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I've been using the 11 overpool 18 hatch build lately, and seeing as it's more economic than any other pool first build I am having a hard time understanding why you would prefer another opening just because you can get ling speed faster.
As far as I can tell, there is no early game threat that you will have to face where ling speed would make the sole difference between losing and surviving. Assuming 18 hatch/18 gas you'd get ling speed out in time to deal with any real threats. What am I missing?
Yeah a terran can send out a hellion to harass before then, but if you stay on creep and use your queen then you should be able to delay him until you can get speed and before he reaches a critical mass of hellions. Toss can do 2gate pressure but you don't need speed to counter that and should probably throw down an extractor and roach warren as soon as you scout it, rather than bothering with ling speed.
Obviously ZvZ is different and you will need to rush speed if you plan on doing any sort of fast expansion.
So can anyone think of why ling speed is considered so critical to have right away?
Also, I'm not saying ling speed is bad. It is a very nice upgrade to be able to harass, engage with lings, run by empty wallins, etc., but none of this occurs until the mid game when speed will be finished anyway.
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map control, vision of army composition and defense vs allin's also can denie any fast expos. Just get the 100 gas then pull off the drones til 2nd queen pops on a 14 pool 18 hatch
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In ZvP guys get ling speed to deal with (dual) stalker harass. Certain maps a fast spine is fine but other maps it's not that viable. Also for a fast spine you normally need to do either a fast hatch of a relatively fast hatch, not sure how quick this 11pool business is.
ZvT I don't see any real rushing to get ling speed. People get it after expansion is up normally and before lair.
Only matchups I've seen speedling openings recently are ZvZ and ZvP. ZvZ is obvious and ZvP I have already mentioned.
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Getting early ling speed is just a safer way to play.
Every Protoss plays differently and many Terrans are trying different ways to pressure zergs and having ling speed just lets you react easier to your opponents tatics/cheese/build.
In game 2 of the finals for TSL qualifiers Kas used a 1rax reaper FE that punished Ciaras lack of speedlings. And in game 1 he went for blue hellions which speed lings were needed to stop.
Im not saying its risky not to get ling speed faster its just nice to have if your opponent goes for some kinda early pressure.
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On January 11 2011 06:54 aka_star wrote:
map control, vision of army composition and defense vs allin's also can denie any fast expos. Just get the 100 gas then pull off the drones til 2nd queen pops on a 14 pool 18 hatch
Map control and vision can just as easily be done with 3 non-speedlings. Defense vs allins comes after you get speed out anyway.
I think denying expos ling speed might be better, but in that case you would want a more aggressive build rather than the 11/18 econ build, since econ won't be your focus. You still might be better off with the 11/18 since you'll have more larvae to be aggressive with lings.
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Fast speed gives you control over the map until the opponent has enough to protect his scouts. Also, speed lings are a great way to threaten a backstab even when the opponent has a sizable force.
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On January 11 2011 06:59 heyyouyesyou wrote:
Getting early ling speed is just a safer way to play.
Every Protoss plays differently and many Terrans are trying different ways to pressure zergs and having ling speed just lets you react easier to your opponents tatics/cheese/build.
In game 2 of the finals for TSL qualifiers Kas used a 1rax reaper FE that punished Ciaras lack of speedlings. And in game 1 he went for blue hellions which speed lings were needed to stop.
Im not saying its risky not to get ling speed faster its just nice to have if your opponent goes for some kinda early pressure.
Wouldn't using queens be enough to stop 1rax reaper pressure? I'm talking about getting a slightly later ling speed instead of sacrificing economy for OMG ASAP ling speed. It should also be out before blue flame hellions anyway.
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On January 11 2011 06:57 Numy wrote:
In ZvP guys get ling speed to deal with (dual) stalker harass. Certain maps a fast spine is fine but other maps it's not that viable. Also for a fast spine you normally need to do either a fast hatch of a relatively fast hatch, not sure how quick this 11pool business is.
ZvT I don't see any real rushing to get ling speed. People get it after expansion is up normally and before lair.
Only matchups I've seen speedling openings recently are ZvZ and ZvP. ZvZ is obvious and ZvP I have already mentioned.
Thanks for this. I would still think good micro + staying on creep + more larvae would be better than fast speed to deny stalker harass, at least for the brief period before ling speed would finish anyway.
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Two points (from the low-diamond Terran perspective). First, hellions outrun normal lings even on creep, which can make things unpleasant without expenditure of other resources (e.g., spines). Second, it's not all about the "difference between losing and surviving" early game; it's much easier for a Terran to take a second base if there are no speedlings flying around the map, taking towers, etc.
Not saying you now need to start doing it every time, but I think those are a couple of the reasons why it's usually researched pretty early.
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On January 11 2011 07:06 Aoi_10 wrote:
Two points (from the low-diamond Terran perspective). First, hellions outrun normal lings even on creep, which can make things unpleasant without expenditure of other resources (e.g., spines). Second, it's not all about the "difference between losing and surviving" early game; it's much easier for a Terran to take a second base if there are no speedlings flying around the map, taking towers, etc.
