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On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts.
Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead.
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I have a few games where I did this, basically waited till the slower immortal army moved out and blinked in his base, also have thrown down a few sentries if the ramp is small enough to delay my base dieing. As long as you have a probe out keep mining your hard out to save 400 and warp in as many units as you can. Only problem I have ran into is if the base trade is even (as in all buildings for both teams will die at about the same time) and they have 3+ immortals, hard to get their pylon they put in your main. Being able to put up a nexus helps survive this since he will have to split.
If I remember can dig up the replays assuming I saved them.
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On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead.
I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped.
Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements.
It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP.
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I've put some thought into dealing with blink rushes some time ago since I mostly do a defensive 2gate opening so a lot of my opponents go blink in response. The best I've come up with to deal with this is to expand with an immortal/zealot composition on 1gas so I can get my expo up before any type of contain is set up. I constantly build immortals while going for blink and +attack upgrades. Then I usually go for DTs to abuse the fact that he his bases are spread out and expand again while transition according to what he's doing.
It is a good idea to get a probe out on the map for some scouting later on. Also a proxy pylon in some obscure location for DTs or scouting zealots is generally wise.
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On March 25 2011 01:00 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead. I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped. Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements. It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP.
The idea is that you spread your bases out so that if he decides to attack at a time that you can't defend, you counter and trade mains. After trading mains, you still have some mining, a bit of production, and a more mobile force, so you win. It sounds like you were barely able to defend, but even if you aren't even close to being able to defend, you still have a good shot to win.
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On March 25 2011 02:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 01:00 Lobber wrote:On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead. I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped. Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements. It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP. The idea is that you spread your bases out so that if he decides to attack at a time that you can't defend, you counter and trade mains. After trading mains, you still have some mining, a bit of production, and a more mobile force, so you win. It sounds like you were barely able to defend, but even if you aren't even close to being able to defend, you still have a good shot to win.
That game I wasn't really gonig for this build it just kind of happened :D
I ususally do it properly don't worry 
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On March 25 2011 04:04 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 02:20 kcdc wrote:On March 25 2011 01:00 Lobber wrote:On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead. I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped. Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements. It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP. The idea is that you spread your bases out so that if he decides to attack at a time that you can't defend, you counter and trade mains. After trading mains, you still have some mining, a bit of production, and a more mobile force, so you win. It sounds like you were barely able to defend, but even if you aren't even close to being able to defend, you still have a good shot to win. That game I wasn't really gonig for this build it just kind of happened :D I ususally do it properly don't worry
I don't believe you Lobber, you never tell the truth :D
Question: If you manage to get a contain, is it better to expand and go double robo for mass immortal vs single base colossus or just tech to colossus yourself, even if you are behind in timing?
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Interesting concept, and seems like it works rather efficiently. All you have to do is make sure your observer doesn't get sniped, huh?
You an even put a proxy pylon that can warp into the observer's vision and warp reinforcements directly into the opponent's main.
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Does this build (3 gate blink I guess) defend against 4 gates? Or does it only work bs 3 gate robo, because that's pretty much all I saw in the replays
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On March 25 2011 21:06 CoolguyBad wrote:
Does this build (3 gate blink I guess) defend against 4 gates? Or does it only work bs 3 gate robo, because that's pretty much all I saw in the replays
If you scout it (4 gate) a 3 gate can hold and is usually the most efficient hold. Basically if you scout it, counter it. Most PvP's after a 4 gate they will either go for blink, or go for colossus, if you defend efficiently and you both go blink you should win, if post 4 gate he goes robo then just go ahead as normal.
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Robo is very slow so obviously, just like Terran mech, it can end in a base race, ive gotten my robo bay picked off by blink stalks one too many times to not consider it the best opener pvp
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I find 3 gate blink to very effective against 4 gate builds, especially ones that focus on zealots. So that's not really a strong counter. I think if you're on a map like metal, I would take some workers off gas, get 3-4 cannons at my ridge, and try to either get a third, or get collusus ball out
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Italy12248 Posts
It's 3 gates that can stop a 4gate though, not getting a fast blink. Blink comes at least 30 seconds (i believe) later than a 4 gate (roughly 6.30 for blink, 6 for a 4gate), so while it's possible to hold off a 4gate with 3 gate, i think it is better to delay blink a bit in that case. As mentioned in the thread however, blink is a good followup after an econ 4gate or a 3gate defense. But then again, i'm just plat, so i might be missing something 
On topic: this looks like an -incredibly- fun way to play pvp, i will definitely try it out.
