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On January 07 2011 23:25 NeoAlmost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:15 PatouPower wrote:
Any decent player will have an observer before you, possibly even 2, and will snipe yours. You can't contain the player without the observer as only 2 immortals + gateways units will totally wreck you... I'm pretty sure blink stalkers have the advantage when it comes to observer sniping.
Hah, yeah, was going to say the same. Having the earlier obs isn't an advantage. You just have to be more alert and get your units there quicker. Also, the blink player isn't using his robo, so it's less painful to make observers.
I have a couple replays I could upload, but I'm not very practiced with the strategy, so it's not at all clean. In the first replay, I make a mistake by taking my natural. My third is wisely spread out which wins me the game, but imagine how much stronger my position would have been had I taken the two unused mains as my 2nd and 3rd.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179046.jpg)
In the other game, I was waaaaaay behind after not realizing he had an expo for a while, blinking into death mutliple times, and just generally playing poorly. I also stupidly cut economy which I do when I'm planning to defend my base, since you need every possible unit against the collosus timing push. However, he tried to take multiple expansions and split his army to defend them, so I was eventually able to whittle him down for the win. I played terribly, but it shows how you can move your stalkers around to get free kills even when you're way behind. There's a lot of movement, so it's a fairly entertaining game.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179050.jpg)
If I play a cleaner game, I'll upload that too.
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Good fortune. The first game I played today was a PvP where I went blink and he went robo. I felt a little vulnerable before my obs got to his base, but once it was there, I was pretty sure I'd win. I managed to pin him in his base until I was spread out across the 3 mains, and when I took the island, he had no way to win a base race. The way it worked out, he left my macro unchecked for too long and I was able to defend comfortably rather than base racing, but I would have liked my chances had he forced the base race earlier.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179071.jpg)
Pick holes in the strategy. I think the best way to deal with it is probably to either all-in ASAP with 1 collosus to break forcefields and bring probes to take the opponent's main or to get blink yourself.
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On January 07 2011 06:17 sti wrote:
The first thing I'd try is just building lots of obs. If you can remove their ability to blink around your ramp you are in a lot less danger.
If using Blink Stalkers/ Obs, you can pick these "obs" you will have around your base. Which will cause you more gas to build more, which will lower your collosi count.
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And again:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179092.jpg)
This guy's pretty decent--was in the last NA Top 200 for what that's worth. I've played against him a lot. His response is a little better. He's aggressive immediately and it quickly comes down to a real base race. I win because blink stalkers are awesome at base races and my mobility allows me to choose when we trade units.
For a gameplan that involves Losing Your Whole Fucking Base(TM), this strategy works stupidly well.
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I'd like to see some replays vs good 4 gates. all blink stalker builds are kind of designed around beating robo-based builds through good timing. Now you're adding a robo and trying not to fight them, which makes sense, but if they are taking the fight to you before you have blink what is your angle?
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 07 2011 03:19 kcdc wrote:
Blink stalkers + observer(s) can typically force a base race against robo compositions on most maps. You keep an obs near his ledge and a spotter at his front door and blink in to his main any time he tries to move out. If the robo player takes his natural, he opens himself up to harass. The blink player can constantly poke back and forth at both fronts picking off pylons, probes and robo facilities and then blink back to safetly. If the robo player tries to split his force to defend the dual-pronged harass, the blink player abuses his superior mobility to combine his stalkers and isolate the robo player's split forces. Ultimately, the robo player is inevitably frustrated by the constant pestering and moves his whole army as one to attack the blink players base. Initiate base race.
Meanwhile, a smart blink player can design his entire strategy around forcing and winning a base race. Instead of taking his natural, he spreads out his bases on opposite corners of the map and takes islands if they're available. Because he never plans to fight head on, he can skimp somewhat on army spending in the mid-game and take extra bases. These tactics give the blink player a huge advantage in the base race. The blink player will be in the robo player's main as soon as the robo player leave his base, allowing the blink player to take out the robo player's production and economy before the robo player makes it across the map. This allows the blink player 2-3 extra rounds of production. The robo player will also have taken his natural allowing the blink player to trade his main for the robo player's main and natural. This will leave the blink player with 2 spread out mining bases while the robo player will be on 0 bases. The blink player also has a huge advantage in mobility which can pin a robo player's army to his last remaining structures while the blink player is free to split his forces.
