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I've been using the 11 overpool 18 hatch build lately, and seeing as it's more economic than any other pool first build I am having a hard time understanding why you would prefer another opening just because you can get ling speed faster.
As far as I can tell, there is no early game threat that you will have to face where ling speed would make the sole difference between losing and surviving. Assuming 18 hatch/18 gas you'd get ling speed out in time to deal with any real threats. What am I missing?
Yeah a terran can send out a hellion to harass before then, but if you stay on creep and use your queen then you should be able to delay him until you can get speed and before he reaches a critical mass of hellions. Toss can do 2gate pressure but you don't need speed to counter that and should probably throw down an extractor and roach warren as soon as you scout it, rather than bothering with ling speed.
Obviously ZvZ is different and you will need to rush speed if you plan on doing any sort of fast expansion.
So can anyone think of why ling speed is considered so critical to have right away?
Also, I'm not saying ling speed is bad. It is a very nice upgrade to be able to harass, engage with lings, run by empty wallins, etc., but none of this occurs until the mid game when speed will be finished anyway.
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map control, vision of army composition and defense vs allin's also can denie any fast expos. Just get the 100 gas then pull off the drones til 2nd queen pops on a 14 pool 18 hatch
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In ZvP guys get ling speed to deal with (dual) stalker harass. Certain maps a fast spine is fine but other maps it's not that viable. Also for a fast spine you normally need to do either a fast hatch of a relatively fast hatch, not sure how quick this 11pool business is.
ZvT I don't see any real rushing to get ling speed. People get it after expansion is up normally and before lair.
Only matchups I've seen speedling openings recently are ZvZ and ZvP. ZvZ is obvious and ZvP I have already mentioned.
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Getting early ling speed is just a safer way to play.
Every Protoss plays differently and many Terrans are trying different ways to pressure zergs and having ling speed just lets you react easier to your opponents tatics/cheese/build.
In game 2 of the finals for TSL qualifiers Kas used a 1rax reaper FE that punished Ciaras lack of speedlings. And in game 1 he went for blue hellions which speed lings were needed to stop.
Im not saying its risky not to get ling speed faster its just nice to have if your opponent goes for some kinda early pressure.
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On January 11 2011 06:54 aka_star wrote:
map control, vision of army composition and defense vs allin's also can denie any fast expos. Just get the 100 gas then pull off the drones til 2nd queen pops on a 14 pool 18 hatch
Map control and vision can just as easily be done with 3 non-speedlings. Defense vs allins comes after you get speed out anyway.
I think denying expos ling speed might be better, but in that case you would want a more aggressive build rather than the 11/18 econ build, since econ won't be your focus. You still might be better off with the 11/18 since you'll have more larvae to be aggressive with lings.
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Fast speed gives you control over the map until the opponent has enough to protect his scouts. Also, speed lings are a great way to threaten a backstab even when the opponent has a sizable force.
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On January 11 2011 06:59 heyyouyesyou wrote:
Getting early ling speed is just a safer way to play.
Every Protoss plays differently and many Terrans are trying different ways to pressure zergs and having ling speed just lets you react easier to your opponents tatics/cheese/build.
In game 2 of the finals for TSL qualifiers Kas used a 1rax reaper FE that punished Ciaras lack of speedlings. And in game 1 he went for blue hellions which speed lings were needed to stop.
Im not saying its risky not to get ling speed faster its just nice to have if your opponent goes for some kinda early pressure.
Wouldn't using queens be enough to stop 1rax reaper pressure? I'm talking about getting a slightly later ling speed instead of sacrificing economy for OMG ASAP ling speed. It should also be out before blue flame hellions anyway.
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On January 11 2011 06:57 Numy wrote:
In ZvP guys get ling speed to deal with (dual) stalker harass. Certain maps a fast spine is fine but other maps it's not that viable. Also for a fast spine you normally need to do either a fast hatch of a relatively fast hatch, not sure how quick this 11pool business is.
ZvT I don't see any real rushing to get ling speed. People get it after expansion is up normally and before lair.
Only matchups I've seen speedling openings recently are ZvZ and ZvP. ZvZ is obvious and ZvP I have already mentioned.
Thanks for this. I would still think good micro + staying on creep + more larvae would be better than fast speed to deny stalker harass, at least for the brief period before ling speed would finish anyway.