Not saying you now need to start doing it every time, but I think those are a couple of the reasons why it's usually researched pretty early.
You can fend off 1-2 hellions if you stay on creep by your queen, and by the time more come out speed should be done.
As far as terran fast expanding, I am not sure if ling speed would finish in time to pressure safely, that might be another good reason.
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For ZvT, I personally get ling speed because it allows me to safely transition into Lair play with an extremely resource-light unit (think about how far down the road that is with a simple 100 gas investment early on). Lings are almost always better than Roaches, and getting speed for them allows me to use blings and lings in tandem for some nice pincer attacks to hold off those marine/marauder/tank pushes that tend to come out just a little bit too soon for mutas.
Basically, it comes down to lings vs roaches in the early game, and lings are just better in ZvT, ling speed is a natural first move.
For ZvZ, I don't find ling speed necessary at all, depending on map and position of course. Roaches are the work-horse unit in ZvZ, so skipping ling/bling shenanigans and moving straight into a roach/expand move is very viable and can even get you ahead in upgrades. Still, ling speed has its own benefits, when managed correctly, speedlings can tie roaches up in their own base and give you all the freedom you need for a double-expand or other risky maneuvers.
Here, I'd say its 50/50 depending on how you and your opponent are playing. Ling speed is a great first move, second move after an early bling bust, or skip it entirely and go straight for roaches, all 3 are viable.
In ZvP, I purposely hold off on ling speed in favor of +1 melee. If you're going to use lings in this MU, you have to deal with the fact that everything Protoss comes out with 1 base armor, and getting +1 melee is a 25% dmg boost to a very powerful, very fast, easily mass-able early-game unit. 2-stalker harass can be a bit difficult with slow-lings, but setting up a crawler at your nat and keeping proper map control can hold that off from doing any major damage. When +1 melee and speed finish though, you will rip map control out of the P players hands and set yourself up for a strong mid-game.
In this MU, I would say speed-first is actually slightly less awesome than +1 melee first or roach play, speed upgrade is more of a 2nd move IMO.
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On January 11 2011 07:20 Jermstuddog wrote:
For ZvT, I personally get ling speed because it allows me to safely transition into Lair play with an extremely resource-light unit (think about how far down the road that is with a simple 100 gas investment early on). Lings are almost always better than Roaches, and getting speed for them allows me to use blings and lings in tandem for some nice pincer attacks to hold off those marine/marauder/tank pushes that tend to come out just a little bit too soon for mutas.
Basically, it comes down to lings vs roaches in the early game, and lings are just better in ZvT, ling speed is a natural first move.
For ZvZ, I don't find ling speed necessary at all, depending on map and position of course. Roaches are the work-horse unit in ZvZ, so skipping ling/bling shenanigans and moving straight into a roach/expand move is very viable and can even get you ahead in upgrades. Still, ling speed has its own benefits, when managed correctly, speedlings can tie roaches up in their own base and give you all the freedom you need for a double-expand or other risky maneuvers.
Here, I'd say its 50/50 depending on how you and your opponent are playing. Ling speed is a great first move, second move after an early bling bust, or skip it entirely and go straight for roaches, all 3 are viable.
In ZvP, I purposely hold off on ling speed in favor of +1 melee. If you're going to use lings in this MU, you have to deal with the fact that everything Protoss comes out with 1 base armor, and getting +1 melee is a 25% dmg boost to a very powerful, very fast, easily mass-able early-game unit. 2-stalker harass can be a bit difficult with slow-lings, but setting up a crawler at your nat and keeping proper map control can hold that off from doing any major damage. When +1 melee and speed finish though, you will rip map control out of the P players hands and set yourself up for a strong mid-game.
In this MU, I would say speed-first is actually slightly less awesome than +1 melee first or roach play, speed upgrade is more of a 2nd move IMO.
Again, the thread is about normal timing ling speed vs super fast ling speed, not getting ling speed vs. never getting ling speed.
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Well what are you defining as "normal timing" vs "super fast"?
14 hatch 14 pool 14 gas is pretty normal in ZvT I'd say, would you call that super fast?
14 pool 13 gas is pretty normal in ZvZ, would you call that super fast?
I think your build would have a lot more ZvT issues with an 18 hatch when it comes to 2 rax marine pressure than any of your worrying about gas timing, but if you want "normal" vs "fast" you need to define them.
edit: went through the OP again, you're not talking about "normal timing" you're talking about "very late" timing. The only race that can get away with taking gas so late in general is Terran due to how strong the Marine is in the early game. Protoss don't try and justify 18+ gas as a general opening either.
Having an 18 gas standard is going to be a game-ender vs early Terran pressure and take a lot of your options away vs Protoss. Getting gas around 14 supply doesn't really hinder your economy, so I don't know why you would be against that, but I guess its just one of those things you need to play with. If slowlings are working for you right now, keep on with it until you get to the point where you decide they're just not cutting it.