If the robo player attacks too early, the extra rounds of production may give the blink player the superior army which is an auto-win for the blink player. If the robo player waits too long, the blink player will greatly out-macro the robo player with double the bases which is nearly an auto-win for the blink player.
I've played 10+ games at high diamond, and this works really really well. I'm not sure what a robo player's best response is. Going collosus+blink stalker and accepting a macro disadvantage?
You can do that, or you can just blink up, snipe the Immortal and win.
This does seem like a reasonable way to go about it if you have to abort your attack tho, since you are quite a long way behind.
Best responce for the robo player? Scout the hidden expos and forse the blink player in to a defencive position with harassment before attacking with the bulk of his army.
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On January 07 2011 23:23 Uni1987 wrote:
When i start a game, i aim for a solid win. Not a base race.
A base trade that leads to a victory is a straight win just like any other. Will be trying this btw, thanks kcdc
How does this run vs 4gate though?
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What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 05:17 iokke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:23 Uni1987 wrote:
When i start a game, i aim for a solid win. Not a base race. A base trade that leads to a victory is a straight win just like any other. Will be trying this btw, thanks kcdc
No he has a point. I disagree with any gameplan that involves the "loose my whole fucking base" transition. Thats why I will not expand before I attack with blink stalkers, like OP did, rather use his strategy as a back-up plan in case I get stoped.
By the way, if you watch Genius VS Anypro in GSL, Genius after holding off blink stalkers with Immortals went on to get blink of his own and crush the FE. In the interview he said something about why but I cant quite recall what the reason was.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 05:31 GoldenH wrote:
What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough.
In gold league - sure.
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I like to push early with my first immortal, zealot, stalker, and proxy pylon, so I'd like to ask: does this build have a long startup time?
I've seen 4 gate pushes with ~6-8 stalkers, which would likely beat the push that I use, but with the need for blink and robo, it would drop to 3-4 stalkers which could leave you open to an early push unless you use sentries, at which point I fall back to get another immortal and an observer- which still beats blink stalker composition (immortals are supposed to be the hard counter, no?) so tell me, does this sort of build work against this?
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Ok, I've been using this today as my go-to PvP build to generate replays, and in non-4 gate games, I believe I've won 5 of 5. The closest I've been to losing was when my opponent went immortal-blink stalker. He managed to take out all of my bases and still had the stronger army, but having my extra base longer left with with a lot of minerals and scattered probes to buy time. He was down to 1 building and was guarding it with a force I couldn't beat, but I blinked in from an unexpected angle and was able to snipe it for the win. When I wind up going robo against bilnk, I'll be teching blink for sure. It was definitely a good response.
As for 4-gate, I don't recommend going straight to blink against a 1-gas opponent, particularly one that's saved chrono or has cut probes. The first priority in PvP is always holding the 4 gate. The nice thing about this spread/harass transition, however, is that unlike the 3-gate blink all-in, you don't need to hit that super-early timing window with blink where he only has 1 immortal. If it takes you a minute or 2 longer to get blink, your attack will suck, but you just blink back, make a robo and hide an expansion.
You also don't have to open blink to use this as a transition. You could open with an eco 4-gate or 3-gate and get blink and an obs after your attack dies down. Test timings. This spreading out and base racing is definitely a workable strategy, but there's a lot of ways to get there.
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[B]
By the way, if you watch Genius VS Anypro in GSL, Genius after holding off blink stalkers with Immortals went on to get blink of his own and crush the FE. In the interview he said something about why but I cant quite recall what the reason was.
He had to get blink because Anypro added a sentry so he couldnt come down his ramp, without getting blink right away he had no way of breaking the contain and killing anypro. I didnt notice the TC he built when watching the VoD so i thought he was screwed for sure!
