EPTSo maybe it's worth doing something like 13gas/13pool or 12gas/12pool to get speedlings even faster? Or maybe I am missing something here, maybe my opponents just failed to defend that?
[D] Why get ling speed immediately? (ZvT, ZvP) - Page 2
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
So maybe it's worth doing something like 13gas/13pool or 12gas/12pool to get speedlings even faster? Or maybe I am missing something here, maybe my opponents just failed to defend that? | ||
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
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Elean
689 Posts
If you can defend without ling speed, why not go hatch first ? If you can't go hatch first, why choose a risked 11overpool instead of a speedling openings ? Also with 11 overpool you are blind when you choose your opening. With 14gas or 14hatch, you may already have scouted your opponent, and adapt to their build & location. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
2) Marine kiting - much easier to defend an early hatch with ling speed 3) 2 stalker pressure early own - very hard to deal with without speed It's about safety and securing your expansion; it's also a very useful ability to have anyway | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
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Crovea
Denmark100 Posts
And not primarily because of the ling speed, but if you 18 hatch its alot harder to defend against early bunker pushes, even if you make the lings faster! I do it almost every game against protoss tho! :D | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 20 2011 21:10 Alpina wrote: Ok, so anyone can answer my question? Your opponents are utterly failing to defend against your pressure. There is no reason you should successfully take a cybernetics core out with a 14 gas 14 pool. They should have, at the very least, a zealot and a stalker with more stalker/sentries warping in every ~30 seconds. This is more than enough army to stop early ling shenanigans. | ||
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AFCArt
Netherlands34 Posts
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On January 20 2011 21:47 Jermstuddog wrote: Your opponents are utterly failing to defend against your pressure. There is no reason you should successfully take a cybernetics core out with a 14 gas 14 pool. They should have, at the very least, a zealot and a stalker with more stalker/sentries warping in every ~30 seconds. This is more than enough army to stop early ling shenanigans. Well I just now tried doing this and killed like 5 guys in a row in masters ^^ | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
And I feel safe to pump a lot of drones when I know i can make zerlgings with speed if I see any units coming to my base early game. | ||
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
In a lot of cases, pushing against an opponent with Speedlings requires that you are entirely committed to your push: if you come across the map and find out you don't actually have enough units to engage, Speedlings can chase your units down and kill them. To use an analogy you may be familiar, it's like pushing with Hydras off-creep: retreating isn't much of an option, so you need to choose your pushes carefully. Speedlings deny any kind of pylon-blocking garbage (though so do slow lings), but they also mean you can chase down any workers on the map to effectively eliminate your opponent's vision and prevent any kind of proxy from going on. Speedlings keep your opponent playing a lot less aggressively (for fear of a runby or counter) and require your opponent to have real defensive capabilities before being able to take a given expansion. This is all compounded by the fact that your opponent's vision is severely limited, while your own should be excellent: Speedlings are perfect scouts. All in all, it provides a very stable style of play that's difficult to mess with. This is not only nice for peace of mind and for limiting the scope of strategies you need to be able to deal with, but also for allowing you to get a lot of Drones pretty reliably. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
It just makes me so much more comfortable. I can push and know I can retreat. I'd advise all Zergs not to bother with speed early on :D | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On January 21 2011 01:49 Dominator1370 wrote: Going back to a recent Day9 daily, Speedling openings are more about what you don't see than what you see. In a lot of cases, pushing against an opponent with Speedlings requires that you are entirely committed to your push: if you come across the map and find out you don't actually have enough units to engage, Speedlings can chase your units down and kill them. To use an analogy you may be familiar, it's like pushing with Hydras off-creep: retreating isn't much of an option, so you need to choose your pushes carefully. Speedlings deny any kind of pylon-blocking garbage (though so do slow lings), but they also mean you can chase down any workers on the map to effectively eliminate your opponent's vision and prevent any kind of proxy from going on. Speedlings keep your opponent playing a lot less aggressively (for fear of a runby or counter) and require your opponent to have real defensive capabilities before being able to take a given expansion. This is all compounded by the fact that your opponent's vision is severely limited, while your own should be excellent: Speedlings are perfect scouts. All in all, it provides a very stable style of play that's difficult to mess