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Two points (from the low-diamond Terran perspective). First, hellions outrun normal lings even on creep, which can make things unpleasant without expenditure of other resources (e.g., spines). Second, it's not all about the "difference between losing and surviving" early game; it's much easier for a Terran to take a second base if there are no speedlings flying around the map, taking towers, etc.
Not saying you now need to start doing it every time, but I think those are a couple of the reasons why it's usually researched pretty early.
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On January 11 2011 07:06 Aoi_10 wrote:
Two points (from the low-diamond Terran perspective). First, hellions outrun normal lings even on creep, which can make things unpleasant without expenditure of other resources (e.g., spines). Second, it's not all about the "difference between losing and surviving" early game; it's much easier for a Terran to take a second base if there are no speedlings flying around the map, taking towers, etc.
Not saying you now need to start doing it every time, but I think those are a couple of the reasons why it's usually researched pretty early.
You can fend off 1-2 hellions if you stay on creep by your queen, and by the time more come out speed should be done.
As far as terran fast expanding, I am not sure if ling speed would finish in time to pressure safely, that might be another good reason.
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For ZvT, I personally get ling speed because it allows me to safely transition into Lair play with an extremely resource-light unit (think about how far down the road that is with a simple 100 gas investment early on). Lings are almost always better than Roaches, and getting speed for them allows me to use blings and lings in tandem for some nice pincer attacks to hold off those marine/marauder/tank pushes that tend to come out just a little bit too soon for mutas.
Basically, it comes down to lings vs roaches in the early game, and lings are just better in ZvT, ling speed is a natural first move.
For ZvZ, I don't find ling speed necessary at all, depending on map and position of course. Roaches are the work-horse unit in ZvZ, so skipping ling/bling shenanigans and moving straight into a roach/expand move is very viable and can even get you ahead in upgrades. Still, ling speed has its own benefits, when managed correctly, speedlings can tie roaches up in their own base and give you all the freedom you need for a double-expand or other risky maneuvers.
Here, I'd say its 50/50 depending on how you and your opponent are playing. Ling speed is a great first move, second move after an early bling bust, or skip it entirely and go straight for roaches, all 3 are viable.
In ZvP, I purposely hold off on ling speed in favor of +1 melee. If you're going to use lings in this MU, you have to deal with the fact that everything Protoss comes out with 1 base armor, and getting +1 melee is a 25% dmg boost to a very powerful, very fast, easily mass-able early-game unit. 2-stalker harass can be a bit difficult with slow-lings, but setting up a crawler at your nat and keeping proper map control can hold that off from doing any major damage. When +1 melee and speed finish though, you will rip map control out of the P players hands and set yourself up for a strong mid-game.
In this MU, I would say speed-first is actually slightly less awesome than +1 melee first or roach play, speed upgrade is more of a 2nd move IMO.
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On January 11 2011 07:20 Jermstuddog wrote:
For ZvT, I personally get ling speed because it allows me to safely transition into Lair play with an extremely resource-light unit (think about how far down the road that is with a simple 100 gas investment early on). Lings are almost always better than Roaches, and getting speed for them allows me to use blings and lings in tandem for some nice pincer attacks to hold off those marine/marauder/tank pushes that tend to come out just a little bit too soon for mutas.
Basically, it comes down to lings vs roaches in the early game, and lings are just better in ZvT, ling speed is a natural first move.
For ZvZ, I don't find ling speed necessary at all, depending on map and position of course. Roaches are the work-horse unit in ZvZ, so skipping ling/bling shenanigans and moving straight into a roach/expand move is very viable and can even get you ahead in upgrades. Still, ling speed has its own benefits, when managed correctly, speedlings can tie roaches up in their own base and give you all the freedom you need for a double-expand or other risky maneuvers.
Here, I'd say its 50/50 depending on how you and your opponent are playing. Ling speed is a great first move, second move after an early bling bust, or skip it entirely and go straight for roaches, all 3 are viable.
In ZvP, I purposely hold off on ling speed in favor of +1 melee. If you're going to use lings in this MU, you have to deal with the fact that everything Protoss comes out with 1 base armor, and getting +1 melee is a 25% dmg boost to a very powerful, very fast, easily mass-able early-game unit. 2-stalker harass can be a bit difficult with slow-lings, but setting up a crawler at your nat and keeping proper map control can hold that off from doing any major damage. When +1 melee and speed finish though, you will rip map control out of the P players hands and set yourself up for a strong mid-game.
