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I have encountered this build multiple times. The other T proxies a factory /w armory and sends all scvs to repair thors.
I have never won once against this. It's impossible unless i get a stroke of dumb luck.
my oppoment gave me advice to scan? but srsly. no good terran scans until it is late game where mules are less helpful. Besides... is that all this game has become? just random cheese that the winner is decided by pure luck?
There was nothing i could do, when i saw the thor incoming it was way to late to place bunker. or maybe i am missing something?
wats is the point of even trying anymore...
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No good terran uses their third 50 energy to scan? You gotta be kidding me. TvT thors are so easy to defend.
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Keep in mind that scv repair will be fixed with the new patch. It's supposed to come out sometime this week.
With weird tech rushes I always find the best way to deal with it is be generally aggressive.
Edit: Watched Replay. Saw that you did shift click the scvs. He had about the same number of marines as you but additionally a thor??? Something should tip you off that this is a macro issue. Your money is much much higher than his consistently throughout the game. In general, if you're trying to FE you might want to throw down a bunker regardless.
I mean seriously, you had the money. If you're not going to make units at the very least make defenses.
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Wall, make bunker, auto repair, target fire things that aren't called Thor -> easy win. If you aren't going to scan then make a bunker every game... it is not a big investment and prevents you from losing in a stupid way.
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I almost always put a bunker infront of my ramp to prevent early T rushes.
That said, if you have more than 3 marauders and a few marines out, and you focus the thor with stim, the SCVS wont be able to repair it. Alternatively, a single tank and 6-7 marines will crush this push. Pull scvss if you have to to help.
Seems like a scouting problem more than a build problem. I have never lost to this and it happens fairly regularily.
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Six blue flame hellions will eat the SCVs for breakfast, and then you can just throw marauders at him until he dies.
Edit: What I'm trying to say is, you really can't hope to take out the thor with the SCVs on him unless you can do an absurd amount of damage all at once (nuke, a dozen tanks, etc). Otherwise you've got to kill the SCVs, but in my experience, target-firing the SCVs is not very helpful because the thor will just kill you. Hellions should be able to wipe out the SCVs in droves, and maybe tanks can do the same thing if you've got enough of them, but it's still going to be rough.
On a barely relevant note, if you play Team Fortress 2, here is a rough equivalent of what you're fighting:
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Why should i blind counter an early rush in every game. it seems counter intuitive considering it will hold me back 100 minerals - exp since i like getting a quick nat.
now that I mention it. I did see an early hellion come out of nowhere, away from his army.
Should i of speculated he is proxying a factory from that?
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You want to scan regardless. Not just to know if he is going Thor, but maybe he is going 3rax or some other stupid strategy. How many times have you told yourself that "Wow I really lost that game because I wasted a mule so that I could scan his base"?
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since your mineral count was high anyway, a scan would'nt have hurt. And you can't blame the outcome of a game on just a build. There are so many other things that go into it.
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On January 11 2011 02:28 FrayzZeUsher wrote:
wats is the point of even trying anymore...
Theres your problem right there. Instead of actually trying your friends advice, or play some practice matches where your friend does some thor rushes; you give up and come to the TL forums.
As for the thor rush itself: if you have early expanded, you might just be out of luck. But as terran on one base, its fairly easy to hold, and even more so after the next patch (which should have been out last week..)
The choice between mule and scan is very easy: Do I want to lose now, or possibly lose later?
If you know exactly what he's doing, theres ofcourse no point in the scan. But if you're unsure, and you know a cheese could be coming, just toss that scan down.
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First off, when you pushed into his base, you saw a bunch of marines, so you know he's not going marauders.
What does a Terran do when he techs? He either pushes with a siege tank (which would have also killed you), Thor, banshee, or drops.
You, however, expanded, without any defense against these one base builds.
Yes, a scan could've helped a lot, but the proxy would've been hard to figure out. The reason you can scan is because you expanded, and he didn't.
On a map like this, a bunker will also help you a lot. The money is not wasted since you can salvage it if you discover he's doing something else. Not to mention he has a reactored barracks, so you know you will be facing many marines. That would've delayed time for your siege mode, which was already late since you built your factory around 180 gas.
Also, in TvT minerals are not as important as gas, so don't be afraid to waste minerals if it can HELP YOU NOT DIE.
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On January 11 2011 02:51 FrayzZeUsher wrote:
Why should i blind counter an early rush in every game. it seems counter intuitive considering it will hold me back 100 minerals - exp since i like getting a quick nat.
now that I mention it. I did see an early hellion come out of nowhere, away from his army.
Should i of speculated he is proxying a factory from that?