with. This is not only nice for peace of mind and for limiting the scope of strategies you need to be able to deal with, but also for allowing you to get a lot of Drones pretty reliably. Some good points, but I've been wondering about why I get insta ling speed against toss for a couple weeks now. Last night I compared a replay of myself getting rolled by a toss push that Sen easily defended. I went like 14 gas 14 pool and Sen's first gas was on like 25 or so. He had 11 more drones and a bigger army by the 7:30 mark... Obviously he's one of the best Zergs in the world and I'm the janitor in the master league but he was so insanely far ahead of me that I have to wonder how much that early gas is costing me. Losing an early drone + not having 3 drones on minerals for awhile... maybe it's big? I'll have to investigate more. If ling speed finishes at 6:30 (not sure of the exact timing) then that might be better for defending 4 gates, but I have to think delaying it (or not getting it at all?) is probably much better for defending the other pushes that come a little later (stargate, etc.) | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
I really really really really really really really favor gas first vs protoss or a very quick gas after pool for a couple of reasons. It completely shuts down stalker harass. Without ling speed, the better players you are going to see, the better their stalker harass will be, and there's really nothing you can do to stop it. A spine crawler can be bypassed. It also protects against any early 4 or 3-gates as well as giving you total map control. You can search for and kill any probes he has on the map. Now you have complete control on the map from a very early point in the game. He doesn't know whether you have 4 speedlings or 50... Verse terran I find limited benefits of early gas because during his early pushes such as 2 rax, you will not have speed anyway. Also all of terran harass can be shut down with spine crawlers. And you're lings are already faster than marines to begin with. I don't find a whole lot of advantages of early gas, sometimes I might wait until 25ish to get gas, it depends on how many drones I was able to make. I still get ling speed first, but it is very delayed. I get my gas in zvz so that I can either go ling speed first if he opens hatch first as well, or I can skip ling speed and get roaches if he 1 bases as ret teaches in his zvz. Pretty standard. | ||
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:03 Neo.NEt wrote: Some good points, but I've been wondering about why I get insta ling speed against toss for a couple weeks now. Last night I compared a replay of myself getting rolled by a toss push that Sen easily defended. I went like 14 gas 14 pool and Sen's first gas was on like 25 or so. He had 11 more drones and a bigger army by the 7:30 mark... Obviously he's one of the best Zergs in the world and I'm the janitor in the master league but he was so insanely far ahead of me that I have to wonder how much that early gas is costing me. Losing an early drone + not having 3 drones on minerals for awhile... maybe it's big? I'll have to investigate more. If ling speed finishes at 6:30 (not sure of the exact timing) then that might be better for defending 4 gates, but I have to think delaying it (or not getting it at all?) is probably much better for defending the other pushes that come a little later (stargate, etc.) I'm not sure what push you're talking about, but again, as Day9 pointed out, one of the great things about having Speedlings on the map already is the ability to deny or delay the Protoss's ability to get that pylon down for warping in with early Warpgate pushes. If the Protoss can't simply have the pylon down already but instead has to walk across the map with a small army to and then sit there and defend while they build a pylon and warp in more units, you'll have tons more time to prepare. In regards to a Stargate push, I know I'd personally like to experiment a bit more with getting some extra Queens early (remember, you've got your pool up much sooner). They're great defensively, they help a lot with creep-spread moving forward in the game, and best of all, they're larva-free. In a hatch-first build, you're drowning in larva for a little bit, so that isn't as important, but making better use of that additional production queue should probably prove pretty beneficial to a build with an earlier pool. Also, 11 Drones is a lot. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I'd be amazed if going gas-pool was the only factor. You probably end up with a few less larva as compared to a hatch-first build, but you have the resources to produce with a second Queen when your hatch finishes in a gas first build, while your second Queen is usually relegated to dropping a creep tumor with her initial energy if you hatch first, so it's not like you're missing out on cycles and cycles of injects. It's not ripping on anyone (least of all coming from someone like me) to say that a good portion of that difference is probably due to Sen's macro. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
The mere fact that I scout an early gas means I'll stay defensive, probably going sentry expo. I've played some opponents who went fast lair, which I think is really good because you get roach with burrow to defend vs 5 gate attacks and such. I think especially in PvZ people should abuse the fact more, that every protoss likes going sentry expo and that an early gas could easily "trigger" this playstyle. | ||
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