In this MU, I would say speed-first is actually slightly less awesome than +1 melee first or roach play, speed upgrade is more of a 2nd move IMO.
Again, the thread is about normal timing ling speed vs super fast ling speed, not getting ling speed vs. never getting ling speed.
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Well what are you defining as "normal timing" vs "super fast"?
14 hatch 14 pool 14 gas is pretty normal in ZvT I'd say, would you call that super fast?
14 pool 13 gas is pretty normal in ZvZ, would you call that super fast?
I think your build would have a lot more ZvT issues with an 18 hatch when it comes to 2 rax marine pressure than any of your worrying about gas timing, but if you want "normal" vs "fast" you need to define them.
edit: went through the OP again, you're not talking about "normal timing" you're talking about "very late" timing. The only race that can get away with taking gas so late in general is Terran due to how strong the Marine is in the early game. Protoss don't try and justify 18+ gas as a general opening either.
Having an 18 gas standard is going to be a game-ender vs early Terran pressure and take a lot of your options away vs Protoss. Getting gas around 14 supply doesn't really hinder your economy, so I don't know why you would be against that, but I guess its just one of those things you need to play with. If slowlings are working for you right now, keep on with it until you get to the point where you decide they're just not cutting it.
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On January 11 2011 07:05 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 06:57 Numy wrote:
In ZvP guys get ling speed to deal with (dual) stalker harass. Certain maps a fast spine is fine but other maps it's not that viable. Also for a fast spine you normally need to do either a fast hatch of a relatively fast hatch, not sure how quick this 11pool business is.
ZvT I don't see any real rushing to get ling speed. People get it after expansion is up normally and before lair.
Only matchups I've seen speedling openings recently are ZvZ and ZvP. ZvZ is obvious and ZvP I have already mentioned. Thanks for this. I would still think good micro + staying on creep + more larvae would be better than fast speed to deny stalker harass, at least for the brief period before ling speed would finish anyway.
Yea I've seen guys delay for spines without speed. It's doable.
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It gives you a lot of mobility and the opportunity to be extremely aggressive and harass the opponent. Also, it gives you map control, vision, and IMO the biggest thing, it makes it so that the enemy can't retreat. If you try to retreat with speedlings on your back, then they can just keep picking off your units while you run away. Obviously if you have a big enough army, you can just turn around and kill them, but for example Stalker vs. Roach, If stalker loses, then they can just run away. Roaches aren't fast enough to catch them unless they have speed.
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In a few QXC games ive seen as well as a couple of GSL matches from season 3 (cant remember who) when the terran player has scouted a delayed gas they have opened with some reapers and really done some good damage. I dont think a terran would open reapers vs. a gassing speed that would allow for early speedlings, but rest assured a GOOD terran will consider the map and see your late gas and send you some reapers that you may not be able to stop before really put some hurt on you. Maybe the late gas on steppes is okay or another map with very little cliff space, but most maps if you get a late gas the terran can do some serious damage with even just 1 reaper.
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"I've been using the 11 overpool 18 hatch build lately, and seeing as it's more economic than any other pool first build I am having a hard time understanding why you would prefer another opening just because you can get ling speed faster.
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another victim of tl strat forums. 11 overpool 18 hatch isnt the most economic build, nor the most economic pool-hatch build
ling speed is for defence, if you find that all those rushes could be stopped just as easily or better with other builds, well, go for them, GL + Show Spoiler +(you wont really find such a build)
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I'm not 110% sure on what exact timing you want ling speed, but I find ling speed very very helpful in distracting opponents and scouting.
Granted I'm more of a 2v2 player, I noticed that having a control group of about 10-12 speedlings that take the opportunity to do a run by into a mineral line once you've scouted them sending their army to you is very effective as not only can you kill workers but to delay/cut their reinforcements.
Like others have already stated, theres only 3 things to do with your 1st 100 gas. 1) Lair, 2) Speedling, 3) B ling. So pick your poison.
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On January 11 2011 07:36 Jermstuddog wrote:
Well what are you defining as "normal timing" vs "super fast"?
14 hatch 14 pool 14 gas is pretty normal in ZvT I'd say, would you call that super fast?