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On January 11 2011 07:05 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 06:57 Numy wrote:
In ZvP guys get ling speed to deal with (dual) stalker harass. Certain maps a fast spine is fine but other maps it's not that viable. Also for a fast spine you normally need to do either a fast hatch of a relatively fast hatch, not sure how quick this 11pool business is.
ZvT I don't see any real rushing to get ling speed. People get it after expansion is up normally and before lair.
Only matchups I've seen speedling openings recently are ZvZ and ZvP. ZvZ is obvious and ZvP I have already mentioned. Thanks for this. I would still think good micro + staying on creep + more larvae would be better than fast speed to deny stalker harass, at least for the brief period before ling speed would finish anyway.
Yea I've seen guys delay for spines without speed. It's doable.
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It gives you a lot of mobility and the opportunity to be extremely aggressive and harass the opponent. Also, it gives you map control, vision, and IMO the biggest thing, it makes it so that the enemy can't retreat. If you try to retreat with speedlings on your back, then they can just keep picking off your units while you run away. Obviously if you have a big enough army, you can just turn around and kill them, but for example Stalker vs. Roach, If stalker loses, then they can just run away. Roaches aren't fast enough to catch them unless they have speed.
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In a few QXC games ive seen as well as a couple of GSL matches from season 3 (cant remember who) when the terran player has scouted a delayed gas they have opened with some reapers and really done some good damage. I dont think a terran would open reapers vs. a gassing speed that would allow for early speedlings, but rest assured a GOOD terran will consider the map and see your late gas and send you some reapers that you may not be able to stop before really put some hurt on you. Maybe the late gas on steppes is okay or another map with very little cliff space, but most maps if you get a late gas the terran can do some serious damage with even just 1 reaper.
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"I've been using the 11 overpool 18 hatch build lately, and seeing as it's more economic than any other pool first build I am having a hard time understanding why you would prefer another opening just because you can get ling speed faster.
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another victim of tl strat forums. 11 overpool 18 hatch isnt the most economic build, nor the most economic pool-hatch build
ling speed is for defence, if you find that all those rushes could be stopped just as easily or better with other builds, well, go for them, GL + Show Spoiler +(you wont really find such a build)
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I'm not 110% sure on what exact timing you want ling speed, but I find ling speed very very helpful in distracting opponents and scouting.
Granted I'm more of a 2v2 player, I noticed that having a control group of about 10-12 speedlings that take the opportunity to do a run by into a mineral line once you've scouted them sending their army to you is very effective as not only can you kill workers but to delay/cut their reinforcements.
Like others have already stated, theres only 3 things to do with your 1st 100 gas. 1) Lair, 2) Speedling, 3) B ling. So pick your poison.
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On January 11 2011 07:36 Jermstuddog wrote:
Well what are you defining as "normal timing" vs "super fast"?
14 hatch 14 pool 14 gas is pretty normal in ZvT I'd say, would you call that super fast?
14 pool 13 gas is pretty normal in ZvZ, would you call that super fast?
I think your build would have a lot more ZvT issues with an 18 hatch when it comes to 2 rax marine pressure than any of your worrying about gas timing, but if you want "normal" vs "fast" you need to define them.
edit: went through the OP again, you're not talking about "normal timing" you're talking about "very late" timing. The only race that can get away with taking gas so late in general is Terran due to how strong the Marine is in the early game. Protoss don't try and justify 18+ gas as a general opening either.
Having an 18 gas standard is going to be a game-ender vs early Terran pressure and take a lot of your options away vs Protoss. Getting gas around 14 supply doesn't really hinder your economy, so I don't know why you would be against that, but I guess its just one of those things you need to play with. If slowlings are working for you right now, keep on with it until you get to the point where you decide they're just not cutting it.
Ling speed finishes around 6:20 with gas after hatch.
The 2 rax pressure is not an issue because you get more larva from 11 overpool until about 5 minutes, at which point you are only slightly behind.
You can't cleanly take an early gas with 11 overpool before your hatch is down, you just don't have enough resources to get queens, overlords, drones, keep larva count low, etc.
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I love it when zerg doesn't get ling speed, I always 2rax pressure my zergs... Problem is for them that if they don't have speed they either need like 12 lings to deal with the 5-6 marines or lings and a spine, problem is I just see your spine and walk around, wait for the lings to engage me, if they dont have speed even on creep its very difficult to not just wreck the lings. ESPECIALLY with the spine down. Because I dont need to bother with that spine I dont even need to do any damage, I just have to force you to make way more lings than you want. That sets you back a lot of drones and if I kill the lings that sets you back even more!
Getting speed lets you deal with 5-6 marines with minimal amount of lings. I've seen people throw 6 lings and me and 2 drones and kill all my marines. The surround is key, which you can't do with slow lings very well considering I'd just stutter step and your force slowly dwindles.
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