If you look at it like this... okay... anypro spends 400 on a nexus + some probes and stuff, lets say 800 resources for now is dumped into this expansion. So now lets say, Genius scouts the expansion with his observer and knows anypro has spent these resources on the expo. He has X amount of time to get over there before the expo kicks in and he just outright loses to macro. He tries to push down ramp without blink against anypros blink stalker army. Not only is he against a better tactical unit, but the forcefield anypro can throw down from the single sentry he built, can complete eliminate that 800 resource sink he has tied up in an expansion... Without getting blink when he did, Genius loses that game badly. I lost a PvP the exact same way by making the wrong decision earlier in the day, watched that, watched my replays, and realized with blink i had him but for the sentries.... you cant afford to get cut in half because it completely mitigates the disadvantage suffered from putting that expansion down.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:41 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +[B]
By the way, if you watch Genius VS Anypro in GSL, Genius after holding off blink stalkers with Immortals went on to get blink of his own and crush the FE. In the interview he said something about why but I cant quite recall what the reason was. He had to get blink because Anypro added a sentry so he couldnt come down his ramp, without getting blink right away he had no way of breaking the contain and killing anypro. I didnt notice the TC he built when watching the VoD so i thought he was screwed for sure! If you look at it like this... okay... anypro spends 400 on a nexus + some probes and stuff, lets say 800 resources for now is dumped into this expansion. So now lets say, Genius scouts the expansion with his observer and knows anypro has spent these resources on the expo. He has X amount of time to get over there before the expo kicks in and he just outright loses to macro. He tries to push down ramp without blink against anypros blink stalker army. Not only is he against a better tactical unit, but the forcefield anypro can throw down from the single sentry he built, can complete eliminate that 800 resource sink he has tied up in an expansion... Without getting blink when he did, Genius loses that game badly. I lost a PvP the exact same way by making the wrong decision earlier in the day, watched that, watched my replays, and realized with blink i had him but the sentries you cant afford to get cut in half because it completely mitigates the disadvantage suffered from putting that expansion down.
You know there are other ways of breaking the sentry contain when you have a robo without geting blink? (Hint: there are atleast 2 that can be made from the robo, one of them takes as long as blink and the other takes only about 30s to get).
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 08 2011 03:19 kcdc wrote:And again: This guy's pretty decent--was in the last NA Top 200 for what that's worth. I've played against him a lot. His response is a little better. He's aggressive immediately and it quickly comes down to a real base race. I win because blink stalkers are awesome at base races and my mobility allows me to choose when we trade units. For a gameplan that involves Losing Your Whole Fucking Base(TM), this strategy works stupidly well.
Hey its PvP  that should explain everything haha
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so you would rather elevator your units so he can forcefield you out of your own base and just kill you or tech to collossuss while his expansion kicks in rather than getting an ability that increases the efficiency of most of your units? I stand by my opinion that he made the exact correct decision.
Lets say you spend 20 seconds elevatoring down and he walks into your base. Do you elevator back up over 20 seconds why his stalkers kill your base? Does he one round your warp prism and keep your ramp forcefielded?
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Interesting, thanks for sharing 
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:
so you would rather elevator your units so he can forcefield you out of your own base and just kill you or tech to collossuss while his expansion kicks in rather than getting an ability that increases the efficiency of most of your units? I stand by my opinion that he made the exact correct decision.
Lets say you spend 20 seconds elevatoring down and he walks into your base. Do you elevator back up over 20 seconds why his stalkers kill your base? Does he one round your warp prism and keep your ramp forcefielded?
Lets say you use your brain, and FF your own ramp so he can not go up after/while your elevator out.
Lets say teching to colossus when you have a robo out is faster then geting blink when you have no TC.
I dont object that he made a correct desision, question is why.
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When you have immortals, your army is strong but immobile when compared to a blink composition. Collosi help deal with the mobility issue with their range and cliff-walking, but the tech is expensive, so it doesn't help your strength much. Blink helps more with the mobility issue but helps your strength very little. If you don't already have the robo bay, I'd go for blink.
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On January 08 2011 06:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:19 kcdc wrote:And again: This guy's pretty decent--was in the last NA Top 200 for what that's worth. I've played against him a lot. His response is a little better. He's aggressive immediately and it quickly comes down to a real base race. I win because blink stalkers are awesome at base races and my mobility allows me to choose when we trade units. For a gameplan that involves Losing Your Whole Fucking Base(TM), this strategy works stupidly well. Hey its PvP that should explain everything haha
Have you tried this out yet? I'd like to see what other people do with the idea.
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EPT