14 pool 13 gas is pretty normal in ZvZ, would you call that super fast?
I think your build would have a lot more ZvT issues with an 18 hatch when it comes to 2 rax marine pressure than any of your worrying about gas timing, but if you want "normal" vs "fast" you need to define them.
edit: went through the OP again, you're not talking about "normal timing" you're talking about "very late" timing. The only race that can get away with taking gas so late in general is Terran due to how strong the Marine is in the early game. Protoss don't try and justify 18+ gas as a general opening either.
Having an 18 gas standard is going to be a game-ender vs early Terran pressure and take a lot of your options away vs Protoss. Getting gas around 14 supply doesn't really hinder your economy, so I don't know why you would be against that, but I guess its just one of those things you need to play with. If slowlings are working for you right now, keep on with it until you get to the point where you decide they're just not cutting it.
Ling speed finishes around 6:20 with gas after hatch.
The 2 rax pressure is not an issue because you get more larva from 11 overpool until about 5 minutes, at which point you are only slightly behind.
You can't cleanly take an early gas with 11 overpool before your hatch is down, you just don't have enough resources to get queens, overlords, drones, keep larva count low, etc.
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I love it when zerg doesn't get ling speed, I always 2rax pressure my zergs... Problem is for them that if they don't have speed they either need like 12 lings to deal with the 5-6 marines or lings and a spine, problem is I just see your spine and walk around, wait for the lings to engage me, if they dont have speed even on creep its very difficult to not just wreck the lings. ESPECIALLY with the spine down. Because I dont need to bother with that spine I dont even need to do any damage, I just have to force you to make way more lings than you want. That sets you back a lot of drones and if I kill the lings that sets you back even more!
Getting speed lets you deal with 5-6 marines with minimal amount of lings. I've seen people throw 6 lings and me and 2 drones and kill all my marines. The surround is key, which you can't do with slow lings very well considering I'd just stutter step and your force slowly dwindles.
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I wondering what do you think about fast ling speed in ZvP. I was recently doing 14 gas 14 pool opening with hatch somewhere at ~20 and then preassuring toss. I just start attacking his core/gate and at the same time I am pumping lings. Usually even when stalker/sentry comes his gate is like with 20% health so I usually just kill it and flood speedlings in his base, so game over.
So maybe it's worth doing something like 13gas/13pool or 12gas/12pool to get speedlings even faster? Or maybe I am missing something here, maybe my opponents just failed to defend that?
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Fast speedlings along with an extra queen for creep tumors gives me a way to make my minerals more valuable for defence. Main reason is that you will be able to get surrounds much more consistently, and wont need as many banelings during the early game where you really don't have any gas to spare.
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So many people talking about 11 overpool, and I still haven't seen a single pro use it...
If you can defend without ling speed, why not go hatch first ?
If you can't go hatch first, why choose a risked 11overpool instead of a speedling openings ?
Also with 11 overpool you are blind when you choose your opening. With 14gas or 14hatch, you may already have scouted your opponent, and adapt to their build & location.
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Australia8532 Posts
1) Hellions - good luck getting a surround without speed
2) Marine kiting - much easier to defend an early hatch with ling speed
3) 2 stalker pressure early own - very hard to deal with without speed
It's about safety and securing your expansion; it's also a very useful ability to have anyway
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Ok, so anyone can answer my question? 
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i single hellion can kill infinite lings without ling speed
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I used to do the 11 overpool 18 hatch in ZvT but i stopped doing it.
And not primarily because of the ling speed, but if you 18 hatch its alot harder to defend against early bunker pushes, even if you make the lings faster!
I do it almost every game against protoss tho! :D
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On January 20 2011 21:10 Alpina wrote:Ok, so anyone can answer my question?
Your opponents are utterly failing to defend against your pressure. There is no reason you should successfully take a cybernetics core out with a 14 gas 14 pool. They should have, at the very least, a zealot and a stalker with more stalker/sentries warping in every ~30 seconds. This is more than enough army to stop early ling shenanigans.
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i think it was because of the reaper, helion, stalker and marine kiting mostly. but I think it can be delayed a bit. If i see 15 nexus im fine with spending first 100 on lair and going for a roach burrow timing attack
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On January 20 2011 21:47 Jermstuddog wrote:Your opponents are utterly failing to defend against your pressure. There is no reason you should successfully take a cybernetics core out with a 14 gas 14 pool. They should have, at the very least, a zealot and a stalker with more stalker/sentries warping in every ~30 seconds. This is more than enough army to stop early ling shenanigans.