Anyone else think this guy doesn't listen at all? The point is that you had a ton of money and had way less than he did, if you just macroed properly a thor rush wouldn't of been a big deal. Especially since you can scout these kinda things... You don't have to scan, you can just send an scv. if he has thor tech you should have some sort of tech yourself, (2rax, 3rax, tanks, starport, banshees, medivacs, vikings etc. If your air units aint patrolling the map you aint using them properly.
Just send medivacs in random locations.
But really if you kept your macro up and spent your Damn money you would of been fine. Btw the best "counter" to a thor that is getting repaired is to pull 20 or so scvs and move in with your army, get the scvs to attack the other scvs and hopefully the thor will focus fire the scvs. You just have the think the situation through before you go complain on a forum.
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It's only impossible against the special edition thors (thors with wings) because scv are hidden behind him and you can't target them.
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For someone with subpar macro you seemed very intent to not miss mules... Yet you aren't getting all that you could get from them...
Sadly, almost any build beats this. 3rd mule = scan, see that he's doing funny business, rush out and find the funny business, try to kill it before the tech unit gets out, if not, bunker up and target fire SCVs.
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This actually happened to me yesterday and I was pretty upset @ the outcome as well. After i went for a poke with 5 marines+helion I came back home with 2 rines+helion, had 3 more rines in base and a siege tank and came just short of killing the first thor (scvs repaired just in time). I was repairing my siege tank with 6-7 scvs but the thor dps is too high and overpowered me anyway. It wasn't the best game I've ever played, but the effectiveness of the strategy was apparent.
Some notes that I took after losing that game...
-The terran walled in TVT, that should have been my first indication
-When I went in for the poke, I saw only marines at his choke point behind a rax and 2 depots, this is a big sign that he is going something gas heavy as he had no gas units at choke and there was only 1 barracks with no attachment, another big clue
-If I had scouted the proxy factory instead of going in for a pressure poke, I would have easily held the attack. This tells me not to move out for a poke without sending a scouting scv to the realistic proxy locations(If I am in the dark and don't know what tech he is going)
-Make a reaper to scout his base around the same time you would be able to finish a factory to see if he has a factory in his base, if not, you can assume its either proxied or he fast expanded.
-1 cloaked banshee will counter him hard if you are able to scout his strategy in time, thor's have such limited mobility so you should be able to do some serious damage and take map control easily.
-If the thor catches you off guard at your ramp, stall it with some incomplete buildings (ebays work well) while you make rines/rauders/helions/2 bunkers by your scvs. Don't engage the thors until you have to, and when you do engage them make sure that your helions are focus firing lines of scvs while the rine/rauders should target the thor. Grab 6-8 scvs and put them on auto repair to keep your bunkers/helions alive for a bit longer.
I don't know how much help that is, but basically you just need to stay on top of your scouting to prevent this from happening I think. It's very difficult to stop if you're caught off guard.
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Look, really, I'm begging you, PLEASE no more hyperbole in the thread titles... you're killing me man...
Is it really that hard to just write "Having a lot of trouble with thor rush in TvT"?
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On January 11 2011 02:51 FrayzZeUsher wrote:
Why should i blind counter an early rush in every game. it seems counter intuitive considering it will hold me back 100 minerals - exp since i like getting a quick nat.
now that I mention it. I did see an early hellion come out of nowhere, away from his army.
Should i of speculated he is proxying a factory from that?
No, the fact of the matter is that you just didn't have units. "holding you back 100 minerals" makes NO SENSE if you're not spending your money (which you did because you almost got up to 600 minerals for a second there, and a CC costs 400). So I will simply repeat myself: If you're choosing not make more units (ie more rax and such) then you NEED defenses. You do not have a choice. You opted for a FE, which is fine, but then you better be able to defend it.
It is not a "Blind Counter." You are opting not to have units to defend. Which means you need defenses to defend. I don't understand what is confusing about this.
Your opponent had just as much stuff + a friggin' Thor. You are obviously not going to win. If that was tanks/hellions instead of a thor, or hell just more rax, you still would have died.
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On January 11 2011 02:28 FrayzZeUsher wrote:Show nested quote +I have encountered this build multiple times. The other T proxies a factory /w armory and sends all scvs to repair thors. I have never won once against this. It's impossible unless i get a stroke of dumb luck. my oppoment gave me advice to scan? but srsly. no good terran scans until it is late game where mules are less helpful. Show nested quote +Besides... is that all this game has become? just random cheese that the winner is decided by pure luck?
There was nothing i could do, when i saw the thor incoming it was way to late to place bunker. or maybe i am missing something?
wats is the point of even trying anymore...
Your premise that scans are a waste is why you think this game boils down to pure luck. If your opponent walls off it's idiotic to think a scan is a waste.
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I think its bad mental process to think of it as impossible. At worst and it beats all other builds, which it doesn't, than you can both do a thor rush and then its up to whoever micros better, which means it still is possible. That would actually be kind of funny to watch Watch the replays and try to do what they do so you'll be on even footing at least.