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Sorry if this is reallyyyy off topic, but how can a 3 gate stop a 4 gate?
I'm just really curious because I've tried to strategy once (and he happened to go robo) and it was brilliant, it's so fun and nerve wrecking at the same time because if you lose your units carelessly he can just move out with a huge army.
I'd really love a strategy that could "counter" 4 gate, because 4 gates are so ugh to me. If you go an all in 4 gate (cut probes) you can lose to a defensive 4 gate, if you go a defensive 4 gate you'll lose to a robo tech since he can get colossus much quicker, but if you go robo you'll lose to an all in 4 gate...that is wayyyy too rock scissors paper for me, so an alternative would be great 8]
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Sorry if this is reallyyyy off topic, but how can a 3 gate stop a 4 gate?
1. ramp.
2. good use of forcefields.
3. good unit positioning and micro.
you can hold your ramp and if he doesnt pull back do enough damage to his army to push out and kill the proxy pylon. then just go expand and win. if he does pull back and keeps up pressure, get another gate to match his 4, and immortals and with superior economy and robofac, you can soon push out and take ur nat and an almost unbeatable resource / tech advantage.
i dont understand why protoss go for blink stalkers pvp, it's a tech all-in to me. you either win or do enough damage to get an economic advantage that you wouldnt have given to the other player by going this (imo) risky tech choice for a (imo) limited tactical advantage (when a ramp is concerned, even with an obs to blink up the wall), or you get rolled over by stalker/colossus shortly thereafter. i think its pretty easy to defend against and beat, but sometimes it isnt of course =)
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Italy12248 Posts
DeepElemBlues, this thread is exactly how to play blink well after/if a blink rush fails: spread out, force base trades, and never engage directly. Of course you get rolled in a direct fight, but with this style, you dont ever (or close to it) engage directly.
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DeepElemBlues, this thread is exactly how to play blink well after/if a blink rush fails: spread out, force base trades, and never engage directly. Of course you get rolled in a direct fight, but with this style, you dont ever (or close to it) engage directly.
To be frank I don't think there is a way to play blink well after/if a rush fails because you should drop it and expand. Maybe if you're lucky the other guy will get lazy and not get blink himself and you can use that fact in a battle later to your advantage. But Protoss harassing Protoss especially after warp is up? Hard to do.
Putting bases out of the way can hurt you economically as they're harder to saturate and easier to kill.
Against a good player, after your rush fails, you won't seize the momentum again unless you're lucky. That's what I think. He could just sit his army in his base and cover his natural with cannons and a few units and obv he could always pick off ur obs if u arent on top of keeping them alive so you cant blink up and do some mischief.
I think it is too risky to continue with if the rush fails, but there are always exceptions =)
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Italy12248 Posts
Again, i'm just a plat player, but i think playing like that once in a while can be doable. Keep in mind that a robo player will have a hard time securing even three bases, because you can harass him nonstop and if he splits his army you can kill half of it and get out before the other half arrives, while you can stay on three or more comfortably; even if eventually he attacks, you just ignore him and basetrade, and you will be advantaged.
The point of spreading your bases is that yes, they are easy to kill, but if he tries to take down just one he will lose his own base in return, leaving you ahead economically.
Even high level players have been doing this style well: one of kcdc's replays is against a top 200 guy, and on state of the game incontrol mentions how axslav has been trying this style.
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The point of spreading your bases is that yes, they are easy to kill, but if he tries to take down just one he will lose his own base in return, leaving you ahead economically.
unless i was scared i wouldnt send all or even most of my army there, honestly just send a probe to proxy pylon a convenient spot and spend a round of warp-ins keeping my army at home to defend. of course after just 1 time of that you would (should) adapt with some defense at these expos.
Even high level players have been doing this style well: one of kcdc's replays is against a top 200 guy, and on state of the game incontrol mentions how axslav has been trying this style.
we'll have to wait and see and try for ourselves if we want and find out, i dont want to discourage you from trying, whatever you have fun doing trying to win =)
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EPT