Well I just now tried doing this and killed like 5 guys in a row in masters ^^
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It's a different way of opening. With a 14 pool 14 gas I can be sure to put my hatch down at 20 food 90% of my games. You also deny any early aggression.
And I feel safe to pump a lot of drones when I know i can make zerlgings with speed if I see any units coming to my base early game.
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Going back to a recent Day9 daily, Speedling openings are more about what you don't see than what you see.
In a lot of cases, pushing against an opponent with Speedlings requires that you are entirely committed to your push: if you come across the map and find out you don't actually have enough units to engage, Speedlings can chase your units down and kill them. To use an analogy you may be familiar, it's like pushing with Hydras off-creep: retreating isn't much of an option, so you need to choose your pushes carefully.
Speedlings deny any kind of pylon-blocking garbage (though so do slow lings), but they also mean you can chase down any workers on the map to effectively eliminate your opponent's vision and prevent any kind of proxy from going on.
Speedlings keep your opponent playing a lot less aggressively (for fear of a runby or counter) and require your opponent to have real defensive capabilities before being able to take a given expansion. This is all compounded by the fact that your opponent's vision is severely limited, while your own should be excellent: Speedlings are perfect scouts.
All in all, it provides a very stable style of play that's difficult to mess with. This is not only nice for peace of mind and for limiting the scope of strategies you need to be able to deal with, but also for allowing you to get a lot of Drones pretty reliably.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
As a Protoss player, the more Zerg delay ling speed, the more I like it.
It just makes me so much more comfortable. I can push and know I can retreat.
I'd advise all Zergs not to bother with speed early on :D
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On January 21 2011 01:49 Dominator1370 wrote:
Going back to a recent Day9 daily, Speedling openings are more about what you don't see than what you see.
In a lot of cases, pushing against an opponent with Speedlings requires that you are entirely committed to your push: if you come across the map and find out you don't actually have enough units to engage, Speedlings can chase your units down and kill them. To use an analogy you may be familiar, it's like pushing with Hydras off-creep: retreating isn't much of an option, so you need to choose your pushes carefully.
Speedlings deny any kind of pylon-blocking garbage (though so do slow lings), but they also mean you can chase down any workers on the map to effectively eliminate your opponent's vision and prevent any kind of proxy from going on.
Speedlings keep your opponent playing a lot less aggressively (for fear of a runby or counter) and require your opponent to have real defensive capabilities before being able to take a given expansion. This is all compounded by the fact that your opponent's vision is severely limited, while your own should be excellent: Speedlings are perfect scouts.
All in all, it provides a very stable style of play that's difficult to mess with. This is not only nice for peace of mind and for limiting the scope of strategies you need to be able to deal with, but also for allowing you to get a lot of Drones pretty reliably.
Some good points, but I've been wondering about why I get insta ling speed against toss for a couple weeks now. Last night I compared a replay of myself getting rolled by a toss push that Sen easily defended. I went like 14 gas 14 pool and Sen's first gas was on like 25 or so. He had 11 more drones and a bigger army by the 7:30 mark... Obviously he's one of the best Zergs in the world and I'm the janitor in the master league but he was so insanely far ahead of me that I have to wonder how much that early gas is costing me. Losing an early drone + not having 3 drones on minerals for awhile... maybe it's big? I'll have to investigate more.
If ling speed finishes at 6:30 (not sure of the exact timing) then that might be better for defending 4 gates, but I have to think delaying it (or not getting it at all?) is probably much better for defending the other pushes that come a little later (stargate, etc.)
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My general gas timings are 14 vs protoss (gas first), 21 vs terran, and 16 vs zerg (gas after hatch and pool).
I really really really really really really really favor gas first vs protoss or a very quick gas after pool for a couple of reasons. It completely shuts down stalker harass. Without ling speed, the better players you are going to see, the better their stalker harass will be, and there's really nothing you can do to stop it. A spine crawler can be bypassed. It also protects against any early 4 or 3-gates as well as giving you total map control. You can search for and kill any probes he has on the map. Now you have complete control on the map from a very early point in the game. He doesn't know whether you have 4 speedlings or 50...