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On January 11 2011 02:28 FrayzZeUsher wrote:I have encountered this build multiple times. The other T proxies a factory /w armory and sends all scvs to repair thors. I have never won once against this. It's impossible unless i get a stroke of dumb luck. my oppoment gave me advice to scan? but srsly. no good terran scans until it is late game where mules are less helpful. Besides... is that all this game has become? just random cheese that the winner is decided by pure luck? There was nothing i could do, when i saw the thor incoming it was way to late to place bunker. or maybe i am missing something? wats is the point of even trying anymore...
No good terran scans? Well do you consider yourself a good terran? GO SCAN. Maybe pros or "good" terrans are confident in their ability to handle any type of situation, but clearly this isn't you. The majority of players want more information as soon as possible. What good are mules if you don't use the money anyway. Mules don't help you when you're dead because you weren't ready.
Your opponent is actually the lucky one for you not scanning or scouting. It's well within your power to eliminate "dumb luck." You are just being stubborn.
But yea there is no point in trying anymore if this is how you play the game.
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Looking over the replay I think your main problem is just your macro. You are almost always banking lots of resources and because of this everything you build is late:
1) You were building up to 400 minerals as if you were going to throw down your CC, but then built your factory, with about 300 minerals and 200 gas banked at the time. This means your helions and then tanks were late.
2) You built your CC when you had 500 minerals.
3) You built a starport when you had about 300/300 banked. Again, late.
In general, I'm just confused by your build for multiple reasons. First, you have about a 150-200 APM average for the game, yet your build is super clunky (buildings late, supply blocked briefly a couple times, etc.). Perhaps you should lay off the spamming to raise your APM and focus on important tasks instead.
Second, why are you taking the early gas if you aren't planning on using it? You are going for a fast expand, you don't build your factory with your first 100 gas, you end up banking 250+ gas at one point. You make exclusively marine/helion up until the very end.
Third, you refuse to build a bunker (as others have said) even though you have very few units to protect yourself. Again, as others have said, it wouldn't really have mattered what sort of one-base push the other guy was doing. A 3-rax stim push would've killed you just as easily (because you had no bunker and no siege tanks yet), as well as a rax + tank push.
In short, I think you just need to work on your macro (possibly easing off the APM spamming, as it appears you are doing that pretty hardcore), and when going for a FE you need to make sure it's possible for you to defend against one-base strategies.
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I find that a Thor deals with this rush quite well.
A Thor supported by SCV repair can handle it, and then you counter attack while expanding yourself.
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Don't listen to all the people telling you to scan unless you have a very good idea of where to (for instance you scouted the left side of his main with an scv at X amount of time and you scan the other side). Scanning is for expansions and looking at his army composition in a predictable place, not looking for possible tech paths. 9/10 a good player will place their tech in a spot where you're NOT going to scan.
Scout with flying units, barracks/factories, and/or scvs.
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I know many people who always scan around the 6:30 mark. It's an annoying proxy, but can be handled. The new patch will fix the annoyance of not targeting SCVs, as well.
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On January 11 2011 03:50 DoubleReed wrote:
Your opponent had just as much stuff + a friggin' Thor. You are obviously not going to win. If that was tanks/hellions instead of a thor, or hell just more rax, you still would have died.
This is important. You didn't lose because of the uber op thor repair bs. You lost because you didn't macro. As this guy said, you would have lost with just about every other strategy out there anyways. As everybody in this thread points out, macro better and turtle up if you see him on one base using bunkers and such.
A third scan on the base is never bad. Sure, if you can get an scv to find out what he is doing, that's great. But a scan is the next best.
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You fast expanded...
You fast teched...
You didn't take up ANY defensive position AT ALL...
You built Vikings against NO air units...
You built marines from a tech barracks, ignoring all upgrades...
and your army was half his size.
What did you expect to happen?
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Australia326 Posts
I hate to echo everyone, but here's to hoping that you notice the point:
You probably would have lost against any well-executed strat.
Your macro was very sloppy, and your game sense went for a holiday (Expand + tech w/ little defense?). Practice in customs/ against friends/ against AI.
However you'll be glad to hear that post-patch, this rush should be less effective due to SCV repair changes.
Best of luck!
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this thread title is horrible.
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On January 11 2011 02:33 Pokebunny wrote:
No good terran uses their third 50 energy to scan? You gotta be kidding me. TvT thors are so easy to defend.
Nice post it just doesn't help a thing!
Calling things easy is an objective thing. One has not encounetered that strat very often and struggles against it. The other calls it easy because he already knows about it. I lost a game today vs thor opening and dont really have the solution either atm.
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EPT
