment, both together is a must to get 2-shots. If planning a defensive style and only defending, the Blue Flame is to be preferred before +1 Attack
 versus
Armour just for workers does not really pay off, and Zealots only profit aslong as no Blue Flame is out, for Sentries and HTs it does not make much difference.
versus
+1 Changes hit counts on Zealots, with or without Blue Flame, and on workers with Blue Flame, aswell as on Sentries and HT with Blue Flame. So a combination of both is the best choice.
versus
Blue Flame Hellion upgrade changes the hits against marines by 1 aswell as worker hits, but even more the hit count on Hellions. The +1 Attack Upgrade, once Blue Flame is out, does not have significant influence on the hit counters at all.
|
I don't like that it says marines with +1 attack kill zerglings in 1 fewer hit. They frequently don't due to health regen on the lings. 6 into 35 is 6 hits, but 7 into 35 just barely would be 5. The little bit of extra health from regen makes it require a 6th hit much of the time.
|
On January 26 2011 04:16 kazansky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:44 Shikyo wrote:
Even though you explain it, you still should take into account the fact that Zerg units heal 1 hp immediately after taking damage, without delay, and that regen will always make a difference in all cases except a group of marines(or something else without a projectile) firing simultaneously.
That being said, I'm pretty sure I've seen a chart or something similiar a while ago, but I'm sure this is useful for the people who haven't.
I was torn long about it but decided not to. Zerg units dont heal instantly, for example, banelings oneshot zerglings with damage 35 to 35 sharp. And i did some testing with hitting zerglings with zerglings, it takes a delay of a few seconds (unless i was drunk that day). Additionally, I used the search function repeatidly to look out for such information and couldnt find it, so I might have missed it.
They DO heal instantly immediately after taking damage, IF they're still alive. The only units that oneshot zerglings with 35 damage precisely are banes and tanks. If you took 5 +1 marines and had them attack a +0 armor ling once "simultaneously", the ling survives with 1 HP.
|
They DO heal instantly immediately after taking damage, IF they're still alive. The only units that oneshot zerglings with 35 damage precisely are banes and tanks. If you took 5 +1 marines and had them attack a +0 armor ling once "simultaneously", the ling survives with 1 HP.
Sometimes it doesn't though. I tried it like 20 times in the unit tester with 5 on 1 ling. Without stim, it almost never shoots simultaneously enough, but occasionally does.
It does so MORE often with stim, though not always. (Maybe about 1/3-1/2 of the time).
|
On September 21 2011 04:14 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 04:16 kazansky wrote:On January 26 2011 03:44 Shikyo wrote:
Even though you explain it, you still should take into account the fact that Zerg units heal 1 hp immediately after taking damage, without delay, and that regen will always make a difference in all cases except a group of marines(or something else without a projectile) firing simultaneously.
That being said, I'm pretty sure I've seen a chart or something similiar a while ago, but I'm sure this is useful for the people who haven't.
I was torn long about it but decided not to. Zerg units dont heal instantly, for example, banelings oneshot zerglings with damage 35 to 35 sharp. And i did some testing with hitting zerglings with zerglings, it takes a delay of a few seconds (unless i was drunk that day). Additionally, I used the search function repeatidly to look out for such information and couldnt find it, so I might have missed it. They DO heal instantly immediately after taking damage, IF they're still alive. The only units that oneshot zerglings with 35 damage precisely are banes and tanks. If you took 5 +1 marines and had them attack a +0 armor ling once "simultaneously", the ling survives with 1 HP.
I have to disagree with you based on my tests. Unless regeneration function has changed in between, the regeneration is applied in 3 seconds intervals after the initial damage. Or you are talking about Broodwar
|
On September 21 2011 05:20 kazansky wrote:I have to disagree with you based on my tests. Unless regeneration function has changed in between, the regeneration is applied in 3 seconds intervals after the initial damage. Or you are talking about Broodwar
I get the impression its applied very often, but it doesn't accumulate enough to show +1 hp until about 3 seconds pass. So often things survive with "1hp" but it's really some small fraction of 1hp, and it rounds up.
I don't even think it always rounds up, just it definitely does near 0hp.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