Verse terran I find limited benefits of early gas because during his early pushes such as 2 rax, you will not have speed anyway. Also all of terran harass can be shut down with spine crawlers. And you're lings are already faster than marines to begin with. I don't find a whole lot of advantages of early gas, sometimes I might wait until 25ish to get gas, it depends on how many drones I was able to make. I still get ling speed first, but it is very delayed.
I get my gas in zvz so that I can either go ling speed first if he opens hatch first as well, or I can skip ling speed and get roaches if he 1 bases as ret teaches in his zvz. Pretty standard.
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On January 21 2011 02:03 Neo.NEt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 01:49 Dominator1370 wrote:
Going back to a recent Day9 daily, Speedling openings are more about what you don't see than what you see.
In a lot of cases, pushing against an opponent with Speedlings requires that you are entirely committed to your push: if you come across the map and find out you don't actually have enough units to engage, Speedlings can chase your units down and kill them. To use an analogy you may be familiar, it's like pushing with Hydras off-creep: retreating isn't much of an option, so you need to choose your pushes carefully.
Speedlings deny any kind of pylon-blocking garbage (though so do slow lings), but they also mean you can chase down any workers on the map to effectively eliminate your opponent's vision and prevent any kind of proxy from going on.
Speedlings keep your opponent playing a lot less aggressively (for fear of a runby or counter) and require your opponent to have real defensive capabilities before being able to take a given expansion. This is all compounded by the fact that your opponent's vision is severely limited, while your own should be excellent: Speedlings are perfect scouts.
All in all, it provides a very stable style of play that's difficult to mess with. This is not only nice for peace of mind and for limiting the scope of strategies you need to be able to deal with, but also for allowing you to get a lot of Drones pretty reliably. Some good points, but I've been wondering about why I get insta ling speed against toss for a couple weeks now. Last night I compared a replay of myself getting rolled by a toss push that Sen easily defended. I went like 14 gas 14 pool and Sen's first gas was on like 25 or so. He had 11 more drones and a bigger army by the 7:30 mark... Obviously he's one of the best Zergs in the world and I'm the janitor in the master league but he was so insanely far ahead of me that I have to wonder how much that early gas is costing me. Losing an early drone + not having 3 drones on minerals for awhile... maybe it's big? I'll have to investigate more. If ling speed finishes at 6:30 (not sure of the exact timing) then that might be better for defending 4 gates, but I have to think delaying it (or not getting it at all?) is probably much better for defending the other pushes that come a little later (stargate, etc.)
I'm not sure what push you're talking about, but again, as Day9 pointed out, one of the great things about having Speedlings on the map already is the ability to deny or delay the Protoss's ability to get that pylon down for warping in with early Warpgate pushes. If the Protoss can't simply have the pylon down already but instead has to walk across the map with a small army to and then sit there and defend while they build a pylon and warp in more units, you'll have tons more time to prepare.
In regards to a Stargate push, I know I'd personally like to experiment a bit more with getting some extra Queens early (remember, you've got your pool up much sooner). They're great defensively, they help a lot with creep-spread moving forward in the game, and best of all, they're larva-free. In a hatch-first build, you're drowning in larva for a little bit, so that isn't as important, but making better use of that additional production queue should probably prove pretty beneficial to a build with an earlier pool.
Also, 11 Drones is a lot. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I'd be amazed if going gas-pool was the only factor. You probably end up with a few less larva as compared to a hatch-first build, but you have the resources to produce with a second Queen when your hatch finishes in a gas first build, while your second Queen is usually relegated to dropping a creep tumor with her initial energy if you hatch first, so it's not like you're missing out on cycles and cycles of injects. It's not ripping on anyone (least of all coming from someone like me) to say that a good portion of that difference is probably due to Sen's macro.
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In PvZ I'll go double stalker harass if I don't see an early gas - nevertheless, and that's important, you don't actually have to GET ling-speed!
The mere fact that I scout an early gas means I'll stay defensive, probably going sentry expo. I've played some opponents who went fast lair, which I think is really good because you get roach with burrow to defend vs 5 gate attacks and such.
I think especially in PvZ people should abuse the fact more, that every protoss likes going sentry expo and that an early gas could easily "trigger" this playstyle.
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EPT
